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Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
Honest question for the former players out there: what percent of "execution" is attributable to the assistants/coordinators and what percent is attributable to the head coach? I know the head coach sets the tone. But to my eyes, Rice's defense has "executed" better than the offense the past few years, suggesting a certain chunk of "execution" is on the assistants/coordinators (recognizing that the head coach is ultimately responsible for personnel decisions). Of course, failed execution is more obvious on defense (where it often results in a 45-yard TD pass) than offense (where it might merely result in an incompletion, sack, or the QB throwing the ball out-of-bounds).
10-23-2014 10:40 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 10:40 AM)mrbig Wrote:  Honest question for the former players out there: what percent of "execution" is attributable to the assistants/coordinators and what percent is attributable to the head coach? I know the head coach sets the tone. But to my eyes, Rice's defense has "executed" better than the offense the past few years, suggesting a certain chunk of "execution" is on the assistants/coordinators (recognizing that the head coach is ultimately responsible for personnel decisions). Of course, failed execution is more obvious on defense (where it often results in a 45-yard TD pass) than offense (where it might merely result in an incompletion, sack, or the QB throwing the ball out-of-bounds).

A big part of execution is on preparedness and focus/concentration (which at least in part is tied up in heightened motivation), and this is on the head coach. Again, the fish stinks from the head-- we cannot continue to blame the assistant coaches, as it's the head coach who not only sets the tone, demands (or doesn't) accountability of his players and coaches and who hires/fires his assitants. Motivation and the level of aggressiveness/conservative play is dictated by the head coach. Period. And, IMO, as I've oft-stated, this is far and away my biggest issue with Bailiff...and it is not going to change. it is what it is.
10-23-2014 10:48 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
Rather than +1 to many of the comments here and take issue with others.... I am going to summarize them

First, David does a great job of selling Rice. If we were in a p5 conference, I am confident that we would be in the top half of that conference... because just as he does in CUSA, he has a VERY good recruiting winning percentage against his peers. In other words, I expect that he would be slightly above the average in terms of the quality of recruits.

Second, I think David does a credible job with discipline and of coaching schemes that are pretty similar to everyone else's... meaning his performance would also be slightly above average in a p5 conference. The average p5 team is probably ranked around #30-50 and goes to bowls every year.

This would be great for us if we were in a p5 conference, but means nothing for SMU, and though Kansas is p5, he wouldn't have the superior academic product to sell... He might or might not be able to compensate for that with the broader recruiting capabilities. I just don't know.

Certainly some people complain about coaches just because they complain... it IS the nature of fans... but many of us who have had specific complaints are not nearly as malcontent as we are sometimes purported to be. What we recognize is that there is a difference between competing for the top position in a g5 conference (which is often won by a team ranked around 40-60... meaning 70 is 'competitive') and being competitive with many p5 teams. It takes having a team capable of being ranked between 20 and 40... and in my opinion (and that of others), we need to do something ELSE different.

Among the options for that 'something else' is an unpredictable/non-traditional offense... Yes, the wishbone is one of those but so is Oregon's hurry or even an old-school 2 back power I or the veer if that is the talent you can recruit... or attacking 3/3/5s or 3/2/6 or some other defensive variant designed to thwart the 'spread' that most teams run... while running a power rushing offense that takes advantage of the 3/3/5 that most teams run to thwart the spread.

Owlnumbers calls that moving vertically on that recruiting/performance chart... and that is what we are advocating.

While David certainly COULD employ these tactics, it doesn't appear to be in his nature to do so... so THAT is why some people even who like him a whole lot, would not be upset if he chose to move on/advocate him doing so. Frankly i'd take the middle ground and encourage him to 'buy in' to the concept and stay... and I suspect that many of those who don't think he would 'buy in' would be perfectly happy with that result and perhaps even prefer it for the very reasons that people like OO note.

The choices as I see them for us to move to where I want us to be (40-20) are for us to aggressively keep David, but encourage him to be open to philosophical changes... to being seen as being innovative on the field. This WILL mean higher turnover of some key assistants, giving them lots of leash and/or paying them much more, and that is what I would strongly support... while maintaining a strong core of assistants. The other option is to take what we have learned from David's successes AND his struggles and try and find an even better round peg to fit into our square hole. This is not at all without risks, but it is also the nature of the beast... by that I mean, we are not in control of David and his offers. If Kansas came offering $1.5mm/yr, I think we should consider offering stability, familiarity and perhaps $1mm/yr... and he MIGHT stay... but if they offer him $2mm+, I think he'd be hard pressed not to take it for his family and his future. I just don't think we can offer more than a few hundred thousand dollars more per year in total salaries and NOT start beating some top 40 teams... and we shouldn't expect to beat those teams with any consistency unless we DO pay a few hundred thousand dollars more.

Bottom line is that we can celebrate David for all he does well and still want him to do slightly more... and the difference to many of us about whether he stays or goes has more to do with whether we think he WOULD make those changes. His 'upside' to some is therefore based on his willingness, and not his capabilities. I would LOVE to have David take us to that 40-20 range and take us to a p5 conference. I think he could then do what he is far more comfortable doing and STILL have us be ranked 40-20.

I hope that is fair
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2014 12:26 PM by Hambone10.)
10-23-2014 12:20 PM
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75src Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
SMU and Mack Brown would be making a mistake if he is brought in as HC. Mack has reached the age where coaching performance drops off because they are no longer going to do the extra effort to be on top. After a certain age, it gets harder to want to beg a 17 year old to sign with you.

There is a lot of discussion about which P5 coaches need to go, but not much said about who can be promoted to fill the openings. Kansas needs a new HC, but probably so will Florida and Michigan.

I do not see SMU as a promotion for Baliff because they have the same problem Rice has which is being left out of a P5 conference. The AAC is not much better than CUSA. Rice might have to come up with more money to keep Baliff if SMU comes looking but could probably keep him.

Kansas is a different matter since it would have more potential and more available money as a member of a P5 conference. The only shortcoming of Kansas is that football is subordinate to men's basketball at Kansas.


(10-23-2014 10:37 AM)07owl Wrote:  This is more SMU's style: http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ack-brown/
10-23-2014 12:55 PM
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Da.Owl Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 12:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Rather than +1 to many of the comments here and take issue with others.... I am going to summarize them

I hope that is fair

Fair and nicely done.04-cheers
10-23-2014 01:29 PM
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RiceFootball2K5 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 10:24 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 10:18 AM)RiceFootball2K5 Wrote:  1) I think another coach could get more out of the players we have. I am sure that Bailiff and his group of his assistants are not the strongest group of "coaches" in the actual coaching of football sense of the word that we could get. Many, if not most, would be coaching high school if they weren't at Rice. Some of this is due to salary limitations. Our coaches routinely get exposed when we square off with better coaches, and we've discussed at nauseum the letdowns and breakdowns we have a few times a year through the Bailiff era.

2) Bailiff gets Rice and is a good ambassador, and runs a clean program where his players graduate.

3) Bailiff recruits very well given the limitations (academic, conference affiliation, facilities).

I have no doubt we could improve on 1 with a new coaching staff. Zero doubt that we would be better prepared and better coached. Matching Bailiff's record in 2 and 3 would be tough. It's a helluva question, and I'm not sure there is a correct answer.

How much do you think #1 is reflective of Bailiff, as opposed to the rest of his coaching staff? I'm not sure we know the answer to that. He does seem loyal to his staff, arguably to a fault. But I'd really like to see what he could do with more money for assistants & coordinators, because I truly believe assistants and coordinators have a greater roll in "getting the most out of players" (for football) than the head coach (mostly because the team is so large, with so many different groups and sub-groups of players).

Coach Thurmond, to my eyes, appears to be the perfect example of this. Before he arrived, Philip Gaines looked like a guy who could be an elite CB. He was always around the ball and he never got burned. But he also often seemed to be a half-step or full-step away from becoming a playmaker. Then Thurmond arrived and Gaines locked down every receiver in sight and Callahan was intercepting passes left-and-right. Now those guys always had the talent, but Thurmond reallys seems to have helped them take that next step. And the defense has vastly improved since he moved from CB coach to defensive coordinator. I'm not saying Thurmond is the best at what he does, but if Rice had a staff full of Thurmonds under Coach Bailiff, I think that would go a long way.

Thurmond, Sloan, and maybe Lynch are the exceptions to my statement that most of the assistants would be coaching high school ball if they weren't at Rice. Thurmond's resume speaks to this; he's been at some good places before. Sloan was an NFL tight end and has done good work here. I have no doubt he could find a college job elsewhere.

The rest of them though...

Now, how much of that is Bailiff being loyal/unable to hire better coaches due to salary constraints, and how much of that is Bailiff choosing to hire old friends. That I don't know the answer to; none of us do. All that being said, I still stand by my statement that a new coach's staff overall would likely be better than the one we have--purely coaching-wise. Items 2 and 3 in my list above, no clue.
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2014 01:50 PM by RiceFootball2K5.)
10-23-2014 01:47 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
Worth noting that some of the assistants/coordinators that don't get a lot of praise by Parliamentarians for (our perception of) their coaching ability are noted by some publications to be very good recruiters.
10-23-2014 02:01 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 09:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think Bailiff can keep us where we are today, which another coach might not be able to do. Where we are today is we can contend in a really weak conference and get blown out by the big boys.

So there are two questions:
1) Is where we are today good enough?
2) If where we are today is not good enough, can Bailiff get us where we need to be?

Obviously, if the answer to 1) is yes, then any change would be potentially negative. In that case, your concern should be the primary one.

But I think the consensus of opinion on here is that the answer to 1) is no.

I'm willing to go along with whatever consensus you propose...
10-23-2014 02:38 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 10:32 AM)texd Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 10:10 AM)tramile12 Wrote:  Giving Todd Graham credit for James Casey is hilarious. First of all, Casey fell smack dab into his lap, and then he still wasn't going to offer him! Anybody who would want TG back, and thinks DB should go is a complete idiot. Grass is always greener.....

I sure as hell don't want TG back, but the point stands that he did offer Casey, even if "he still wasn't going to."

I don't see much value in viewing Casey as a case study... there aren't many guys out there, so he's a one-of-a-career kind of recruit. Plus, he was self-recruited... I don't see much skill from the coaches as if they found him as a diamond in the rough. I'd put it down as a "don't care" whether Graham gets credit for him or not... I think it was a no-brainer for any coach to give him a scholarship at a school like Rice.
10-23-2014 02:50 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 02:01 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Worth noting that some of the assistants/coordinators that don't get a lot of praise by Parliamentarians for (our perception of) their coaching ability are noted by some publications to be very good recruiters.

vinklarek, for one.

but let's turn this around.

Walt, is there anybody on the staff that you would urge Coach Newguy to keep?
10-23-2014 02:59 PM
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lou Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 02:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 02:01 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Worth noting that some of the assistants/coordinators that don't get a lot of praise by Parliamentarians for (our perception of) their coaching ability are noted by some publications to be very good recruiters.

vinklarek, for one.

but let's turn this around.

Walt, is there anybody on the staff that you would urge Coach Newguy to keep?

Can someone give me some cliffnotes on Coach Newguy? What kind of program does he run?
10-23-2014 03:06 PM
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Klobasnek Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
Nobody has any thoughts on SI naming Mensa as the frontrunner for the SMU gig? How do we think he'd do up there?
10-23-2014 03:07 PM
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talon owl Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 03:07 PM)Klobasnek Wrote:  Nobody has any thoughts on SI naming Mensa as the frontrunner for the SMU gig? How do we think he'd do up there?

I think Chad Morris is the front-runner given his DFW ties. Mensa is a similar mold, but not as proven and doesn't have the program-running experience that Morris has from his HS days.

Curious what kind of money SMU will gin up for this go-round. I assume y'all saw the (likely inaccurate) rumor that they're prepared to offer Mack Brown $4MM per.

There will likely be a not-insignificant delta between what SMU pays and what Tulsa (once Blankenship is gone) will be offering. So I don't see them competing over the same candidates like SI thinks.
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2014 03:33 PM by talon owl.)
10-23-2014 03:22 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 02:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 02:01 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Worth noting that some of the assistants/coordinators that don't get a lot of praise by Parliamentarians for (our perception of) their coaching ability are noted by some publications to be very good recruiters.

vinklarek, for one.

but let's turn this around.

Walt, is there anybody on the staff that you would urge Coach Newguy to keep?

Possibly Thurmond and the special teams coach. That's it.
10-23-2014 04:01 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 12:55 PM)75src Wrote:  SMU and Mack Brown would be making a mistake if he is brought in as HC. Mack has reached the age where coaching performance drops off because they are no longer going to do the extra effort to be on top. After a certain age, it gets harder to want to beg a 17 year old to sign with you.

(10-23-2014 10:37 AM)07owl Wrote:  This is more SMU's style: http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ack-brown/

Will Mack be tainted by the brewing scandal at UNC? 18 years may cover the last one or two years of his tenure there.
10-23-2014 04:02 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 04:02 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 12:55 PM)75src Wrote:  SMU and Mack Brown would be making a mistake if he is brought in as HC. Mack has reached the age where coaching performance drops off because they are no longer going to do the extra effort to be on top. After a certain age, it gets harder to want to beg a 17 year old to sign with you.

(10-23-2014 10:37 AM)07owl Wrote:  This is more SMU's style: http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ack-brown/

Will Mack be tainted by the brewing scandal at UNC? 18 years may cover the last one or two years of his tenure there.
Will SMU care?
10-23-2014 04:08 PM
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temchugh Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 12:55 PM)75src Wrote:  SMU and Mack Brown would be making a mistake if he is brought in as HC. Mack has reached the age where coaching performance drops off because they are no longer going to do the extra effort to be on top. After a certain age, it gets harder to want to beg a 17 year old to sign with you.

I agree. There seems to be a logic that a coach who was mediocre at a power school will be great at a school in a weaker conference (because the opponents are easier?). But hiring a coach "on the way down" seems like it almost never works (unless the coach was fired for reasons unrelated to coaching such as a sex or drugs). For example, Ben Braun was a coach on the way down. Penders is another example.

It seems much better to hire a coach "on the way up" (e.g., Bailiff, Rhodes). Lots of those guys fail, too (cause coaching is hard), but the success rate still seems a lot higher.
10-23-2014 04:49 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 10:10 AM)tramile12 Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 12:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 12:10 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  officially, when did Casey sign his letter of intent?

My understanding was that it was the day before Graham left. Of course TG regarded him as a DE. If Todd had stayed, would we have ever seen Casey on the offensive side of the ball? We'll never know.

Giving Todd Graham credit for James Casey is hilarious. First of all, Casey fell smack dab into his lap, and then he still wasn't going to offer him! Anybody who would want TG back, and thinks DB should go is a complete idiot. Grass is always greener.....

And lets not forget that TG killed one of our players. Harsh yes, and it definitely wouldn't hold up in court. But ask anybody from that team.

The only way the Toad would have stayed was if he also had been named AD. At that time I think he wasn't expecting Tulsa or a job above that to show up so quickly and he saw himself as the savior of Rice athletics. He talked big about keeping Wayne happy and getting him the new scoreboard (which of course was a discounted model from a company going out of business unlike the football board from industry leader Daktronics).

It was at the end of HC Football coaches also being AD but I think he thought being just a winning coach at Rice wasn't enough to get him a P5 offer (to use today's terms) but being an AD who turned the culture around at Rice plus winning football games might give him a shot at someplace like Iowa State or Colorado.

The way he slashed and burned the athletic office personnel certainly gave him the appearance of being AD. I remember Pede trying to tie himself to TG in the hopes of being part of the new TG administration. Chris being named AD changed TG's outlook and he was lucky when the Tulsa job opened up.
10-23-2014 05:58 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
(10-23-2014 04:01 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 02:59 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-23-2014 02:01 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Worth noting that some of the assistants/coordinators that don't get a lot of praise by Parliamentarians for (our perception of) their coaching ability are noted by some publications to be very good recruiters.

vinklarek, for one.

but let's turn this around.

Walt, is there anybody on the staff that you would urge Coach Newguy to keep?

Possibly Thurmond and the special teams coach. That's it.

Patterson is who you are thinking of and I agree. He seems like a solid coach and he is the Canadian connection.
10-23-2014 06:08 PM
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MemOwl Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Coach Bailiff getting mentions for SMU and Kansas Openings...
I think we are 8 pages into an analysis of a unicorn siting.

I don't believe that Bailiff will EVER receive a P5 offer, because there will ALWAYS be non P5 coaches who are doing more with less in more difficult conditions.

SMU is not P5, but I struggle to understand why they would pay a premium to get Bailiff from us, when they can go Southland conference and get both the recruiting network and better execution.

SMU is in a league with Justin Fuente, George O'Leary, and Tommy Tuberville. Hiring Bailiff would be taking a knife to a gunfight.
10-23-2014 06:26 PM
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