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Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
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CliftonAve Offline
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Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
P-Doc states calls for Tuberville's head are premature.

The UC fans demanding Tommy Tuberville's head – "Go see my good friends at Robert Jones hatmakers, tell 'em Tommy sent-cha'' – need to breathe deeply and think happy thoughts of Gunner Kiel being here a couple more years.

It's bad now, but it's going to get better.

It's terrible now, actually. Statistically, the Bearcats have the worst defense in all of Division I football. Their defense is closer to Titanic than titanic. They couldn't stop an igloo fire.

The team that was picked to win the American Athletic Conference very likely won't come close. The Bearcats have had off-field trouble and tragedy. Their home games are on the road, they play in a league that doesn't stir passion. It's disappointing.

That doesn't equal dismissing the coach.

It's impossible to judge a college football coach in two seasons. Even Year 3 is iffy. For at least two seasons, you are playing with people your predecessor brought in. Ideally, you redshirt your first recruiting class. They don't play at all.

Tuberville landed in town in December 2012. That first year of recruits was a hodge-podge. New coach, new staff, kids scratching their heads. The second year the Bearcats recruited well, according to those who make a living judging such things. This year, "We've got 22 committed and they're better than the ones we got last year,'' Tuberville offered this week.

That might be so, or it might be homespun Tubs hokum. The larger point is, a season and a half is not enough to judge a coach. Especially one with Tuberville's pedigree.

CINCINNATI

UC's Tuberville: We will win here
On Tuesday, I presented Tuberville with a page of media notes that included his two-deep roster. That is, his first- and second-team players. "How many guys did you bring in?'' I asked.

Eleven, he said. Recruits and transfers. Eleven out of the 22 starters.

When Butch Jones went 4-8 his first year, did we ask for his head? He followed that up with 10-3 and 9-3, partly because he recruited well.

Brian Kelly was ultra-successful immediately. Some of that owed to Mark Dantonio, who left the cupboard full. Maybe Jones left Tuberville in need of groceries. Or, maybe Tommy really has lost his mojo, a notion he refutes strongly, as you'd guess he might. "I've worked my tail off since I've been here,'' he said.

Point is, we don't know. We won't know for another year, at least.

"It takes four years to get all your players fine-tuned,'' Tuberville said. "You can win games with other people's players. You can lose games with other people's players. You don't define a program until you get three or four years in.''

Is that a self-serving statement? You bet. That doesn't make it false. Nor does it excuse the losses and the hideous play on defense. Dear UC assistants: Please get your players to tackle better. Thank you.

But college coaching is about recruiting. You can't cut players or trade them or sift the waiver wire for replacements. You get what you get. Recruiting is about building relationships and establishing who you are and what your program is all about. That takes time.

"You can't recruit that first year,'' Tuberville said. Especially when you arrive in December, as Tuberville did. "You're selling all new kids on a new staff. This will be our second class, realistically. You can't play with 18-year-olds. They don't know how to work. They don't know how to focus.''

Ideally, a big-time college program redshirts all its freshmen, giving them a year to adjust, get stronger and stop worrying about Homecoming dates. Tuberville hasn't had that luxury, but he has red-shirted as much as possible.

"We had an excellent recruiting class. I'm not going to put them in there. They don't know what they're doing. They don't have enough time to grow up and learn how to play right now. I need them for that extra year,'' he said.

That doesn't help now, of course. As Tuberville admits, "We're not good enough to win now.'' And now is a delicate time. For the sake of perception, the Bearcats simply can't afford to get crushed by Memphis at home, or at middle-of-the-ACC-pack Miami. That won't impress the Big 12.

But demanding change doesn't do anything except lower a fan's blood pressure, temporarily. Ideally, all D-1 football coaches should get five-year contracts. They can't leave before five seasons; nor can they be fired.

That's an entire recruiting cycle. Time enough to make a fair assessment of the coach.

But two years? The man's just getting warmed up. "We do have a clue what we're doing,'' said Tuberville. "Sometimes, it doesn't look like it.''

He deserves time to make the picture clear. It's only fair.



http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../17318581/
 
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 07:51 AM by CliftonAve.)
10-16-2014 05:00 AM
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eastside cat Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
He made very good points in the column. We need to chill.
(10-16-2014 05:00 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  P-Doc states calls for Tuberville's head are premature.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../17318581/
 
10-16-2014 06:00 AM
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JackieTreehorn Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
I'm not gonna pat Daugherty on the back too much. This is a logical approach to the whole situation by anyone who doesn't run around with their hair on fire or doesn't have their own agenda and an axe to grind.
 
10-16-2014 06:32 AM
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wanes Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 05:00 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  P-Doc states calls for Tuberville's head are premature.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../17318581/

Can you paste the story?
 
10-16-2014 07:31 AM
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Ring of Black Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
Liked the article, but especially loved this sentence: "Ideally, all D-1 football coaches should get five-year contracts. They can't leave before five seasons; nor can they be fired."

I'd be a lot more happy with CFB if it adopted this.
 
10-16-2014 07:36 AM
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Ring of Black Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 06:32 AM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  I'm not gonna pat Daugherty on the back too much. This is a logical approach to the whole situation by anyone who doesn't run around with their hair on fire or doesn't have their own agenda and an axe to grind.

Why buck the narrative, Jackie? 03-lmfao
 
10-16-2014 07:37 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
I'm not calling for Tubberville's head, but consistently using the excuse that you need to get your players in just doesn't fly. The only way that would work as an excuse is if your predecessor didn't recruit at all or you were radically changing the teams style of play and thus needed players with different body styles and skill sets. Neither happened.
 
10-16-2014 07:44 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 07:31 AM)wanes Wrote:  
(10-16-2014 05:00 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  P-Doc states calls for Tuberville's head are premature.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../17318581/

Can you paste the story?

Article is now pasted.
 
10-16-2014 07:51 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 07:44 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  I'm not calling for Tubberville's head, but consistently using the excuse that you need to get your players in just doesn't fly. The only way that would work as an excuse is if your predecessor didn't recruit at all or you were radically changing the teams style of play and thus needed players with different body styles and skill sets. Neither happened.

I have gone over this before but the recruiting was not as great as people think. In addition the players here do not fit the style of play this staff wants.

Butch recruited very well at certain positions (especially WR) but his highest ranked recruits at RB, offensive line and defense did not pan out one reason or another. Our running back stable should be loaded with Jamel Poteat, Akise Teague, Tion Green and Deonte Buckley right now. Buckley may have been a casualty of the coaching change and Tion Green has been injured (frankly he hasn't lived up to his potential if I am being honest), but Poteat and Teague washed out. The backs we have had to rely on most part this year are guys Tubs brought in (Hosey Williams, Rod Moore and now Mike Boone) Caleb Stacey was a four star Jones recruit who switched to UC from Michigan. Shortly after getting here he quit the team (last I heard he as at Mount St. Joe's). On defense I can give you a list of about 10-12 guys who were highly ranked/expected to be contributors here who are no longer here. We are relying on JUCO's Tuberville brought in (Hartsfield, Jordan, Howard Wilder), walk-ons (Clemente Cassius*, Grant Coleman), transfers (Luc, Eric Wilson) and guys that are either young or haven't played a lot in the past (Edwards, Tyson, Andre Jones, Carter Jacobs, Kevin Brown, Cortez Broughton, Chris Burton). Only Nick Temple and Silverberry Mouhon fit in the category of experienced guys who were highly ranked.
 
10-16-2014 08:08 AM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
Eh, OK... So UC fans have to basically shelve their passion and tolerate whatever for the next one-to-three years.

And if, at the end of five years (to use P-Doc's standard) we are at sub .500 levels, where do we honestly think the football fan support will be?
 
10-16-2014 08:21 AM
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marcuscan Offline
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 08:08 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(10-16-2014 07:44 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  I'm not calling for Tubberville's head, but consistently using the excuse that you need to get your players in just doesn't fly. The only way that would work as an excuse is if your predecessor didn't recruit at all or you were radically changing the teams style of play and thus needed players with different body styles and skill sets. Neither happened.

I have gone over this before but the recruiting was not as great as people think. In addition the players here do not fit the style of play this staff wants.

Butch recruited very well at certain positions (especially WR) but his highest ranked recruits at RB, offensive line and defense did not pan out one reason or another. Our running back stable should be loaded with Jamel Poteat, Akise Teague, Tion Green and Deonte Buckley right now. Buckley may have been a casualty of the coaching change and Tion Green has been injured (frankly he hasn't lived up to his potential if I am being honest), but Poteat and Teague washed out. The backs we have had to rely on most part this year are guys Tubs brought in (Hosey Williams, Rod Moore and now Mike Boone) Caleb Stacey was a four star Jones recruit who switched to UC from Michigan. Shortly after getting here he quit the team (last I heard he as at Mount St. Joe's). On defense I can give you a list of about 10-12 guys who were highly ranked/expected to be contributors here who are no longer here. We are relying on JUCO's Tuberville brought in (Hartsfield, Jordan, Howard Wilder), walk-ons (Clemente Cassius*, Grant Coleman), transfers (Luc, Eric Wilson) and guys that are either young or haven't played a lot in the past (Edwards, Tyson, Andre Jones, Carter Jacobs, Kevin Brown, Cortez Broughton, Chris Burton). Only Nick Temple and Silverberry Mouhon fit in the category of experienced guys who were highly ranked.

THIS!

The Butch Jones master recruiter fallacy. Of the 3 coaches we've had who've brought us from irrelevancy to relevancy (MD, BK, CBJ) his kids have BY FAR been the least productive. Will a single CBJ kid make the NFL draft? Not quite sure why folks are still holding on to the idea that he was a plus recruiter for us.....other than the fact that the classes were highly rated....which is a very questionable indicator.




mc
 
10-16-2014 08:36 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
I'm still in the camp that believes Tuberville will turn this around. I also believe that Jones' recruiting failures represent a substantial part of this season's problems.

With that said, I don't see much passion in the defensive starters. Flying around the field and "high fiving" one another after a big play or 3rd down stop seems to energize the crowd; the "D" gets off the field and the offense feeds off that energy. Against, Memphis, I didn't like the body language of the players in pre-game warmups and it certainly carried over into the game.
 
10-16-2014 08:52 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 08:36 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  The Butch Jones master recruiter fallacy. Of the 3 coaches we've had who've brought us from irrelevancy to relevancy (MD, BK, CBJ) his kids have BY FAR been the least productive. Will a single CBJ kid make the NFL draft? Not quite sure why folks are still holding on to the idea that he was a plus recruiter for us.....other than the fact that the classes were highly rated....which is a very questionable indicator.

mc

Fair enough. I certainly don't follow recruiting as much as others on here. And I understand the rankings are quite subjective. Its just hard to ignore the fact that Dantonio's recruiting classes were miserably ranked between 84 and 104 and yet BK was able to turn those classes into incredible teams. So even if BJ's recruiting classes took some losses from transfers and flame outs, its hard to see on paper how those classes would be any worse than Dantonio's.
 
10-16-2014 08:53 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 08:36 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  
(10-16-2014 08:08 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(10-16-2014 07:44 AM)nachoman91 Wrote:  I'm not calling for Tubberville's head, but consistently using the excuse that you need to get your players in just doesn't fly. The only way that would work as an excuse is if your predecessor didn't recruit at all or you were radically changing the teams style of play and thus needed players with different body styles and skill sets. Neither happened.

I have gone over this before but the recruiting was not as great as people think. In addition the players here do not fit the style of play this staff wants.

Butch recruited very well at certain positions (especially WR) but his highest ranked recruits at RB, offensive line and defense did not pan out one reason or another. Our running back stable should be loaded with Jamel Poteat, Akise Teague, Tion Green and Deonte Buckley right now. Buckley may have been a casualty of the coaching change and Tion Green has been injured (frankly he hasn't lived up to his potential if I am being honest), but Poteat and Teague washed out. The backs we have had to rely on most part this year are guys Tubs brought in (Hosey Williams, Rod Moore and now Mike Boone) Caleb Stacey was a four star Jones recruit who switched to UC from Michigan. Shortly after getting here he quit the team (last I heard he as at Mount St. Joe's). On defense I can give you a list of about 10-12 guys who were highly ranked/expected to be contributors here who are no longer here. We are relying on JUCO's Tuberville brought in (Hartsfield, Jordan, Howard Wilder), walk-ons (Clemente Cassius*, Grant Coleman), transfers (Luc, Eric Wilson) and guys that are either young or haven't played a lot in the past (Edwards, Tyson, Andre Jones, Carter Jacobs, Kevin Brown, Cortez Broughton, Chris Burton). Only Nick Temple and Silverberry Mouhon fit in the category of experienced guys who were highly ranked.

THIS!

The Butch Jones master recruiter fallacy. Of the 3 coaches we've had who've brought us from irrelevancy to relevancy (MD, BK, CBJ) his kids have BY FAR been the least productive. Will a single CBJ kid make the NFL draft? Not quite sure why folks are still holding on to the idea that he was a plus recruiter for us.....other than the fact that the classes were highly rated....which is a very questionable indicator.




mc

I know I'm guilty of judging recruiting by the number of stars a player has coming out of HS. The bottom line is that these rankings can be a guide to the quality of a player's potential, but it seems to pretty much turn into a crap shoot after getting past some of the high to mid range 4 star guys. After that it's up to the coaches who see and talk to these guys to pick out diamonds in the rough and evaluate how they fit a particular system and if a position switch is in order. On paper Dantonio's recruiting sucked, but those 2 star guys formed the backbone of some of our greatest teams. On paper some of Butch's signees looked great, but this isn't stratomatic football. Personality issues, injuries, academic issues, missing home and family, adjusting to college life, etc... can conspire to keep highly rated recruits from succeeding.
 
10-16-2014 08:55 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 07:36 AM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  Liked the article, but especially loved this sentence: "Ideally, all D-1 football coaches should get five-year contracts. They can't leave before five seasons; nor can they be fired."

I'd be a lot more happy with CFB if it adopted this.

Would you be happy if after 2-3 years it was obvious the coach in question was in over his head and the program was going south quickly? Fortunately, that sort of restriction would never occur in college football.

The level of patience should depend entirely on the status of the football program when they first arrived.
 
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
Before I go patting that hack on the back. Here were his comments from 10/13/14 ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gunner Kiel: Terrific.

The end.

Bad defense, bad league, bad home schedule, Kelly-Jones glory days taking a beating. Momentum from same, slipping away. Something needs to be done.

If you're a fan, are you OK with Tuberville? Very pleasant guy to deal with. But maintaining a high-level D-1 program requires an immense amount of energy and/or very good assistants. Are you among those who feel that one or both is lacking?

How could any staff allow a defense to decline the way this one has? The Dantonio teams were generally solid defensively; BK's D was just good enough. Jones re-emphasized it.

Now?

UC was making its mark as a place where young, enthusiastic and talented up-and-comers could thicken their resumes before heading to the top. Now?

They have seven games left. Even if the Bearcats win four, making them 6-6 and bowl eligible, how much might that appeal to you?

The home schedule is South Florida, East Carolina and Houston. ECU is good, but who cares around here?

I enjoy UC football. When BK was here, it was a priority for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The media did not cover UC when Dantonio was here. BK called them out and they never forgave him for that. The coverage became marginally better. However, what sticks out in my mind is not the media or PD thought "UC football ... was a priority." They complained about the BE then and talked about how it was not BCS worthy. The compliments, if there were any, were followed by a backhanded statement. One constant has been the attendance and their complaints on the conference. When the media felt there were not the requisite amount of butts in the seats they whined. Now UC fans show some passion and we are the problem.

Among us hardcore fans/alums I see a lot of frustration, caring and passion for the program.
 
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 11:16 AM by bearcatmill.)
10-16-2014 11:16 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
As I've said before, you need 3-5 years before a head coach has his players in his system. The transition hurts, but it can/will be worth it.

We also need a head coach that stays more than 3 years and we have that in Tubbs. I think he'll stay as long as he can - probably until retirement. He's proven he can win and he will win here.
 
10-16-2014 11:30 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
I've been confused by the constant calls for firing a head coach a handful of games into his 2nd season. I've called for coaches to be fired and ran websites stating that, but that was after 10 years and 55 coaches later. Tuberville knows talent, and will find it. You have to give him time.

Oh, and his defensive coordinator has got to go. The fact that nobody on defense understands their schemes is a major problem. My biggest concern with doing that is that it will be the 3rd DC in 3 years, and I don't know they have the budget to actually upgrade at that coaching position.
 
10-16-2014 11:36 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 11:36 AM)mlb Wrote:  I've been confused by the constant calls for firing a head coach a handful of games into his 2nd season. I've called for coaches to be fired and ran websites stating that, but that was after 10 years and 55 coaches later. Tuberville knows talent, and will find it. You have to give him time.

Oh, and his defensive coordinator has got to go. The fact that nobody on defense understands their schemes is a major problem. My biggest concern with doing that is that it will be the 3rd DC in 3 years, and I don't know they have the budget to actually upgrade at that coaching position.

Hell, he's the 6th DC in the last seven seasons here. It's like a revolving door.
(Tresey, Diaco, Banks, Jahncek, Kaufman, Hughes)
 
10-16-2014 11:50 AM
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RE: Doc: Tommy Tuberville Deserves Time
(10-16-2014 08:52 AM)indycat Wrote:  With that said, I don't see much passion in the defensive starters. Flying around the field and "high fiving" one another after a big play or 3rd down stop seems to energize the crowd; the "D" gets off the field and the offense feeds off that energy. Against, Memphis, I didn't like the body language of the players in pre-game warmups and it certainly carried over into the game.

Your observation is accurate. Seems like this Hughes defense is a poor attempt to "read and react". There is certainly no "flying around"; it looks more like flailing around.

But I will give the entire team a bit of a pass in the Memphis game - and maybe even longer. First, the lost life of another teammate had to be depressing to all, and devastating to a few. Then, the man that is put up front as their spiritual/character leader gets fired for the Kroger incident. And I also think there is one other issue bothering the chemistry on this team that has yet to be discussed.

RDAIV was also put up on a pedestal as a leader of the team. Though not gifted with SEC speed, UC was able to benefit from his playmaking ability under CBJ. But CTT and staff have not viewed him the same way. Even healthy, his role has been diminished. And now there may or may not be an injury that will lead to a redshirt, and a possible transfer to Tennessee. A deal his father is brokering to get his younger brother in Knoxville.

But during his first two years, his birthright made him the face of the team, especially to the African American players. Those players have now seen him not necessarily kicked to the curb, but moved off to the side. It's tough on morale when another leader is not involved in the battle anymore.
 
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