(10-15-2014 07:13 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 06:12 PM)DrBox Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 05:11 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Any time I hear "the crime of ruining CFB" all it translates to is "my school/conference didn't come out of realignment a winner and so now I want to burn the whole CFB structure down in the vain hopes that it will improve my school's lot by doing so".

And considering that 75% of the members of the cartel are there because of association, not merit, it's a legitimate position to take.

Tulane was every bit a part of the club till it's dumb decision to walk out on it.

But that's the G5s problem. They don't get that association is exactly what a conference is: a private club of members who WANT to be together for many reasons beyond just sports.

I get that it kills a school like say Cincy that they can't just "earn" a spot in the Big 10 because the Big 10 schools would rather associate with other schools than them. That would be the much quicker and easier path than building the American into a conference that TV wants to pay which is a MUCH more difficult task.

But as much as you complain about it because it keeps you out of the P5 you are thankful for it because it means schools like Idaho, ULM and New Mexico State can't force themselves into YOUR conference

While I get your rationale, the power and control never changes, nor does the perception. If American teams start getting too good, either they'll start getting called up like the MWC a few years ago (TCU, Utah) or they'll be discounted and belittled. Big conference fans will say they beat good teams on their off days or they didn't beta the best of the major conferences. Or they'll just stop scheduling altogether and maintain their status quo.

Whatever the case may be, there's no way to "join" the club other than a call up. This is the reason the old WAC-16 didn't get a look for the BCS when it had numerous good and well known teams (BYU was 13-1 in 1996 with quality wins yet shut out of the nearby Fiesta Bowl).

For better or worse, it's a country club mentality and if you weren't in the club by 1940, chances are you weren't getting in and if so, it was by extreme luck or timing if not both. And in some cases, you can earn your way in and even prove you belong then get left behind due to politics (ahem).

(10-17-2014 01:13 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 07:13 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 06:12 PM)DrBox Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 05:11 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Any time I hear "the crime of ruining CFB" all it translates to is "my school/conference didn't come out of realignment a winner and so now I want to burn the whole CFB structure down in the vain hopes that it will improve my school's lot by doing so".

And considering that 75% of the members of the cartel are there because of association, not merit, it's a legitimate position to take.

Tulane was every bit a part of the club till it's dumb decision to walk out on it.

But that's the G5s problem. They don't get that association is exactly what a conference is: a private club of members who WANT to be together for many reasons beyond just sports.

I get that it kills a school like say Cincy that they can't just "earn" a spot in the Big 10 because the Big 10 schools would rather associate with other schools than them. That would be the much quicker and easier path than building the American into a conference that TV wants to pay which is a MUCH more difficult task.

But as much as you complain about it because it keeps you out of the P5 you are thankful for it because it means schools like Idaho, ULM and New Mexico State can't force themselves into YOUR conference

While I get your rationale, the power and control never changes, nor does the perception. If American teams start getting too good, either they'll start getting called up like the MWC a few years ago (TCU, Utah) or they'll be discounted and belittled. Big conference fans will say they beat good teams on their off days or they didn't beta the best of the major conferences. Or they'll just stop scheduling altogether and maintain their status quo.

Whatever the case may be, there's no way to "join" the club other than a call up.

IMO, that's the fundamental fact that all G5 schools need to face. Failure to face it is why I got into so many tangles on the AAC board: There is this belief out there that conferences like the AAC and MWC can be "built up" such that the P5 and TV networks would be forced to take notice and allow them into the Power club. That's the basis of Aresco's advertisements calling the AAC a "power" conference.

But history shows that conferences do not get promoted to Power level, only individual schools do. So a school has to do everything it can to build its brand.

What the AAC & MWC need to do is not worry about the P5 and just improve their overall product across the board and separate themselves from the rest of the G5.

That is possible especially with the AAC...it is still being pushed as a Power League in Men's Basketball...if they can win the majority of the Access Slot it will help their cause and maybe they will get a better TV Deal in the future...not P5 $$$ but enough to show a good gap between everyone else...

(10-17-2014 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  IMO, that's the fundamental fact that all G5 schools need to face. Failure to face it is why I got into so many tangles on the AAC board: There is this belief out there that conferences like the AAC and MWC can be "built up" such that the P5 and TV networks would be forced to take notice and allow them into the Power club. That's the basis of Aresco's advertisements calling the AAC a "power" conference.

But history shows that conferences do not get promoted to Power level, only individual schools do. So a school has to do everything it can to build its brand.

Nothing short of literally winning every non-conference and bowl game and having 2-3 programs dominate the league for a decade will ever change the status quo. The only other way I see things changing is if the Big 12 implodes and Texas wants a more regional league. Let's say in this scenario that 5 of the Texhoma 6 (minus Baylor or TCU) form a new league and add dominant Houston (I'm biased, work with me here), Memphis, the Florida directionals and ECU. That would be a new league that would get upgraded, as would possibly the other AAC and B12 remnants and even then that would just be two versions of the Big 12.

(10-17-2014 07:54 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  IMO, that's the fundamental fact that all G5 schools need to face. Failure to face it is why I got into so many tangles on the AAC board: There is this belief out there that conferences like the AAC and MWC can be "built up" such that the P5 and TV networks would be forced to take notice and allow them into the Power club. That's the basis of Aresco's advertisements calling the AAC a "power" conference.

But history shows that conferences do not get promoted to Power level, only individual schools do. So a school has to do everything it can to build its brand.

Nothing short of literally winning every non-conference and bowl game and having 2-3 programs dominate the league for a decade will ever change the status quo. The only other way I see things changing is if the Big 12 implodes and Texas wants a more regional league. Let's say in this scenario that 5 of the Texhoma 6 (minus Baylor or TCU) form a new league and add dominant Houston (I'm biased, work with me here), Memphis, the Florida directionals and ECU. That would be a new league that would get upgraded, as would possibly the other AAC and B12 remnants and even then that would just be two versions of the Big 12.

I worked with you on Houston, but I still don't see that happening. IMO, the current Big 12 has Power status strictly because of Texas and Oklahoma. It's the blue-chip brands that make a conference "Power", not middling brands. A collection of USFs, UCFs, Houstons, ECUs, Texas Techs, and Oklahoma States would lack the "star power" demanded by TV.

I just can't imagine schools like Alabama, LSU, USC, Ohio State, and Texas agreeing to share TV and CFP revenue with that hypothetical conference on anything like an equal basis.

All the dreams of an emergent G5 becoming a financial peer of the P5 are just that, dreams, unless the G5 or some significantly large subset of the G5 change their methods.

First they would have to scrap the traditional conference model and have some sort of organization that handles media rights on their behalf negotiating a unified deal.

Second they would have to assess whether they want to play under a single conference brand with large divisions or for very logical reasons imposed by the NCAA structure opt to be independent conferences that are federated. At the minimum that would mean a single body handling TV at it's most effective it would be four 12 team conferences with each of the four hiring the same administrative group to manage the conference responsibilities, essentially one commissioner for all four conferences. Then coordinate all the bowls and TV.

That's no guarantee but no single conference is likely to rise alone

(10-17-2014 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 01:13 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 07:13 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 06:12 PM)DrBox Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 05:11 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Any time I hear "the crime of ruining CFB" all it translates to is "my school/conference didn't come out of realignment a winner and so now I want to burn the whole CFB structure down in the vain hopes that it will improve my school's lot by doing so".

And considering that 75% of the members of the cartel are there because of association, not merit, it's a legitimate position to take.

Tulane was every bit a part of the club till it's dumb decision to walk out on it.

But that's the G5s problem. They don't get that association is exactly what a conference is: a private club of members who WANT to be together for many reasons beyond just sports.

I get that it kills a school like say Cincy that they can't just "earn" a spot in the Big 10 because the Big 10 schools would rather associate with other schools than them. That would be the much quicker and easier path than building the American into a conference that TV wants to pay which is a MUCH more difficult task.

But as much as you complain about it because it keeps you out of the P5 you are thankful for it because it means schools like Idaho, ULM and New Mexico State can't force themselves into YOUR conference

While I get your rationale, the power and control never changes, nor does the perception. If American teams start getting too good, either they'll start getting called up like the MWC a few years ago (TCU, Utah) or they'll be discounted and belittled. Big conference fans will say they beat good teams on their off days or they didn't beta the best of the major conferences. Or they'll just stop scheduling altogether and maintain their status quo.

Whatever the case may be, there's no way to "join" the club other than a call up.

IMO, that's the fundamental fact that all G5 schools need to face. Failure to face it is why I got into so many tangles on the AAC board: There is this belief out there that conferences like the AAC and MWC can be "built up" such that the P5 and TV networks would be forced to take notice and allow them into the Power club. That's the basis of Aresco's advertisements calling the AAC a "power" conference.

But history shows that conferences do not get promoted to Power level, only individual schools do. So a school has to do everything it can to build its brand.

Yup. Hair Thompson had a grand plan to build the MWC into "the seventh BCS league". Ask CSU, Wyoming, and UNM how well that worked.

(10-17-2014 01:32 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 05:58 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-17-2014 01:13 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 07:13 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 06:12 PM)DrBox Wrote:  And considering that 75% of the members of the cartel are there because of association, not merit, it's a legitimate position to take.

Tulane was every bit a part of the club till it's dumb decision to walk out on it.

But that's the G5s problem. They don't get that association is exactly what a conference is: a private club of members who WANT to be together for many reasons beyond just sports.

I get that it kills a school like say Cincy that they can't just "earn" a spot in the Big 10 because the Big 10 schools would rather associate with other schools than them. That would be the much quicker and easier path than building the American into a conference that TV wants to pay which is a MUCH more difficult task.

But as much as you complain about it because it keeps you out of the P5 you are thankful for it because it means schools like Idaho, ULM and New Mexico State can't force themselves into YOUR conference

While I get your rationale, the power and control never changes, nor does the perception. If American teams start getting too good, either they'll start getting called up like the MWC a few years ago (TCU, Utah) or they'll be discounted and belittled. Big conference fans will say they beat good teams on their off days or they didn't beta the best of the major conferences. Or they'll just stop scheduling altogether and maintain their status quo.

Whatever the case may be, there's no way to "join" the club other than a call up.

IMO, that's the fundamental fact that all G5 schools need to face. Failure to face it is why I got into so many tangles on the AAC board: There is this belief out there that conferences like the AAC and MWC can be "built up" such that the P5 and TV networks would be forced to take notice and allow them into the Power club. That's the basis of Aresco's advertisements calling the AAC a "power" conference.

But history shows that conferences do not get promoted to Power level, only individual schools do. So a school has to do everything it can to build its brand.

Yup. Hair Thompson had a grand plan to build the MWC into "the seventh BCS league". Ask CSU, Wyoming, and UNM how well that worked.

He might have succeeded if those 3 along with UNLV hadn't been so incredibly bad during that time. The top half was stronger than the Big 10 and Big East. But the bottom half would have had trouble staying out of last place in the MAC.

(10-17-2014 08:51 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  All the dreams of an emergent G5 becoming a financial peer of the P5 are just that, dreams, unless the G5 or some significantly large subset of the G5 change their methods.

First they would have to scrap the traditional conference model and have some sort of organization that handles media rights on their behalf negotiating a unified deal.

Second they would have to assess whether they want to play under a single conference brand with large divisions or for very logical reasons imposed by the NCAA structure opt to be independent conferences that are federated. At the minimum that would mean a single body handling TV at it's most effective it would be four 12 team conferences with each of the four hiring the same administrative group to manage the conference responsibilities, essentially one commissioner for all four conferences. Then coordinate all the bowls and TV.

That's no guarantee but no single conference is likely to rise alone

Third, somebody would have to agree to pay them as such. Considering 90% of the G5 can't draw 30K fans to their games consistently I have a really tough time believing there would ever be a market to do so.

I disagree with the "there is no other way than a call up"

Power means money.

Money is earned by bringing TV the games that a have a ton of butts in the seats and watching on air. If the AAC was averaging 50K attendance for FB and 10K for MBB (already damn close as it is) and getting decent ratings on TV then content starved TV would be offering a contract at least as good as the ACC's and the Bowls would be offering a tie in to the winner.

They don't care about the P5's country club, they care about making money and if you prove to them you can make them money, they will offer it to you.

So that's the choice: cry about how unfair it is to have to fill up your stadium without regular visits from the local P5 powers OR get your fans to show up anyway because it will lead to better things for your school.

"Shut Up and Show Up" should be every G5 team's campaign.

(10-17-2014 02:23 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  I disagree with the "there is no other way than a call up"

Power means money.

Money is earned by bringing TV the games that a have a ton of butts in the seats and watching on air. If the AAC was averaging 50K attendance for FB and 10K for MBB (already damn close as it is) and getting decent ratings on TV then content starved TV would be offering a contract at least as good as the ACC's and the Bowls would be offering a tie in to the winner.

They don't care about the P5's country club, they care about making money and if you prove to them you can make them money, they will offer it to you.

So that's the choice: cry about how unfair it is to have to fill up your stadium without regular visits from the local P5 powers OR get your fans to show up anyway because it will lead to better things for your school.

"Shut Up and Show Up" should be every G5 team's campaign.

The problem for G5 is it will be extremely hard for any one conference to hit those targets.

BYU has done it for years but can't get in P5 for other reasons, ECU is getting there in football.

But half of all games have a loser and it isn't likely that any can have the success that hits that target across the board.

Part of the problem is perception. People don't know any better and just go by who the media tells them to (that one team being in such and such conference should be treated better than a team from another such conference). The WAC-16 had everything: state flagships, ranked teams large markets, great basketball with Final Four caliber teams. Yet it was left behind in the original BCS deal (to be fair, there was plenty of deadweight as well).

The perception never changes and it gets caught in the Catch 22: conferences aren't good enough because they don't meet a set criteria of perception yet they can't be seen as good enough because the perception never changes. Like I said, it would take every team in a conference winning every OOC game every year for a decade and having 2-3 teams dominate the conference yearly, giving the perception of powerhouses. The only problem is those handful of teams would be scooped up by a P5 and the said league is back to square one.

The Big East wedged it's way into major status both based on large eastern media markets and chiefly on the backs of Syracuse and especially Miami (Va. Tech was emerging as the conference formed). The ACC also had the benefit of having a historically great basketball league and cemented its status as a major on the back of Florida State in the decade of the 90s. Otherwise, the majors have remained virtually unchanged since the early part of the 20th century, with a few making cameos (Houston, Idaho, Montana) and a few dropping themselves or getting dropped out (Tulane, Chicago, Sewanee, Rice, SMU, Temple) while a few snuck in due to good timing, luck and/or resurrecting themselves (TCU, Utah, Louisville). And one is just screwed because no one wants to deal with all the strings that come attached with them (BYU). Again, the lineup has remained virtually the same for 100 or so years.

(10-17-2014 03:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Part of the problem is perception. People don't know any better and just go by who the media tells them to (that one team being in such and such conference should be treated better than a team from another such conference). The WAC-16 had everything: state flagships, ranked teams large markets, great basketball with Final Four caliber teams. Yet it was left behind in the original BCS deal (to be fair, there was plenty of deadweight as well).

The perception never changes and it gets caught in the Catch 22: conferences aren't good enough because they don't meet a set criteria of perception yet they can't be seen as good enough because the perception never changes. Like I said, it would take every team in a conference winning every OOC game every year for a decade and having 2-3 teams dominate the conference yearly, giving the perception of powerhouses. The only problem is those handful of teams would be scooped up by a P5 and the said league is back to square one.

The Big East wedged it's way into major status both based on large eastern media markets and chiefly on the backs of Syracuse and especially Miami (Va. Tech was emerging as the conference formed). The ACC also had the benefit of having a historically great basketball league and cemented its status as a major on the back of Florida State in the decade of the 90s. Otherwise, the majors have remained virtually unchanged since the early part of the 20th century, with a few making cameos (Houston, Idaho, Montana) and a few dropping themselves or getting dropped out (Tulane, Chicago, Sewanee, Rice, SMU, Temple) while a few snuck in due to good timing, luck and/or resurrecting themselves (TCU, Utah, Louisville). And one is just screwed because no one wants to deal with all the strings that come attached with them (BYU). Again, the lineup has remained virtually the same for 100 or so years.

As was said in one of the articles on this matter "You need one network to love you."