What's impossible to answer is how would Kiel perform in a good offense and defense like Carden has at ECU. Carden doesn't have they pressure of needing to abandoning the run early and having the defense linemen tee off on him to get to the QB nearly every play.
Reversing the role, how would Carden perform in Gunner's situation? Probably wouldn't fair any better. Having Hardy gives Carden arguably the best weapon in the league at WR. Wouldn't Kiel enjoy better results having that luxury?
(10-15-2014 06:55 PM)PirateMarv Wrote: John O'Korn.
while you are joking and trying to take a jab..
if the ward experiment doesnt work and john can get a decent qb coach and a different OC for next year okorn can easily revive himself to being top 3 in the league
john has a rocket arm and can throw 80 yard bombs with ease, 6'4, amazing throwing motion, quick release, rather buff and very mobile for his size...and given time in the pocket can be very accurate
most of his issues are mental, he doesnt handle pressure well (and its become obvious to our oppenents and now everyone started bring guys every play), he tends to lock on to certain WR ad stare them down , and despite having a rocket arm we never throw the ball deep and just throw non-stop slants and WR screens (between him and the OC its becomes obvious where the ball is going)...
i havent lost faith in john, i just have more faith in greg, who has ran a spread offense his whole life, a mulltiyear starter in addidtion to multiyears of 7 on 7 football. ward has escapability and experience...people forget okorn only played 1 year of highschool on a run first team..okorn was dominant for that 1 year (won florida's offensive player of the year) but most people dont realize most of that was done with his feet and with the occasional deep ball. he was doing 18-20 passes a game (think miss state/florida type football), so this whole air raid experience is new to him
kevin kolb went through a similar proccess, dominant freshmen year, horrible sophmore year, dominant junior, borderline elite senior ..and went on to have a decent nfl career which woould have bben great if he didnt keep losing jobs becuase of concusions (happned 3 times)
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2014 09:26 PM by pesik.)
(10-15-2014 09:22 PM)CougarRed Wrote: Since Greg Ward came into the game against UCF with very little practice time at QB in the Spring or Fall, Houston has outscored:
UCF 6-0 and inches away from 13-0
Memphis 28-24 at Memphis
Since UCF and Memphis appear to be two of the best 3 teams in the league, I'd say Ward is as good as anybody not named Carden.
Like I said, not passing judgement on him yet, need to see more. We had a one hit wonder a few years ago, one good game and poof, Carden replaced him.
Look at how he chops his feet and stands tall in the pocket. He was so good last year. This year, he was constantly on the run. I think the OL has just as much to do with it as coaching. Then add to the fact that he gained 20 lbs (I'm sure when he did that, he assumed his OL was going to be decent), and that probably took away from his mobility, at least a little bit. Throw in LeBoosh, and there you have it.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2014 11:02 PM by Kronke.)
(10-15-2014 09:22 PM)CougarRed Wrote: Since Greg Ward came into the game against UCF with very little practice time at QB in the Spring or Fall, Houston has outscored:
UCF 6-0 and inches away from 13-0
Memphis 28-24 at Memphis
Since UCF and Memphis appear to be two of the best 3 teams in the league, I'd say Ward is as good as anybody not named Carden.
CougerRed, I don't want to get into an argument since I agree that Ward has a lot of potential but your stat is misleading.
Yes. Since Ward came in, Houston outscored UCF 6-0 but that was two field goals. While O'Korn was in, Houston also scored two field goals. That's not particularly differentiating.
The 6-0 since Ward came in is more of a testament to your defense stepping it up and holding off UCFs offense.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 09:59 AM by Insane_Baboon.)
(10-15-2014 09:45 AM)mlb Wrote: Well, based on the NFL scouts, it would be
1. Gunner Kiel
2. everybody else
Great, but that's certainly not based upon wins and losses. UC has been a huge disappointment this year, and Gunner is supposed to be the leader of that disappointing team.
Unless Kiel can play defense then I don't think he could do much about their record.
(10-15-2014 12:18 PM)CyberBull Wrote: Where did he say that White is better than Carden?
He certainly was trying to pump up the 106th rated QB in college football. That is a joke.
So in other words, he never said that White is better than Carden....
Thanks for playing.
They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath. He did that. Thanks for playing.
Again, I am not sure why you can’t get the simple mechanics of this thread, but the only comparison made was for that specific game. The only person who has made that comparison is you. If you look at their statistics they are very similar:
Completions/Attempts
White 21/41
Carden 24/33
Yards
White 257
Carden 250
TD/INT
White 1/1
Carden 12/1
Result
White – Loss
Carden – Win
The jury is still out on White and we’ll know by the end of the year where he stands. Statistically he is the worst QB in the conference but his talent level is much better than that and he is very inexperienced. He has been much better the last two games and it’s not a coincidence that the OL has played much better. What has killed him are the dropped passes, where officially Bulls receivers muffed 8 passes last week. If he just gets 4 of those catches back…his completion percentage is in the ~60% and perhaps the game ends differently. Especially with two drops in the end zone and one at the 8 yard line.
Thanks, people just do not realize how many dropped passes the Bulls have had. It's been an epidemic. I really believe there have been upwards of 30 drops by receivers in the 6 games...4-5 a game minimum. Many of which would have went for big yardage. People just look at White's completion percentage of 44% and just naturally assume he's been bad. He's actually been good the last 3 weeks and would have been very good if not for drops. If even 15 of those passes had been caught, White would have completed 68 of 121 for a 57% completion rate. People just don't understand just how many wide open passes have been flat dropped by USF receivers. They have been beyond horrific, other than Andre Davis, who has played in less than 2 games. We are not lying to you.
Bulls QB White still young, but gaining experience
TAMPA – When University of South Florida sophomore quarterback Mike White is on, he’s often spectacular. In six games, White has delivered 13 passing plays of 20-plus yards, including touchdowns of 75 and 51 yards. In such moments, it’s easy to get excited about his potential.
But overall, he has completed just 43.8 percent of his throws. Early on, he didn’t have enough time in the pocket. Lately, he has been haunted by dropped passes. Sometimes, he admits, there are silly mistakes.
And he still first looks inward instead of blaming others, even though the dropped passes adversely affect his statistics. Last Saturday, White was just 5-for-17 in the fourth quarter against East Carolina, when USF’s 10-point halftime lead had slipped away and the Bulls sunk deeper into the abyss.
“It’s frustrating for the whole offense because we’re leaving plays out there,’’ White said. “They’re Division I receivers. If they couldn’t catch it, they wouldn’t be here. We want to make a play so badly. We want to score. We want to win. It’s good intentions. I promise you they’ll catch it (next time).’’
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 11:55 AM by BullsFanInTX.)
(10-15-2014 09:45 AM)mlb Wrote: Well, based on the NFL scouts, it would be
1. Gunner Kiel
2. everybody else
Great, but that's certainly not based upon wins and losses. UC has been a huge disappointment this year, and Gunner is supposed to be the leader of that disappointing team.
Unless Kiel can play defense then I don't think he could do much about their record.
I understand your point, but rightly or wrongly a QBs success is largely judged upon wins and losses. His skill set while admirable, is not enough to overcome the defensive deficiencies of his team.
(10-16-2014 12:45 PM)NestaKnight1 Wrote: I understand your point, but rightly or wrongly a QBs success is largely judged upon wins and losses. His skill set while admirable, is not enough to overcome the defensive deficiencies of his team.
That doesn't mean it is the right way to judge them.
That's kind of like ranking a starting pitcher in baseball on their W/L record instead of their ERA.
(10-16-2014 12:45 PM)NestaKnight1 Wrote: I understand your point, but rightly or wrongly a QBs success is largely judged upon wins and losses. His skill set while admirable, is not enough to overcome the defensive deficiencies of his team.
That doesn't mean it is the right way to judge them.
That's kind of like ranking a starting pitcher in baseball on their W/L record instead of their ERA.
I don't understand NestaKnight1's point at all. You judge a QBs performance based on the performance of that QB, not on how the rest of the team performs.
If Blake Bortles played on this year's UC team and they still lost games it wouldn't reflect poorly on Bortles.
Likewise its not Kiel's fault that the defense is atrocious. Wins and Losses are not appropriate ways to rate QBs.
(10-16-2014 12:45 PM)NestaKnight1 Wrote: I understand your point, but rightly or wrongly a QBs success is largely judged upon wins and losses. His skill set while admirable, is not enough to overcome the defensive deficiencies of his team.
That doesn't mean it is the right way to judge them.
That's kind of like ranking a starting pitcher in baseball on their W/L record instead of their ERA.
I don't understand NestaKnight1's point at all. You judge a QBs performance based on the performance of that QB, not on how the rest of the team performs.
If Blake Bortles played on this year's UC team and they still lost games it wouldn't reflect poorly on Bortles.
Likewise its not Kiel's fault that the defense is atrocious. Wins and Losses are not appropriate ways to rate QBs.
Let me explain it this way. Dan Marino IMHO is one of the top three QBs of all time, judging by his stats, however, because he has never won a Super Bowl largely due to average defense of his team he is not considered in the same light as QBs who have won superbowls even with less spectacular stats. The Heisman trophy is awarded to the best overall football player in college football, if gunner's stats are deserving of the award, however he is playing on a team with a losing record (because of poor defense) do you really think he has an ice cubes chance in Hades of winning the award?
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2014 01:44 PM by NestaKnight1.)
