(10-14-2014 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  1. Conservation
2. Alternatives
3. Maximizing domestic production.

We can get there from here, but not on the present path.

So true.

(10-14-2014 12:05 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Thanks for the read. I'm heading down to Peru in about a month. The Shining Path was terrible and remnants still remain in the jungle. However, its beat down is the one of the best things to happen in Peru in the last 30 years. Unfortunately, the Peruvian President that orchestrated all that got big headed and had to flee the country later. lol.

Better big headed than beheaded...

(10-14-2014 12:26 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  But can we outspend the Sheiks and Emir's in that region. I'm all for drilling and being 'energy independent ' ( imagine how close we'd be now had we started to drill ANWR 10 years + ago). But the rest of the World will still buy enough Petroleum from the region that they will still be filthy rich. I took a somewhat different tact to the Arab Spring in that these people unfiltered what Americans have and can do and wanted the same. But instead of fanning THOSE flames and providing help and support, we did nothing. People would be shocked if the knew how close Iran was to changing leadership because of the Green Revolution. A lot of great unsung people put a lot of effort into laying that groundwork, only to see it die of neglect. Now look where we are
The point being we were close and it will take years to get that close again. In the mean time people like a winner and ISIS is winning, not us.

That's why I think if we're going to really go after ISIS, it needs to start by capturing the Emir of Qatar and essentially putting an end to the existence of Qatar. Then, we don't have to worry about outspending him.

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Remind me again, why do we have to do anything over there?

Economically:

The US doesn't need Mideast oil; Europe, Japan, and China do. We get the vast majority of our oil from the western hemisphere.

But.........

If Europe, Japan and China have their oil cut off we have to go turn the tap back on.

Why........?

Because all the crap we buy for cheap comes from China; and Europe/Japan tanking would kill the world economy too and our economy with it (yes, the current economy CAN get worse).

OPEC controls the price of oil, and a good portion of our oil comes from an OPEC country (Venezuela) who also has a semi-hostile government. So even though we have our own oil, its price will always be tied to the OPEC price of oil and so will the price of all our imported consumer goods.

So bottom line economically: We are over there to make sure we aren't paying $20 gal at the pump and all our Walmart T-shirts aren't $60.

Yep, I have no idea why anyone thinks we can have a totally isolationist foreign policy. That has never worked.

Your ignorant straw man argument aside, 49erfootball provided no good reasons to be over there.

(10-14-2014 12:40 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Draw a red line in the sand (and mean it)

we will carpet bomb the **** out of them (and mean it).

No-one will believe any more red line BS out of the US.

Better to be quiet about a red line until it's crossed and then tell them they crossed the undeclared red line, and if they cross the next one, the same thing will happen.

If (1) gassing Kurds (Iraq), (2) building nukes (Iran), (3) supporting ISIS (Qatar), (4) using chlorine gas on civilians after the Sarin red line was crossed and nothing was done, (5) using barrel bombs on civilian populations, yada yada are not red lines that the US will bomb the **** out of you for, what red line can you possibly propose that anyone will take seriously?

(10-14-2014 01:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:26 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  But can we outspend the Sheiks and Emir's in that region. I'm all for drilling and being 'energy independent ' ( imagine how close we'd be now had we started to drill ANWR 10 years + ago). But the rest of the World will still buy enough Petroleum from the region that they will still be filthy rich. I took a somewhat different tact to the Arab Spring in that these people unfiltered what Americans have and can do and wanted the same. But instead of fanning THOSE flames and providing help and support, we did nothing. People would be shocked if the knew how close Iran was to changing leadership because of the Green Revolution. A lot of great unsung people put a lot of effort into laying that groundwork, only to see it die of neglect. Now look where we are
The point being we were close and it will take years to get that close again. In the mean time people like a winner and ISIS is winning, not us.

That's why I think if we're going to really go after ISIS, it needs to start by capturing the Emir of Qatar and essentially putting an end to the existence of Qatar. Then, we don't have to worry about outspending him.

If we do this, do we get the 2022 World Cup? If so then I am in favor.

Go home and focus on America...

(10-14-2014 01:12 PM)PlainTiger Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 01:05 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:26 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  But can we outspend the Sheiks and Emir's in that region. I'm all for drilling and being 'energy independent ' ( imagine how close we'd be now had we started to drill ANWR 10 years + ago). But the rest of the World will still buy enough Petroleum from the region that they will still be filthy rich. I took a somewhat different tact to the Arab Spring in that these people unfiltered what Americans have and can do and wanted the same. But instead of fanning THOSE flames and providing help and support, we did nothing. People would be shocked if the knew how close Iran was to changing leadership because of the Green Revolution. A lot of great unsung people put a lot of effort into laying that groundwork, only to see it die of neglect. Now look where we are
The point being we were close and it will take years to get that close again. In the mean time people like a winner and ISIS is winning, not us.

That's why I think if we're going to really go after ISIS, it needs to start by capturing the Emir of Qatar and essentially putting an end to the existence of Qatar. Then, we don't have to worry about outspending him.

If we do this, do we get the 2022 World Cup? If so then I am in favor.

Well, I figured if you do it, do it big and raze the stadiums of death to the ground (I kind of wonder where the most deaths in soccer stadiums have come in - Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, or some African country)? However, my assumption is that we'd be blacklisted indefinitely by FIFA.

(10-14-2014 01:08 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Remind me again, why do we have to do anything over there?

Economically:

The US doesn't need Mideast oil; Europe, Japan, and China do. We get the vast majority of our oil from the western hemisphere.

But.........

If Europe, Japan and China have their oil cut off we have to go turn the tap back on.

Why........?

Because all the crap we buy for cheap comes from China; and Europe/Japan tanking would kill the world economy too and our economy with it (yes, the current economy CAN get worse).

OPEC controls the price of oil, and a good portion of our oil comes from an OPEC country (Venezuela) who also has a semi-hostile government. So even though we have our own oil, its price will always be tied to the OPEC price of oil and so will the price of all our imported consumer goods.

So bottom line economically: We are over there to make sure we aren't paying $20 gal at the pump and all our Walmart T-shirts aren't $60.

Yep, I have no idea why anyone thinks we can have a totally isolationist foreign policy. That has never worked.

Your ignorant straw man argument aside, 49erfootball provided no good reasons to be over there.

Yeah, everyone being unable to afford clothes, food and to drive to work isn't a good reason at all.

(10-14-2014 02:21 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 01:08 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Remind me again, why do we have to do anything over there?

Economically:

The US doesn't need Mideast oil; Europe, Japan, and China do. We get the vast majority of our oil from the western hemisphere.

But.........

If Europe, Japan and China have their oil cut off we have to go turn the tap back on.

Why........?

Because all the crap we buy for cheap comes from China; and Europe/Japan tanking would kill the world economy too and our economy with it (yes, the current economy CAN get worse).

OPEC controls the price of oil, and a good portion of our oil comes from an OPEC country (Venezuela) who also has a semi-hostile government. So even though we have our own oil, its price will always be tied to the OPEC price of oil and so will the price of all our imported consumer goods.

So bottom line economically: We are over there to make sure we aren't paying $20 gal at the pump and all our Walmart T-shirts aren't $60.

Yep, I have no idea why anyone thinks we can have a totally isolationist foreign policy. That has never worked.

Your ignorant straw man argument aside, 49erfootball provided no good reasons to be over there.

Yeah, everyone being unable to afford clothes, food and to drive to work isn't a good reason at all.

Sounds like the Palestinian territories.

(10-14-2014 02:21 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  Yeah, everyone being unable to afford clothes, food and to drive to work isn't a good reason at all.

See a man right in his own eyes? There's more hope for a fool than him.

Your previous post is absurd. Sorry that you actually believe it.

(10-14-2014 10:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 10:19 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We have two critical allies BOMBING EACH other? What a freaking MESSED up place. You can't go OWL's meanest SOB' in the valley routine. What a desperate screwed up place where dreams go to die. It's hopeless.

Actually you can go the meanest SOB in the valley route. And if we plan to do anything at all, we need to do nothing else or less.

That's been the problem, we've spent 12 years there without trying to be the meanest SOB in the valley, and that has failed.

We're not going to make them like us. We're not going to win their hearts and minds. We can make them think, oh sh*t, not the US again, we better behave. But we've got to be the US they don't want to see ONE TIME before we have any hope that they will be motivated by not wanting to see us AGAIN.

So we have two options, meanest SOB in the valley or hands off.

Quite frankly, at this point we've had so many instances where we've intervened and failed to be the meanest SOB in the valley, that I'm not sure doing it this one time would be enough to put the necessary fear into anyone's mind. That being the case, backing off and letting this play out is probably the right answer.

I can say unequivocally, without the remotest shadow of doubt, that sending out 1/10 the number of air strikes that we did in Kosovo is not the right answer.

What we really need to do is turn the Mideast into an area that is irrelevant to us economically as it was to Europe between the time that Vasco da Gama rounded the Cape of Good Hope and the time that oil was discovered underneath those sands. We do that by eliminating our dependence on oil from the region. That requires:
1. Conservation
2. Alternatives
3. Maximizing domestic production.

We can get there from here, but not on the present path.

^Yep, I agree with this.

(10-14-2014 01:08 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Remind me again, why do we have to do anything over there?

Economically:

The US doesn't need Mideast oil; Europe, Japan, and China do. We get the vast majority of our oil from the western hemisphere.

But.........

If Europe, Japan and China have their oil cut off we have to go turn the tap back on.

Why........?

Because all the crap we buy for cheap comes from China; and Europe/Japan tanking would kill the world economy too and our economy with it (yes, the current economy CAN get worse).

OPEC controls the price of oil, and a good portion of our oil comes from an OPEC country (Venezuela) who also has a semi-hostile government. So even though we have our own oil, its price will always be tied to the OPEC price of oil and so will the price of all our imported consumer goods.

So bottom line economically: We are over there to make sure we aren't paying $20 gal at the pump and all our Walmart T-shirts aren't $60.

Yep, I have no idea why anyone thinks we can have a totally isolationist foreign policy. That has never worked.

Your ignorant straw man argument aside, 49erfootball provided no good reasons to be over there.

Do you really think that if the US withdrew completely from the Mid East that we would never face any more problems/threats from terrorists? I'll refrain from calling anyone "ignorant".

(10-14-2014 03:12 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 01:08 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Remind me again, why do we have to do anything over there?

Economically:

The US doesn't need Mideast oil; Europe, Japan, and China do. We get the vast majority of our oil from the western hemisphere.

But.........

If Europe, Japan and China have their oil cut off we have to go turn the tap back on.

Why........?

Because all the crap we buy for cheap comes from China; and Europe/Japan tanking would kill the world economy too and our economy with it (yes, the current economy CAN get worse).

OPEC controls the price of oil, and a good portion of our oil comes from an OPEC country (Venezuela) who also has a semi-hostile government. So even though we have our own oil, its price will always be tied to the OPEC price of oil and so will the price of all our imported consumer goods.

So bottom line economically: We are over there to make sure we aren't paying $20 gal at the pump and all our Walmart T-shirts aren't $60.

Yep, I have no idea why anyone thinks we can have a totally isolationist foreign policy. That has never worked.

Your ignorant straw man argument aside, 49erfootball provided no good reasons to be over there.

Do you really think that if the US withdrew completely from the Mid East that we would never face any more problems/threats from terrorists? I'll refrain from calling anyone "ignorant".

Can't say never, but it would be harder to recruit people to attack us in the U.S. We'd still get blamed for the Israel-Palestinian issue to some extent. However, with ISIS I think we need to try to help the Kurds and whatever is left of the Iraqi army in an attempt to minimize the damage from them. I'd like to think that if a bunch of countries chipped in (which they better) we could do some serious damage to ISIS without sending 100K troops over there.

(10-14-2014 03:12 PM)VA49er Wrote:  Do you really think that if the US withdrew completely from the Mid East that we would never face any more problems/threats from terrorists?

What does that have to do w/ this thread?

Quote: I'll refrain from calling anyone "ignorant".

You probably should.

(10-14-2014 01:11 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 12:40 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Draw a red line in the sand (and mean it)

we will carpet bomb the **** out of them (and mean it).

No-one will believe any more red line BS out of the US.

Better to be quiet about a red line until it's crossed and then tell them they crossed the undeclared red line, and if they cross the next one, the same thing will happen.

If (1) gassing Kurds (Iraq), (2) building nukes (Iran), (3) supporting ISIS (Qatar), (4) using chlorine gas on civilians after the Sarin red line was crossed and nothing was done, (5) using barrel bombs on civilian populations, yada yada are not red lines that the US will bomb the **** out of you for, what red line can you possibly propose that anyone will take seriously?

Good point.