This situation was inevitable as soon as we decided it was a good thing for the government to issue student loans.

This model will only lead to a complete takeover of public universities by the government, a' la' k-12. Ruination is absolute.

The only ways college education should be paid for are:

1) pay your own way

2) scholarship

3) GI Bill

4) Private business contracts

(10-14-2014 08:59 AM)slycat Wrote:  Another problem I see at Texas St and other schools is the desire to have luxury dorms. Even when I started in 2003, they did not exist. They opened one in 2004 and it was the most expensive dorm on campus. But students saw it and no longer were willing to live in the cider block cells of decades past. So now the majority of dorms are luxury and that adds to living expenses and the school has to get the money back from building them but its what attracts students. It's a bad cycle.

Have to say that UL built about 3000 new beds on campus in the last three years. These replaced much older facilities and were desperately needed. The former dorms were so poor it had to be done. What it accomplished was to bring a number of students back to campus. They were pretty high end with various living accommodations (single/double room setups). They recently have taken down another set of older dorms (athletic dorms from years past) and I think plan on adding onto the existing housing complex in that area as well.

I have so say that while budgets in Louisiana have been cut about 50% in the last 10 years with plenty of colleges & universities shutting down programs and putting off facility maintenance we're going through a construction spurt in both academic and athletic facilities. It's a great time to be a Cajun.

(10-14-2014 08:59 AM)slycat Wrote:  Another problem I see at Texas St and other schools is the desire to have luxury dorms. Even when I started in 2003, they did not exist. They opened one in 2004 and it was the most expensive dorm on campus. But students saw it and no longer were willing to live in the cider block cells of decades past. So now the majority of dorms are luxury and that adds to living expenses and the school has to get the money back from building them but its what attracts students. It's a bad cycle.

That's something I noticed as well. Starting around that same time all new dorms were built with drywall and carpet. Not the commercial flooring and cinder block walls. I worked in housing and someone said that they expected to get 20 years out of the dorms and then level and rebuild. Previous dorms were in use for over 50 years. I understand that nice dorms are a big attraction, but like you mentioned, that's a TON of cost that the students don't really think about paying for.

I'd hate to be like some place like Switzerland or Germany where they cover most education costs (technical and college) and have much larger skilled workforces per capita than the US and higher median earnings and thus saw much less job loss to places like Malaysia, China and India.

before one can really comment on "data" they need to know what that "data" represents

so lets take a look at that

more than likely here is where this "data" (with nothing else along with it) comes from

http://qz.com/276801/here-are-the-us-col...ack-loans/

what does this article state

Here are the big public schools with the highest three-year default rates. This list is limited to schools that had at least 5,000 students go into repayment mode in fiscal 2011—mostly schools on the large side.

ok so right off the bat we have eliminated a ton of public universities from consideration because you would have to have a graduating class (or more correctly a class of former students going into repayment) of 5,000 or more students each year to be considered

so even with a university that might graduate 50% of their students (UTSA 6 year is 49.2%) you would need a graduating class of 2,500 students and a non-graduating class of 2,500 students (50% + 50%) ALL on student loans and going into repayment to have 5,000 students going into repayment

so that is a pretty large size university right there even if a very very large % of your students are on financial aid/student loans.......so that probably eliminates a pretty large portion of the 34+ public universities in Texas right there from consideration

just using easy generalized numbers if 100% of your university was on student loans and 100% of your university graduated in 4 years and 100% of your university was undergrads and zero grad students you would have a university of 20,000 students

5,000 per year graduating, 5,000 more coming in and then soph., jr. and sr (the next to graduate) all numbering 5,000......or 20,000 total students

and we know that 100% of students at any public university are not on student loans, 100% do not graduate in 4 years or even 5 years or even 6 years and 100% are not undergrads

so it takes a university of well over 20,000 students to meet the criteria to even be on that graph

there are 38 public universities listed in Texas by enrollment......it is really 36 because Rio Grande College is a part of Sul Ross and TAMU-Galveston is really part of College Station, but of those 36 (excluding the above 2) 25 of them have enrollments below 20,000 and most of them are WELL below 20,000

hell 17 of them are below 10,000 students so to make that graph they would have to graduate over half of their enrollment every year and have 100% of them on student loans

so that graph excludes a massive number of the public universities in Texas and the USA in general

next we need to look at the overall numbers for default of public universities

here is a link to that drawn from the above link where the posted "data" came from

http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/default...erates.pdf

so when including ALL public universities we can see that some of the schools on that graph are well withing the overall average of what public university students in general from ALL public universities default at

for 4 year public universities it was 8.9% in 2011

so while no one wants to be "above average" on a bad statistic the reality is someone has to be above average and someone has to be below average unless everyone is average.....and with 650 schools represented that will not be happening.......but it is not as though many on that list are even going to be near the highest overall default rate out of the total 650 4 year public schools listed......they just happen to be the ones that have over 5,000 former students going into repayment while the ones with less than that (many that are still large universities) get a pass from making that particular graph

there are still questions that the administrations of those universities should probably be asking themselves so they can just cut that number down in general.....no matter if they are only slightly above average or where they would fall if all schools were listed.....but it is hardly the horrid reflection on some of them it appears to be at first glance

the first thing I would look at is what major were these students......how many of them graduated and how many did not and how prepared for college overall were those students coming into the university

I can agree with the points previously stated that "go to college" is not for everyone and should not be pushed as hard as it is......but I think the real crime is not "go to college", but rather "get McDegree"

I believe (I would have to look) that "psychology" is the number 1 major and I am pretty sure even larger of a % for females.....as I am sure most with a college degree know there are no "psychologist" jobs for people with an undergrad degree.......for that you need a masters and I would imagine a grossly disproportionate % of students that choose that major going into college have no idea of that......hell I would bet most don't have a clue what they would do even if they had the masters

sure there are human resources jobs and other similar administrative assistant positions available for "physiology" (and philosophy and sociology) majors, but many of them you need no degree for starting out and a degree will only serve to get you above some relatively low glass ceiling in the future over those with no degree.....and many of them are probably getting an associates at community college once they figure that out and that is probably enough for the first ceiling so you and your 4 year degree will still be competing with them for advancement and they probably have "years at the company" going for them while you were in a 4 year university....and that matters at places that hire large amounts of HR/Administrative/paper pusher types.....so your 4 year degree will not help until the next glass ceiling (if ever)

add in "Engrish" majors.....History, Anthropology, Media Studies and on and on and you have people getting degrees that lead them to really no career path......when college has been sold and pushed to them as a CAREER PATH......and all the worse when the common body of knowledge that college used to provide to people has been "PCed" into a series of BS indoctrination classes that fill young minds with mush while stealing dollars and time from them to pay moron professors that would be useless in the real world for anything because even PhDs have been dumbed down significantly in enough subjects to make most that have them nothing but fools incapable of rational thought much less actual insight while empowering them to believe they are without question because they have paper hanging on the wall

I would as an admin look at cutting the enrollment on the programs that were producing the highest number of student loan defaults and upping the admissions requirements for those particular program and possibly even requiring some to enter those programs only after fulfilling their first two years of core courses at a community college or elsewhere with a particular GPA......I would also then tie some faculty pay and raises to employment % for those students coming out of that degree program and I would probably bidding adieu to several of them as well (faculty and possibly even degree programs)

I would look at the overall preparedness rates of those with the highest defaults as well and work to address that.....again possibly by either keeping them out (you do no favors giving people a degree loaded with debt they can't discharge and can't pay off with their "earned" degree) or making cheaper options and transfer paths available/required for them

I would also look at departmental/school/college level efforts and resources expended for job placement after graduation AND while students are in school......are these departments loading students down with "make work" and preventing them from working while in school.....do the students in these majors choose not to work while in school.....does the department/school/college have placement for them......do the professors lift a finger to make it happen.....do those professors even have a clue what career path THEIR students might follow.....have they communicated that to students at all EVER.....if not why not.....do some of them need to hit the road to some other slacker university to fill young minds with mush and load them with debt.....probably so

but again looking at the data and understanding it shows that several on that list are really just "average" or slightly above average in an overall issue that is important and that needs to be addressed......but sadly will probably be incorrectly and poorly and even more harmfully addressed

I started reading the last post for a second, then I looked at the poster and was like nah.

Then I scrolled down the post and was like

(10-14-2014 11:37 AM)SkullyMaroo Wrote:  I started reading the last post for a second, then I looked at the poster and was like nah.

Then I scrolled down the post and was like

ignorance is a choice for some...

(10-13-2014 08:45 PM)sidslidkid Wrote:  They should have gone to White Sands Federal Credit Union... (Anybody that has had to endure AggieVision will get my terrible joke)

Casa de Autos!

(10-14-2014 11:30 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  before one can really comment on "data" they need to know what that "data" represents

so lets take a look at that

more than likely here is where this "data" (with nothing else along with it) comes from

http://qz.com/276801/here-are-the-us-col...ack-loans/

what does this article state

Here are the big public schools with the highest three-year default rates. This list is limited to schools that had at least 5,000 students go into repayment mode in fiscal 2011—mostly schools on the large side.

ok so right off the bat we have eliminated a ton of public universities from consideration because you would have to have a graduating class (or more correctly a class of former students going into repayment) of 5,000 or more students each year to be considered

so even with a university that might graduate 50% of their students (UTSA 6 year is 49.2%) you would need a graduating class of 2,500 students and a non-graduating class of 2,500 students (50% + 50%) ALL on student loans and going into repayment to have 5,000 students going into repayment

so that is a pretty large size university right there even if a very very large % of your students are on financial aid/student loans.......so that probably eliminates a pretty large portion of the 34+ public universities in Texas right there from consideration

just using easy generalized numbers if 100% of your university was on student loans and 100% of your university graduated in 4 years and 100% of your university was undergrads and zero grad students you would have a university of 20,000 students

5,000 per year graduating, 5,000 more coming in and then soph., jr. and sr (the next to graduate) all numbering 5,000......or 20,000 total students

and we know that 100% of students at any public university are not on student loans, 100% do not graduate in 4 years or even 5 years or even 6 years and 100% are not undergrads

so it takes a university of well over 20,000 students to meet the criteria to even be on that graph

there are 38 public universities listed in Texas by enrollment......it is really 36 because Rio Grande College is a part of Sul Ross and TAMU-Galveston is really part of College Station, but of those 36 (excluding the above 2) 25 of them have enrollments below 20,000 and most of them are WELL below 20,000

hell 17 of them are below 10,000 students so to make that graph they would have to graduate over half of their enrollment every year and have 100% of them on student loans

so that graph excludes a massive number of the public universities in Texas and the USA in general

next we need to look at the overall numbers for default of public universities

here is a link to that drawn from the above link where the posted "data" came from

http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/default...erates.pdf

so when including ALL public universities we can see that some of the schools on that graph are well withing the overall average of what public university students in general from ALL public universities default at

for 4 year public universities it was 8.9% in 2011

so while no one wants to be "above average" on a bad statistic the reality is someone has to be above average and someone has to be below average unless everyone is average.....and with 650 schools represented that will not be happening.......but it is not as though many on that list are even going to be near the highest overall default rate out of the total 650 4 year public schools listed......they just happen to be the ones that have over 5,000 former students going into repayment while the ones with less than that (many that are still large universities) get a pass from making that particular graph

there are still questions that the administrations of those universities should probably be asking themselves so they can just cut that number down in general.....no matter if they are only slightly above average or where they would fall if all schools were listed.....but it is hardly the horrid reflection on some of them it appears to be at first glance

the first thing I would look at is what major were these students......how many of them graduated and how many did not and how prepared for college overall were those students coming into the university

I can agree with the points previously stated that "go to college" is not for everyone and should not be pushed as hard as it is......but I think the real crime is not "go to college", but rather "get McDegree"

I believe (I would have to look) that "psychology" is the number 1 major and I am pretty sure even larger of a % for females.....as I am sure most with a college degree know there are no "psychologist" jobs for people with an undergrad degree.......for that you need a masters and I would imagine a grossly disproportionate % of students that choose that major going into college have no idea of that......hell I would bet most don't have a clue what they would do even if they had the masters

sure there are human resources jobs and other similar administrative assistant positions available for "physiology" (and philosophy and sociology) majors, but many of them you need no degree for starting out and a degree will only serve to get you above some relatively low glass ceiling in the future over those with no degree.....and many of them are probably getting an associates at community college once they figure that out and that is probably enough for the first ceiling so you and your 4 year degree will still be competing with them for advancement and they probably have "years at the company" going for them while you were in a 4 year university....and that matters at places that hire large amounts of HR/Administrative/paper pusher types.....so your 4 year degree will not help until the next glass ceiling (if ever)

add in "Engrish" majors.....History, Anthropology, Media Studies and on and on and you have people getting degrees that lead them to really no career path......when college has been sold and pushed to them as a CAREER PATH......and all the worse when the common body of knowledge that college used to provide to people has been "PCed" into a series of BS indoctrination classes that fill young minds with mush while stealing dollars and time from them to pay moron professors that would be useless in the real world for anything because even PhDs have been dumbed down significantly in enough subjects to make most that have them nothing but fools incapable of rational thought much less actual insight while empowering them to believe they are without question because they have paper hanging on the wall

I would as an admin look at cutting the enrollment on the programs that were producing the highest number of student loan defaults and upping the admissions requirements for those particular program and possibly even requiring some to enter those programs only after fulfilling their first two years of core courses at a community college or elsewhere with a particular GPA......I would also then tie some faculty pay and raises to employment % for those students coming out of that degree program and I would probably bidding adieu to several of them as well (faculty and possibly even degree programs)

I would look at the overall preparedness rates of those with the highest defaults as well and work to address that.....again possibly by either keeping them out (you do no favors giving people a degree loaded with debt they can't discharge and can't pay off with their "earned" degree) or making cheaper options and transfer paths available/required for them

I would also look at departmental/school/college level efforts and resources expended for job placement after graduation AND while students are in school......are these departments loading students down with "make work" and preventing them from working while in school.....do the students in these majors choose not to work while in school.....does the department/school/college have placement for them......do the professors lift a finger to make it happen.....do those professors even have a clue what career path THEIR students might follow.....have they communicated that to students at all EVER.....if not why not.....do some of them need to hit the road to some other slacker university to fill young minds with mush and load them with debt.....probably so

but again looking at the data and understanding it shows that several on that list are really just "average" or slightly above average in an overall issue that is important and that needs to be addressed......but sadly will probably be incorrectly and poorly and even more harmfully addressed

OMG! Dude!! I only get a hour for lunch! Don't have time to read all that

In response to the long post. Most kids who enter college have no set career path in mind. They just know have been brought up knowing that they must go to college after high school. College isnt for everyone and luckily high schools are now pushing career tech certifications (LVNs, electricians, A/C & heating, welders, etc) more than they have in the past. Now for those that go to college, they major in something that usually would require a masters to follow but stop at the bachelors so they are stuck with a general bachelors degree. And finally, the kids go to college and get a degree and are searching for a job. They complain that all jobs want experience, but dont know how to get experience. These kids dont know how to pursue internships. Thats how we get the numbers we get.

You have the pretense of a market system combined with the pretense of a government run system.

It is all very complex, but basically the government is backing easy credit for higher education, which alters the supply and demand curve, which alters the price being set, rinse and repeat. Combine this with the easy credit not being tied to education that is actually needed in the workforce in any way and you get rising prices for unneeded education.

(10-14-2014 09:56 AM)The Black Flag Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 08:59 AM)slycat Wrote:  Another problem I see at Texas St and other schools is the desire to have luxury dorms. Even when I started in 2003, they did not exist. They opened one in 2004 and it was the most expensive dorm on campus. But students saw it and no longer were willing to live in the cider block cells of decades past. So now the majority of dorms are luxury and that adds to living expenses and the school has to get the money back from building them but its what attracts students. It's a bad cycle.

That's something I noticed as well. Starting around that same time all new dorms were built with drywall and carpet. Not the commercial flooring and cinder block walls. I worked in housing and someone said that they expected to get 20 years out of the dorms and then level and rebuild. Previous dorms were in use for over 50 years. I understand that nice dorms are a big attraction, but like you mentioned, that's a TON of cost that the students don't really think about paying for.

When I started at Mercer in 1995, one of the dorms didn't even have air conditioning. Macon, GA...August...no A/C available. It's just the way it was. I can't imagine that going over very well pretty much anywhere today.

(10-14-2014 12:50 PM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 09:56 AM)The Black Flag Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 08:59 AM)slycat Wrote:  Another problem I see at Texas St and other schools is the desire to have luxury dorms. Even when I started in 2003, they did not exist. They opened one in 2004 and it was the most expensive dorm on campus. But students saw it and no longer were willing to live in the cider block cells of decades past. So now the majority of dorms are luxury and that adds to living expenses and the school has to get the money back from building them but its what attracts students. It's a bad cycle.

That's something I noticed as well. Starting around that same time all new dorms were built with drywall and carpet. Not the commercial flooring and cinder block walls. I worked in housing and someone said that they expected to get 20 years out of the dorms and then level and rebuild. Previous dorms were in use for over 50 years. I understand that nice dorms are a big attraction, but like you mentioned, that's a TON of cost that the students don't really think about paying for.

When I started at Mercer in 1995, one of the dorms didn't even have air conditioning. Macon, GA...August...no A/C available. It's just the way it was. I can't imagine that going over very well pretty much anywhere today.

I remember that, I went to Mercer for 3 semesters starting in 1997, and had a buddy that lived in that dorm, but the name escapes me. It was a really neat old building and his room was huge and had high ceilings and stuff, we hung out there a lot, think he put in a window unit. I lived in Plunkett, which was a ***thole, but it did have AC. I agree with your point though, I bet that university dorm rooms in the South sans AC these days are few and far between if there are any.

There was an all guys dorm at TXST with no AC. In Texas! They would put big fans in their windows.


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(10-14-2014 12:59 PM)boroeagle2 Wrote:  I remember that, I went to Mercer for 3 semesters starting in 1997, and had a buddy that lived in that dorm, but the name escapes me. It was a really neat old building and his room was huge and had high ceilings and stuff, we hung out there a lot, think he put in a window unit. I lived in Plunkett, which was a ***thole, but it did have AC. I agree with your point though, I bet that university dorm rooms in the South sans AC these days are few and far between if there are any.

Haha! Yeah, I lived in Plunkett, too, with a buddy (actually my best friend to this day...other than my wife) over in Sherwood (the AC-less one). It was definitely the one to hang out in with all the space. Open the windows, turn on a box fan, and pop open a cold beer, and you really didn't need anything more comfortable than that.

(10-14-2014 01:05 PM)slycat Wrote:  There was an all guys dorm at TXST with no AC. In Texas! They would put big fans in their windows.

The one at Mercer was also all guys. I actually haven't even followed up on it, but my assumption for a long time has been that they added AC at some point.

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  You have the pretense of a market system combined with the pretense of a government run system.

It is all very complex, but basically the government is backing easy credit for higher education, which alters the supply and demand curve, which alters the price being set, rinse and repeat. Combine this with the easy credit not being tied to education that is actually needed in the workforce in any way and you get rising prices for unneeded education.

This right here.

Colleges have no incentive to keep costs low and students are willing to borrow huge loans that are unconditionally available whether you attend a decent regional school or an online diploma mill.

You know what I think will drastically alter college athletics as we know it? Not changes in NCAA rules or P5 autonomy or anything like that. I think it's inevitable that the federal government will start to regulate how colleges can spend money, and you know that sports are a convenient scapegoat for ballooning overheads.

(10-14-2014 12:48 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  You have the pretense of a market system combined with the pretense of a government run system.

It is all very complex, but basically the government is backing easy credit for higher education, which alters the supply and demand curve, which alters the price being set, rinse and repeat. Combine this with the easy credit not being tied to education that is actually needed in the workforce in any way and you get rising prices for unneeded education.

Right on the money!

(10-14-2014 01:28 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  ...I think it's inevitable that the federal government will start to regulate how colleges can spend money, and you know that sports are a convenient scapegoat for ballooning overheads.

I agree.

When the time comes to drop the hammer, it won't fall on the Psych department, or Women's Studies, or Minority Affairs. etc. etc.

It will fall on all government funding of athletics.

The media is already out to destroy American football. This can only help in their cause.

I doubt if anyone cares and don't know where else to post this but I received my letter stating that my loans were paid in full yesterday! A great birthday present!