One of the biggest factors in the depth problem is how many of the decent recruits that aren't even on the roster right now. There are a number of contributors to that, some within our control and some not. The coaching turnover probably caused some of it. I hate to even bring it up as it relates to football, but the accident of course impacted 3 guys from the same class.

Meanwhile, if you take a look at the bottom half of our last 5 classes, you see a lot of guys that have stuck (and in some cases developed into our best players). I don't know what exactly that means or if it is common, but I do think it's a factor that the people who have gained us a decent recruiting ranking are not the ones who end up actually playing on Saturdays.

Maybe we take chances to get some higher recruits when we should be landing a higher quantity of productive guys that will be here and develop, I don't know. However we got here, I think our team is top-heavy as a result. Guys like Kiel, Luc, Temple, Mouhon, McKay, Moore, Payne are good players, but the minute we have any injuries or even need a rest the depth just isn't even passable.

(10-15-2014 02:13 AM)Ragpicker Wrote:  

(10-14-2014 10:48 PM)Dannyboy Wrote:  I still don't know what the fix is for the talent gaps. The DTs are horrible. They can't stop anyone, ever. So we have to put more guys in the box and crash the line of scrimmage. That means man coverage. Oops. Our secondary is incapable of that.

What do we do? I think Bear Bryant would have issues here.

More athletic guys in the box (3-4), run and pass blitz, and start the secondary 5 to 10 yards off the line in man coverage. One rule - no one gets behind you. That will reduce yardage gained running the ball, and all receptions will be kept in front of the back line of defense.

If the opposing QB can quickly read the blitz and accurately hit the hot route, then we will give up some yards. So nothings changed except it will take longer to score.

But we can also force more mistakes, errant throws, and some turnovers by putting the QB under pressure. Something that is NOT happening now.

Absolutely agree on the 3-4. Why put two crappy DTs on the field when the talent at LB is better? May as well just use one and rotate them often.

Getting some of our younger & faster athletes out there should also be a priority. We've burned Kevin Mouhon's red shirt, let's get him out there as much as possible. At this point, the ideas we came into the season with have failed. In many cases certain players have failed. Stop sending them out there. Put the fastest & most aggressive players on the field and attack.

All that said, we will still have a fairly lousy D if we do all of this. But hopefully it will go from "worst" to just "bad."

(10-15-2014 06:50 AM)mac6115cd Wrote:  5 years is a bit too generous. You should start to see a marked improvement by year 3. By then, your recruits are sophomores and juniors and your "system" should be in place.

Look at ND. Last year was Kelly's 3rd year and if Golson hadn't messed up, they would have be title contenders - as they are this year.

Look at UT. Jones is in his 2nd year and UT is improving, but next year will be all his and they should be competing for division championships.

So, I don't expect a big improvement until Tubb's 3rd year - even though I really want it now. If it doesn't materialize, then I say cut him loose. But, you have to give a coach time.

What's going on now has zero impact on if UC gets an invitation to a P5 conference. We have too many positives to let one bad season matter.

We've been spoiled over the past 5 years but we have to be patient and support Tubbs and the team. Playing "musical coaches" will not produce a winning program.

UT is improving?!? Really? Might be b/c I live in Atlanta, i.e. heart of SECland, but the perspective is different down here. UT will NOT be competing for division championships next year. Other than a close win over S.Carolina last year he hasn't done jack squat in conference. He's gotten close to beating UGA and UF, but close ain't gonna cut it. Look for him to feel his seat warming next year....but i digress.

Rath is mos def entitled to his opinion, so I won't go into that.

All I'll say is I can't really understand why ppl are so fixated on this recruits for "Big East." That's just a meaningless statement. Go look at the standard deviation b/t avg recruit rankings and you'll see there's only a marginal difference. Our Big East brethren that have moved on aren't experiencing some substantial gain. It's all statistically insignificant....but i digress...again.

There's a talent problem here folks. The classes Butch brought in were busts. Go back and look at all the supposedly good classes/ recruits he brought in. They're either no longer on the team, or they're playing and they're part and parcel of the problem. I mean, who is THE signature Butch recruit? I could def be missing it, but there's no I. Pead, Pike, Celek, or any of the types of guys we can attribute to MD or BK.

like someone else said, even Bear Bryant would have a difficult time getting this cast of characters together.

That's not to say that coaching on the D side of things hasn't been horrible, cuz it has.....but rarely are things 100% attributable to one thing or the other. I think it's fair to say talent is a major contributor to UC's current woes.


mc

TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

(10-15-2014 06:50 AM)mac6115cd Wrote:  5 years is a bit too generous. You should start to see a marked improvement by year 3. By then, your recruits are sophomores and juniors and your "system" should be in place.

Look at ND. Last year was Kelly's 3rd year and if Golson hadn't messed up, they would have be title contenders - as they are this year.

Look at UT. Jones is in his 2nd year and UT is improving, but next year will be all his and they should be competing for division championships.

So, I don't expect a big improvement until Tubb's 3rd year - even though I really want it now. If it doesn't materialize, then I say cut him loose. But, you have to give a coach time.

What's going on now has zero impact on if UC gets an invitation to a P5 conference. We have too many positives to let one bad season matter.

We've been spoiled over the past 5 years but we have to be patient and support Tubbs and the team. Playing "musical coaches" will not produce a winning program.

Last year ND was 9-4. The year before they were in the NC game, even though they really had no business being there - and were probably in quality the 5th or 6th best team Alabama played that year.

This year they are title contenders in record only. They should have lost last week to North Carolina. For point of reference ECU hung 70 points on NC and batted them around like a cat with a wounded chipmunk.

ND is going to play the other insanely overrated team in the top 5 this week #2 Florida State. They are #2 despite the fact that I think Florida State would lose to over half the teams in the SEC. Still my guess is they are good enough to beat ND and maybe even the spread which is currently FL St. -11.5.

(10-15-2014 12:49 PM)Marcus Wrote:  TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

The problem is Butch just isn't that good of a coach. The downturn in coaching was incredibly noticeable when Brian Kelly left.

(10-15-2014 01:22 PM)Overrated Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 12:49 PM)Marcus Wrote:  TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

The problem is Butch just isn't that good of a coach. The downturn in coaching was incredibly noticeable when Brian Kelly left.

Very few coaches are as good as Brian Kelly. He's a Top 3 coach in the country without question.

The problem with Jones coaching-wise is I don't think his offensive staff is very good. Mahoney and Bajakian are a below average OL coach and below average Offensive Coordinator.

(10-15-2014 12:49 PM)Marcus Wrote:  TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

Marcus - I defer to you regarding talent. You know the situation a lot better than most of us.

A few interesting Stats about Jones. When replacing a coach he either has less wins following a previous regime (CMU - BK last yr 10-4 / Jones first 8-6 or Cincy BK's last yr 12-1 / Jones first 4-8) or equals the last regime (UT - Dooley's last yr 5-7 / Jones first 5-7).

He is is 18-30 vs the P5.

He is 1-14 vs the Top25. His lone win was against #11 South Carolina, last year.

(10-15-2014 01:39 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 12:49 PM)Marcus Wrote:  TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

Marcus - I defer to you regarding talent. You know the situation a lot better than most of us.

A few interesting Stats about Jones. When replacing a coach he either has less wins following a previous regime (CMU - BK last yr 10-4 / Jones first 8-6 or Cincy BK's last yr 12-1 / Jones first 4-8) or equals the last regime (UT - Dooley's last yr 5-7 / Jones first 5-7).

He is is 18-30 vs the P5.

He is 1-14 vs the Top25. His lone win was against #11 South Carolina, last year.

All I know is he inherited a horrendous situation at Tennessee. Dooley left him literally nothing talent-wise. He not only couldn't win at Tennessee but he couldn't recruit and the top players he did land were almost all bad character kids that other schools took a pass on who have been booted from the program. He may not win at Tennessee, but the talent will not be an issue in a few years like it currently is. I'm personally amazed that this TN team was even remotely competitive with Georgia and Florida this year considering they are starting 9 true freshman.

Marcus - completely agree with BK. Top 3 coach. Just think what he could do with a roster, such as Bama. I have heard, as well, that the talent was lacking under Dooley. However, didn't they have a number of guys get drafted to the NFL last year? The book is still out on Jones. The SC game surprised me last year. Also, they have played UGA tough. Ole Miss is coming up next. I have spoken to a few Ole Miss fans and they are worried about this week being a trap game. Next year will be the year to see what happens to Jones at UT.

(10-15-2014 01:50 PM)bearcatmill Wrote:  Marcus - completely agree with BK. Top 3 coach. Just think what he could do with a roster, such as Bama. I have heard, as well, that the talent was lacking under Dooley. However, didn't they have a number of guys get drafted to the NFL last year? The book is still out on Jones. The SC game surprised me last year. Also, they have played UGA tough. Ole Miss is coming up next. I have spoken to a few Ole Miss fans and they are worried about this week being a trap game. Next year will be the year to see what happens to Jones at UT.

They've had some good individual players but he left certain position totally devoid of talent and/or depth. It's worse than I've ever seen Tennessee's program in from an across the board talent standpoint. The OL for example is one glaring weakness. He had one good class (seniors last year) and after that he actually went an entire recruiting class without signing a single offensive lineman and this is the first year that is showing up. The same thing happened with the defensive line and defensive back situation. Just zero depth or talent on the roster. I think it will be the 2016 before anyone can really hold Jones accountable for the results in the W-L column.

(10-15-2014 01:22 PM)Overrated Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 12:49 PM)Marcus Wrote:  TN's roster is definitely improving and in a huge way actually. The current freshman class is loaded and so is the current recruiting class they are bringing in. It's obviously a process, especially in the SEC when your previous coach left them with the worst talent in the entire league, but they are setting themselves up nicely for 2016 and beyond IMO. If you watch the SEC network at all you'd notice, even the biggest UF and UGA homers on that network talk about how young and talented TN is and to watch out for them a few years down the road.

The problem is Butch just isn't that good of a coach. The downturn in coaching was incredibly noticeable when Brian Kelly left.

Totally agree. Jones is simply not a good coach.

@Marcus....all things being equal ALL the teams (sans UK [which is changing], Vandy and maybe AK) have young highly rated talent and blah blah blah. If you want to see what an example of a fast turnaround looks like just look at Ole Miss. Situation was just as dire, for even longer....AND he's doing it in the hardest division within the SEC. The degree of difficulty is significantly higher and with less resources. Butch is just another Ron Zook in the SEC. He can recruit his tail off, but when you're matching wits with some of the best coaches in the entire nation and you have suspect coaching abilities it's gonna show....and fast.

In either case, he's still got some time to prove his self. Of course the commentators are going to cut him some slack. Actually, even the UT folks i know LOVE him.....for all the same ways he was loved here. He's pulling the same act. Won't save him unless he starts winning against good teams. As another commentor pointed out, he has a very very iffy history against these




mc

Not saying he is Bo Schembechler but I would take Jones and his staff over the guys we have now all day and twice on Sundays.

(10-15-2014 07:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Not saying he is Bo Schembechler but I would take Jones and his staff over the guys we have now all day and twice on Sundays.

One word: Munchie

(10-15-2014 06:21 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  5 years? Those days are pretty much long gone in the game any more. He gets all of next year. If we are stuck in 1st gear at the end of year #3, mix in the meh conference slate I think you will see a degree of apathy develop in folks reaching in them jeans and pulling out them greens for year #2 of the updated Nippert.

I agree that three is fair. Not expecting a world-beater, relative to this crap now, but the least I expect is forward progress.

I am much more concerned with Hughes than Tubs in the present.

(10-15-2014 07:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Not saying he is Bo Schembechler but I would take Jones and his staff over the guys we have now all day and twice on Sundays.

Well, we now have a way to compare the 2. Let's see how well Butch does in the SEC. Personally, I find it unlikely he'll be around in the conference for any extended length of time.....much less put up an undefeated season in it.



mc

(10-16-2014 08:24 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 07:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Not saying he is Bo Schembechler but I would take Jones and his staff over the guys we have now all day and twice on Sundays.

Well, we now have a way to compare the 2. Let's see how well Butch does in the SEC. Personally, I find it unlikely he'll be around in the conference for any extended length of time.....much less put up an undefeated season in it.



mc

Saw on some rumor site that Butch was mentioned as a possible replacement for Hoke at Michigan. He is a native of Michigan, but is also a Rich Rod guy, so who knows.

(10-16-2014 08:24 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  

(10-15-2014 07:10 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Not saying he is Bo Schembechler but I would take Jones and his staff over the guys we have now all day and twice on Sundays.

Well, we now have a way to compare the 2. Let's see how well Butch does in the SEC. Personally, I find it unlikely he'll be around in the conference for any extended length of time.....much less put up an undefeated season in it.



mc

I dont think its a fair comparison...if we had tommy back in the day it would be different. Also the SEC top to bottom now is a more difficult league.

(10-16-2014 08:24 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  Well, we now have a way to compare the 2. Let's see how well Butch does in the SEC. Personally, I find it unlikely he'll be around in the conference for any extended length of time.....much less put up an undefeated season in it.

Not really, because Tuberville isn't the same coach as he was a decade ago.

(10-16-2014 09:14 AM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  

(10-16-2014 08:24 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  Well, we now have a way to compare the 2. Let's see how well Butch does in the SEC. Personally, I find it unlikely he'll be around in the conference for any extended length of time.....much less put up an undefeated season in it.

Not really, because Tuberville isn't the same coach as he was a decade ago.

I didn't position it in that way, more so hedging to say Butch won't be able to accomplish what Tubs did in the SEC.

Regarding whether or not Tubs is the same guy.....idk....but from folks who were at AU when he was there and are just fans of the school and familiar with his work, it's pretty clear that it's not so much that Tubs is a coaching mastermind as much as who does he have supporting him. Look at his assistances during his SEC years. They're head coaches. His list of assistances is impressive. Think of Tubs as more of a CEO HC. Always has been.




mc