(10-08-2014 02:13 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 01:34 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 08:40 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 10:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Why is it that unemployment numbers were never in question until now?

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Were you been? Those figures have been questioned probably since they starting publishing them. Same with all govt data.

Yea, don't confuse Fit with history. He doesn't know much about the subject.

Not necessary.

Sure it was. It made me chuckle.

(10-08-2014 02:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 01:29 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 12:52 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 12:43 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 11:31 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Probably not, but they don't name a source and no one else is reporting this. You at least have to wait for something a tad more corroborative before betting the farm on it.

OK, I'll wait until the HuffPost reports it.

The MSM isn't going to report this story because it doesn't fit their meme.

And no matter what problems Murdoch has had, it doesn't imply that the Post's reporting is false. Heck, Murdoch's minions hacked the Brits' phones so they could get at the truth. That apparently was OK when the DoJ did it to AP and James Rosen.

Again, you clearly don't know much about huffpo. They rarely report or break stuff. They mainly only provide links to online articles and rehash them with some of their commentary.

And what is the MSM's meme? Waiting for actual corroborated facts first?

Then I'll wait until HuffPost provides the link.

Corroborated facts are only applicable if they fit the proper narrative.

And for this story in particular, what corroboration will you need? Someone from the Washington headquarters of the Census Bureau saying "Yep, that's what we've been doing."

Something more than anonymous partisan sources. Sorry.

But hey, not even Fox News has anything on it.

Can you provide any support for your allegation of "partisan" sources? Or are you just assuming partisanship?

(10-08-2014 07:39 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:05 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 11:03 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 10:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Why is it that unemployment numbers were never in question until now?

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Until now??? Sorry, but ...

http://nypost.com/2013/11/18/census-fake...bs-report/

Lol. I meant until this President took office.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Because this President is black and everyone knows you can't trust a black man.

At least someone isn't afraid to say what many are thinking.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(10-07-2014 10:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Why is it that unemployment numbers were never in question until now?

I think they've always been in question. I remember they were questioned as far back as Nixon. It's at best a somewhat shaky methodology, because they have to use a lot of estimates and surrogates.

(10-07-2014 08:51 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Not the first time we've heard this.

Quote: A field supervisor in the Census Bureau’s Denver region has informed her organization’s higher-ups, the head of the Commerce Department and congressional investigators that she believes economic data collected by her office is being falsified.

And this whistleblower — who asked that I not identify her — said her bosses in Denver ignored her warnings even after she provided details of wrongdoing by three different survey takers.

The three continued to collect data even after she reported them.

When I spoke with this whistleblower earlier this year as part of my investigation of Census, she told me that hundreds of interviews that go into the Labor Department’s unemployment rate and inflation surveys would miraculously be completed just hours before deadline.

The implication was that someone with the ability to fill in the blanks on incomplete surveys was doing just that.

The Denver whistleblower also provided to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform the names of other Census workers who can spill the beans about data fraud in other regions.

Census is broken up into six regions. Cheating has already been proven in the Philadelphia region. And with this whistleblower’s letter, Census authorities now have allegations that the same kind of nonsense was going on in Denver — that office covers Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming

http://nypost.com/2014/10/06/denver-cens...-to-light/

http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...on-2013-11

A Census spokesperson confirmed to Business Insider that the Census Bureau employee quoted in the story, Julius Buckmon, has not worked there since August 2011. This was first reported by CNBC's Steve Liesman.

The Post story never mentions this fact. A spokesman for the Post didn't immediately return a request for comment as to why.

"We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

(10-08-2014 04:05 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 02:16 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 01:29 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 12:52 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 12:43 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  OK, I'll wait until the HuffPost reports it.

The MSM isn't going to report this story because it doesn't fit their meme.

And no matter what problems Murdoch has had, it doesn't imply that the Post's reporting is false. Heck, Murdoch's minions hacked the Brits' phones so they could get at the truth. That apparently was OK when the DoJ did it to AP and James Rosen.

Again, you clearly don't know much about huffpo. They rarely report or break stuff. They mainly only provide links to online articles and rehash them with some of their commentary.

And what is the MSM's meme? Waiting for actual corroborated facts first?

Then I'll wait until HuffPost provides the link.

Corroborated facts are only applicable if they fit the proper narrative.

And for this story in particular, what corroboration will you need? Someone from the Washington headquarters of the Census Bureau saying "Yep, that's what we've been doing."

Something more than anonymous partisan sources. Sorry.

But hey, not even Fox News has anything on it.

Can you provide any support for your allegation of "partisan" sources? Or are you just assuming partisanship?

I was referring to the NY Post, which is a conservative leaning Rupert Murdoch production. I didn't mean to imply that the person making the claim as partisan. Although you can see in the post above (#25) that this is pretty much a non-story, and one manipulated to their advantage by the NYP...just as I expected.

(10-08-2014 08:08 PM)BobL Wrote:  "We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

So, they are going with the "roque agent in the Cincinnati office" excuse. That tells me it's a coordinated effort from the top to trick out the numbers. Thanks for the info!

(10-08-2014 08:08 PM)BobL Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 08:51 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Not the first time we've heard this.

Quote: A field supervisor in the Census Bureau’s Denver region has informed her organization’s higher-ups, the head of the Commerce Department and congressional investigators that she believes economic data collected by her office is being falsified.

And this whistleblower — who asked that I not identify her — said her bosses in Denver ignored her warnings even after she provided details of wrongdoing by three different survey takers.

The three continued to collect data even after she reported them.

When I spoke with this whistleblower earlier this year as part of my investigation of Census, she told me that hundreds of interviews that go into the Labor Department’s unemployment rate and inflation surveys would miraculously be completed just hours before deadline.

The implication was that someone with the ability to fill in the blanks on incomplete surveys was doing just that.

The Denver whistleblower also provided to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform the names of other Census workers who can spill the beans about data fraud in other regions.

Census is broken up into six regions. Cheating has already been proven in the Philadelphia region. And with this whistleblower’s letter, Census authorities now have allegations that the same kind of nonsense was going on in Denver — that office covers Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming

http://nypost.com/2014/10/06/denver-cens...-to-light/

http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...on-2013-11

A Census spokesperson confirmed to Business Insider that the Census Bureau employee quoted in the story, Julius Buckmon, has not worked there since August 2011. This was first reported by CNBC's Steve Liesman.

The Post story never mentions this fact. A spokesman for the Post didn't immediately return a request for comment as to why.

"We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

I'm confused.. Bob, you're quoting a 2013 story with a person who was named.

ERC quoted a story from 2014 where the whistleblower asked NOT to be named....

I'm trying to understand your argument on this one...

(10-09-2014 09:40 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 08:08 PM)BobL Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 08:51 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Not the first time we've heard this.

Quote: A field supervisor in the Census Bureau’s Denver region has informed her organization’s higher-ups, the head of the Commerce Department and congressional investigators that she believes economic data collected by her office is being falsified.

And this whistleblower — who asked that I not identify her — said her bosses in Denver ignored her warnings even after she provided details of wrongdoing by three different survey takers.

The three continued to collect data even after she reported them.

When I spoke with this whistleblower earlier this year as part of my investigation of Census, she told me that hundreds of interviews that go into the Labor Department’s unemployment rate and inflation surveys would miraculously be completed just hours before deadline.

The implication was that someone with the ability to fill in the blanks on incomplete surveys was doing just that.

The Denver whistleblower also provided to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform the names of other Census workers who can spill the beans about data fraud in other regions.

Census is broken up into six regions. Cheating has already been proven in the Philadelphia region. And with this whistleblower’s letter, Census authorities now have allegations that the same kind of nonsense was going on in Denver — that office covers Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming

http://nypost.com/2014/10/06/denver-cens...-to-light/

http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...on-2013-11

A Census spokesperson confirmed to Business Insider that the Census Bureau employee quoted in the story, Julius Buckmon, has not worked there since August 2011. This was first reported by CNBC's Steve Liesman.

The Post story never mentions this fact. A spokesman for the Post didn't immediately return a request for comment as to why.

"We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

I'm confused.. Bob, you're quoting a 2013 story with a person who was named.

ERC quoted a story from 2014 where the whistleblower asked NOT to be named....

I'm trying to understand your argument on this one...

This story refutes the first story about this from the post. The OP contains a link to this first claim along with the story about the second one.

Bottom line, you can't trust the post alone...we need another source.

(10-09-2014 10:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-09-2014 09:40 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 08:08 PM)BobL Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 08:51 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Not the first time we've heard this.

Quote: A field supervisor in the Census Bureau’s Denver region has informed her organization’s higher-ups, the head of the Commerce Department and congressional investigators that she believes economic data collected by her office is being falsified.

And this whistleblower — who asked that I not identify her — said her bosses in Denver ignored her warnings even after she provided details of wrongdoing by three different survey takers.

The three continued to collect data even after she reported them.

When I spoke with this whistleblower earlier this year as part of my investigation of Census, she told me that hundreds of interviews that go into the Labor Department’s unemployment rate and inflation surveys would miraculously be completed just hours before deadline.

The implication was that someone with the ability to fill in the blanks on incomplete surveys was doing just that.

The Denver whistleblower also provided to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform the names of other Census workers who can spill the beans about data fraud in other regions.

Census is broken up into six regions. Cheating has already been proven in the Philadelphia region. And with this whistleblower’s letter, Census authorities now have allegations that the same kind of nonsense was going on in Denver — that office covers Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming

http://nypost.com/2014/10/06/denver-cens...-to-light/

http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...on-2013-11

A Census spokesperson confirmed to Business Insider that the Census Bureau employee quoted in the story, Julius Buckmon, has not worked there since August 2011. This was first reported by CNBC's Steve Liesman.

The Post story never mentions this fact. A spokesman for the Post didn't immediately return a request for comment as to why.

"We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

I'm confused.. Bob, you're quoting a 2013 story with a person who was named.

ERC quoted a story from 2014 where the whistleblower asked NOT to be named....

I'm trying to understand your argument on this one...

This story refutes the first story about this from the post. The OP contains a link to this first claim along with the story about the second one.

Bottom line, you can't trust the post alone...we need another source.

Bottom line is that the Post appears to be doing an exemplary job of investigative journalism. Investigative reporting is almost always the work of a single reporter (or team) at one newspaper and as such, there would be no reason to expect any other source to corroborate. I'm sure that other sources will eventually report the denial by the Census uppity ups.

The OP notes that the original source Julius, who worked in the Philly office, led to an IG's investigation. Now they have found a second source, in Denver, to suggest that this happens in more than one office. This is what good journalists do. Dig, dig, dig. Sort of like Sherly Attkinsson before she was stopped by CBS from digging into the administration.

Looks like a Pulitzer to me.

Twice I've seen Tom reference the new AUP..

Must mean he's losing an argument.

Just saying.

(10-09-2014 10:37 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Twice I've seen Tom reference the new AUP..

Must mean he's losing an argument.

Just saying.

Clearly.

(10-09-2014 10:41 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-09-2014 10:37 AM)gdunn Wrote:  Twice I've seen Tom reference the new AUP..

Must mean he's losing an argument.

Just saying.

Clearly.

You can't have a discussion, I've seen that. If you can't post a reason from a news source on a subject you know nothing of, you leave, or cite the AUP.

It's ok Tom. Use it to your advantage.

(10-09-2014 10:23 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  Bottom line is that the Post appears to be doing an exemplary job of investigative journalism. Investigative reporting is almost always the work of a single reporter (or team) at one newspaper and as such, there would be no reason to expect any other source to corroborate. I'm sure that other sources will eventually report the denial by the Census uppity ups.

This is why I'm confused..

We've had one source say "numbers are being fudged in location 1".

They try to spin it as a "the whistleblower was breaking rules"

Now we've got source #2 saying "Numbers were fudged here in Denver".

To me that sounds like corroboration of story #1?

I alway call fabrics on government data.

(10-09-2014 09:40 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(10-08-2014 08:08 PM)BobL Wrote:  

(10-07-2014 08:51 PM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  

Not the first time we've heard this.

Quote: A field supervisor in the Census Bureau’s Denver region has informed her organization’s higher-ups, the head of the Commerce Department and congressional investigators that she believes economic data collected by her office is being falsified.

And this whistleblower — who asked that I not identify her — said her bosses in Denver ignored her warnings even after she provided details of wrongdoing by three different survey takers.

The three continued to collect data even after she reported them.

When I spoke with this whistleblower earlier this year as part of my investigation of Census, she told me that hundreds of interviews that go into the Labor Department’s unemployment rate and inflation surveys would miraculously be completed just hours before deadline.

The implication was that someone with the ability to fill in the blanks on incomplete surveys was doing just that.

The Denver whistleblower also provided to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform the names of other Census workers who can spill the beans about data fraud in other regions.

Census is broken up into six regions. Cheating has already been proven in the Philadelphia region. And with this whistleblower’s letter, Census authorities now have allegations that the same kind of nonsense was going on in Denver — that office covers Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Dakota, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah and Wyoming

http://nypost.com/2014/10/06/denver-cens...-to-light/

http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...on-2013-11

A Census spokesperson confirmed to Business Insider that the Census Bureau employee quoted in the story, Julius Buckmon, has not worked there since August 2011. This was first reported by CNBC's Steve Liesman.

The Post story never mentions this fact. A spokesman for the Post didn't immediately return a request for comment as to why.

"We have no reason to believe this isn't an isolated incident," the Census spokesperson told Business Insider. "This was an employee who was willfully disobeying Census procedures and disobeying the law."

I'm confused.. Bob, you're quoting a 2013 story with a person who was named.

ERC quoted a story from 2014 where the whistleblower asked NOT to be named....

I'm trying to understand your argument on this one...

Should have been more clear...but essentially the point was that this is not the first time the Post has run stories such as this and the first one used a source that was eventually discredited Julius Buckmon.
This second story now uses an unnamed source...

Quote:...the first one used a source that was eventually discredited Julius Buckmon.

The newest story notes that the original source Julius, who worked in the Philly office, led to an IG's investigation. That is hardly being discredited. Now they have found a second source, in Denver, to suggest that this happens in more than one office.

As reported:

Quote:The case of falsified data in Philly — by a surveyor named Julius Buckmon — resulted in a lengthy investigation by Commerce’s Inspector General as well as the probe by the Oversight Committee and the Joint Economic Committee.

The IG’s investigation resulted in widespread changes in the way data is collected and checked. One of the key changes is that supervisors can no longer conduct what are called “re-interviews” of their own workers’ surveys.

(10-10-2014 09:20 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

Quote:...the first one used a source that was eventually discredited Julius Buckmon.

The newest story notes that the original source Julius, who worked in the Philly office, led to an IG's investigation. That is hardly being discredited. Now they have found a second source, in Denver, to suggest that this happens in more than one office.

As reported:

Quote:The case of falsified data in Philly — by a surveyor named Julius Buckmon — resulted in a lengthy investigation by Commerce’s Inspector General as well as the probe by the Oversight Committee and the Joint Economic Committee.

The IG’s investigation resulted in widespread changes in the way data is collected and checked. One of the key changes is that supervisors can no longer conduct what are called “re-interviews” of their own workers’ surveys.

Ugh....You are right, the original post story was discredited(not Buckmon) as the story talked about a September 2012 jobs report when Buckmon was let go in 2011 and uses citations from 2010...

The report — titled "Census 'faked' 2012 election jobs report" — claims that employees conducting the household survey (the one that determines the unemployment rate) were pressured by higher-ups to fudge surveys to fill in data gaps when they could not get adequate response rates.

Beyond Buckmon, the Post story cites an anonymous "knowledgeable source" who claimed that the data manipulation "escalated at the time President Obama was seeking reelection in 2012 and continues today."

This source is also responsible for the allegation that a weird-looking jobs report in September 2012 — which conservatives at the time suggested could have been intentionally manipulated — was "faked" to produce a decline in the unemployment rate from 8.1% in August to 7.8% in September.

The Post story also cites confidential documents — but all of the issues cited from the documents are from 2010.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ny-post-e...z3Fkqrefzs

(10-10-2014 09:20 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

Quote:...the first one used a source that was eventually discredited Julius Buckmon.

The newest story notes that the original source Julius, who worked in the Philly office, led to an IG's investigation. That is hardly being discredited. Now they have found a second source, in Denver, to suggest that this happens in more than one office.

As reported:

Quote:The case of falsified data in Philly — by a surveyor named Julius Buckmon — resulted in a lengthy investigation by Commerce’s Inspector General as well as the probe by the Oversight Committee and the Joint Economic Committee.

The IG’s investigation resulted in widespread changes in the way data is collected and checked. One of the key changes is that supervisors can no longer conduct what are called “re-interviews” of their own workers’ surveys.

I was going to say, Buckmon was never discredited (to my knowledge).... their supervisor tried to cover their ass by claiming rules were broken, but the only rule Buckmon broke (again that I remember) was going public with the information.

(10-10-2014 10:04 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(10-10-2014 09:20 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

Quote:...the first one used a source that was eventually discredited Julius Buckmon.

The newest story notes that the original source Julius, who worked in the Philly office, led to an IG's investigation. That is hardly being discredited. Now they have found a second source, in Denver, to suggest that this happens in more than one office.

As reported:

Quote:The case of falsified data in Philly — by a surveyor named Julius Buckmon — resulted in a lengthy investigation by Commerce’s Inspector General as well as the probe by the Oversight Committee and the Joint Economic Committee.

The IG’s investigation resulted in widespread changes in the way data is collected and checked. One of the key changes is that supervisors can no longer conduct what are called “re-interviews” of their own workers’ surveys.

I was going to say, Buckmon was never discredited (to my knowledge).... their supervisor tried to cover their ass by claiming rules were broken, but the only rule Buckmon broke (again that I remember) was going public with the information.

Bingo. Isn't it interesting that the only rule that gets you in trouble with ANY government agency, is telling the truth about what is happening.