(10-01-2014 01:56 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I think the context of what I wrote provides the back-up for my statement:

Quote:There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

Sure, everyone likes a Canada, but they do not have the economic might to facilitate a global economic recovery. A China is big enough to facilitate a global economic recovery, but their global reputation (human rights, communist, etc) is too strained for them to lead.

The USA however flawed still has the best of what it takes to make the difference.

The goal of this thread is to draw out some of these assumptions and look at them in their entirety.

So, I guess the question becomes, in light of your response, what makes you think that we are and are to remain the economic driver when we are not the top exporter, and many other indicators, trade deficit etc, point to decline?

Is it our smiling faces that keep people coming? Or are they coming anymore?

In Africa and other parts of the developing world people are increasingly turning elsewhere over us, especially China.

(10-01-2014 01:44 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:35 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  You want a frank and honest discussion about the USA? Our education system should be better because vague claims of societal decline aren't useful in any meaningful way.

I agree with this, however, how the hell do we improve our education system? We have thrown money at the issue, and that doesn't fix it. I think we need to start separating kids out into tracks, but that isn't PC these days.

I certainly don't have those answers, but this could be a good start.

Several places teachers barely make more than someone pushing buggies at Wal Mart and they're so far in debt with student loans, they usually have to take other jobs to make ends meet.

Our problem stems with how we distribute money through our government. Again I think people serving in state government and even our federal government make too much money. You pay those representing their states the average salary in that state, you'll see change in government. Same with in the state capitals. You pay them all what the average is in their district, you'll weed out several career politicians. Take that money and pay teachers.

Just a thought.

(10-01-2014 01:54 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:39 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Societal Decline,...you need evidence? Look around!!

Ok, let's look around.





What exactly are you referring to when you make that claim?

What the hell is happening in PA. Yes these are useful metrics in societal decline but these are only a few metrics about society. there are intangibles that cannot be quantified. I am listing a few things i believe to be wrong with society now.

1. the millennial generation is perceived to be lazy
2. society cares more about online social activism than doing something tangible
3. society has a sense of entitlement which stems from "We are all winners" mentality

Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

(10-01-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

I don't think he is derailing it. Education is a big concern as to the issues this country faces. We don't have a workforce that is trained to do what is needed to make the US great. We have too many people being told they need to go to college, yet not enough people who can drive a semi truck to get our goods around this nation.

(10-01-2014 02:03 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:44 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:35 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  You want a frank and honest discussion about the USA? Our education system should be better because vague claims of societal decline aren't useful in any meaningful way.

I agree with this, however, how the hell do we improve our education system? We have thrown money at the issue, and that doesn't fix it. I think we need to start separating kids out into tracks, but that isn't PC these days.

I certainly don't have those answers, but this could be a good start.

Several places teachers barely make more than someone pushing buggies at Wal Mart and they're so far in debt with student loans, they usually have to take other jobs to make ends meet.

Our problem stems with how we distribute money through our government. Again I think people serving in state government and even our federal government make too much money. You pay those representing their states the average salary in that state, you'll see change in government. Same with in the state capitals. You pay them all what the average is in their district, you'll weed out several career politicians. Take that money and pay teachers.

Just a thought.

I think it's probably more a problem of administrative costs rising, and taking most of the increased funds that would be better served going to teachers. You see the same rise in a lot of healthcare organizations.

I can't help but think that tying it to local property taxes is a major problem, too, but I don't want to act like i really have a good understanding of this topic bc I really don't.

(10-01-2014 02:06 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

I don't think he is derailing it. Education is a big concern as to the issues this country faces. We don't have a workforce that is trained to do what is needed to make the US great. We have too many people being told they need to go to college, yet not enough people who can drive a semi truck to get our goods around this nation.

It is derailing it, it was started to challenge assumptions we make about ourselves, but so what I guess.

(10-01-2014 02:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:06 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

I don't think he is derailing it. Education is a big concern as to the issues this country faces. We don't have a workforce that is trained to do what is needed to make the US great. We have too many people being told they need to go to college, yet not enough people who can drive a semi truck to get our goods around this nation.

It is derailing it, it was started to challenge assumptions we make about ourselves, but so what I guess.

I guess I thought all honest assessments of what we are doing right or wrong were welcome here.

(10-01-2014 02:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:06 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

I don't think he is derailing it. Education is a big concern as to the issues this country faces. We don't have a workforce that is trained to do what is needed to make the US great. We have too many people being told they need to go to college, yet not enough people who can drive a semi truck to get our goods around this nation.

It is derailing it, it was started to challenge assumptions we make about ourselves, but so what I guess.

I'm challenging the assumptions many of you have about societal decline that aren't based in facts. In most ways, society has improved consistently since the late 80's-early 90's, so why do you think it's so common to believe things are so bad?

(10-01-2014 02:09 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:06 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Come on guys, UCF is derailing this thread. It is about much broader issues.

I don't think he is derailing it. Education is a big concern as to the issues this country faces. We don't have a workforce that is trained to do what is needed to make the US great. We have too many people being told they need to go to college, yet not enough people who can drive a semi truck to get our goods around this nation.

It is derailing it, it was started to challenge assumptions we make about ourselves, but so what I guess.

I guess I thought all honest assessments of what we are doing right or wrong were welcome here.

Sure, but not in a way that it simply becomes an argument about the merit of our approach to something and what would and would not work. It was about taking on assumptions that we all make, us being the best, exceptional, etc.

Oh well though.

(10-01-2014 12:34 PM)gdunn Wrote:  I've never ventured out of the country. I know I've heard a few foreigners I've either socialized with, went to school with, or worked with call us dumb Americans.

I am a white American who grew up overseas, lived there for 12 years, and regularly travel out of the country for business and sometimes even pleasure. My personal anecdotes are opposite yours, outside of the stereotypical Ugly American Tourist maybe found on a booze crooze off Cozumel or some other redonkumoose tourist situation.

Professional Americans overseas are well respected within local professional circles, and American (and Western) expats are traditionally the people who the locals want to work for both in professional and service roles.

Americans in general are pretty well behaved outside of the country. The biggest difficulty American's have overseas is acclimating to the local culture - the learning curve can be steep and some tourists and expats will just say fark it. This could cause a fair bit of local consternation in a Muslim country if your wife goes out unaccompanied, or if I touch a Buddhist on their head in Thailand, or give the OK sign in Argentina.

If you are a relatively educated foreigner, with access to social media and American culture but without the facilities or means to physically travel or interact with Americans, I can see how one's impression of Americans can be pretty stilted.

(10-01-2014 02:04 PM)DragonLair Wrote:  1. the millennial generation is perceived to be lazy
2. society cares more about online social activism than doing something tangible
3. society has a sense of entitlement which stems from "We are all winners" mentality

1. Every new generation is perceived as lazy by it's elders.
2. That online social activism has directly led to tangible social activism, with such asinine time wasters like Twitter and Instagram being heavily used by revolutionaries in oppressive nations.
3. This is again vague to the point of uselessness. I was raised during the period every child got a ribbon, and kids didn't care. The only people I've personally seen proud of participation awards are middle aged women showing off the medal they got for walking a 5k.

Very well written and thoughtful thread!

Just a couple of observations about some of the general thoughts expressed by several here.

Concerning the idea that America is a "once great" or declining nation, while I certainly think there are serious problems in the country today, I try to approach broad observations about the country like those above from the most detached perspective I can. Individuals and groups have been making pronouncements about the decline and the diminishing luster of this country since nearly its inception. These have been made for an infinite variety of reasons, but often it was in response to perceivably insurmountable problems that the country faced or developments that were seen to be representative of a new lack of morality in the nation's people. Does that mean that today's views and problems should not be taken seriously? Certainly not, but it does tend to make me think that today's discourse concerning the "decline" of America is somewhat "par for the course" in history.

Further to that end, generations subsequent to others throughout American have commonly been seen as lacking or inherently different or "failed" compared to those previous. Again, while this is not meant to excuse the faults of any generation (Lord knows every one has plenty), I mean to offer a little perspective on what people think about generations today. I have used this example before, but you can find newspaper editorials in the 20s and 30s decrying the young generation that would eventually become the "Greatest Generation," which as a matter of fact contained murderers, rapists, and thieves, just as any generation has. What I suppose I'm trying to say is that vilifying younger generations seems to me to be a sort of device used by other to shift the blame for societal issues, rather than effectively addressing them.

Really, when it comes down to it, the biggest problem in the USA today and going forward is the crushing debt. That is the problem that everyone should be concerned about.

My feelings are almost lockstep with this talk .... which I've linked to countless times but I venture most haven't bothered to watch it.

http://poptech.org/popcasts/juan_enriquez__poptech_2006



If anybody in this thread has watched that talk ... I'd like to discuss what a future United States looks like from a borders standpoint.

I feel that America's biggest problem is the prevailing mindset many have. I think that mindset can be best described as apathetic at the worst times and overly caring at the worst time possible. We don't care when it comes to our government, but we care immensely about every kid being treated fairly. We don't care when it comes to others around the world and how our actions have a disproportionate effect on them but we do care when a pop star gets in trouble. We don't care about debt, but care about homosexuals in Russia.

It gets back to my point on values and how they tie in with our concept of freedom. At what point does forced inclusiveness and feigned care for fringe issues override our common sense? I mean that in a non political way.

We are all guilty of it, but when I see a person spend their life worshipping pop culture and then turn around and make ethnocentric judgements about other's culture, where the idea that others have different values is completely absent, I question what exactly that is a symptom of. Are people dumb, due to a failing education system? Are people self centered, thanks to the rat race and warped sense of achievement? Or is it something else?

(10-01-2014 02:30 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I feel that America's biggest problem is the prevailing mindset many have. I think that mindset can be best described as apathetic at the worst times and overly caring at the worst time possible. We don't care when it comes to our government, but we care immensely about every kid being treated fairly. We don't care when it comes to others around the world and how our actions have a disproportionate effect on them but we do care when a pop star gets in trouble. We don't care about debt, but care about homosexuals in Russia.

That's a fair point. For many, as long as we are all being treated equally poorly they are happy. For others, as long as their small group isn't being treated poorly (at that time) they are okay with it. Obviously, once their group gets screwed then they get mad but it is already too late.

(10-01-2014 02:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So, I guess the question becomes, in light of your response, what makes you think that we are and are to remain the economic driver when we are not the top exporter, and many other indicators, trade deficit etc, point to decline?

We are not the top exporter of cheap disposable crap, you are right. We would be better economically if we were, yes, but exporting cheap crap means your labor force is paid and treated cheaply. Is that the trade-off I want? Not sure. Our skilled manufacturing base remains top notch and almost irreproachable on the world stage. Quality, engineering and supply chain management is bar none. Energy production is #1. There is a lot of opportunity in this country.

(10-01-2014 02:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  In Africa and other parts of the developing world people are increasingly turning elsewhere over us, especially China.

Africa is one of the areas of the globe where people's opinion of America is relatively positive.



Africans are only turning to China because the American Economy has ignored Africa. I once read an article that I cannot find on hte Gogle that talked about how different Africa would have been if America developed Liberia with a deep water port and a railroad infrastructure that later spread across Africa. It was fascinating and it would have (potentially, of course because it's all hypothetical) changed at minimum Western Africa and perhaps even the entire continent in the positive.

(10-01-2014 02:44 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 02:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  So, I guess the question becomes, in light of your response, what makes you think that we are and are to remain the economic driver when we are not the top exporter, and many other indicators, trade deficit etc, point to decline?

We are not the top exporter of cheap disposable crap, you are right. We would be better economically if we were, yes, but exporting cheap crap means your labor force is paid and treated cheaply. Is that the trade-off I want? Not sure. Our skilled manufacturing base remains top notch and almost irreproachable on the world stage. Quality, engineering and supply chain management is bar none. Energy production is #1. There is a lot of opportunity in this country.

(10-01-2014 02:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  In Africa and other parts of the developing world people are increasingly turning elsewhere over us, especially China.

Africa is one of the areas of the globe where people's opinion of America is relatively positive.



Africans are only turning to China because the American Economy has ignored Africa. I once read an article that I cannot find on hte Gogle that talked about how different Africa would have been if America developed Liberia with a deep water port and a railroad infrastructure that later spread across Africa. It was fascinating and it would have (potentially, of course because it's all hypothetical) changed at minimum Western Africa and perhaps even the entire continent in the positive.

I wouldn't say that is true. The US has invested a lot of money into the continent, especially over the last 20 years. The difference is we do not invest in anything that isn't part of what we need. The Chinese are the ones building roads, hospitals, and railroads.

You can thank the FCPA for all of that.

I say that as a person that does a lot of work in Africa, who largely grew up there, and has family living there.

(10-01-2014 02:22 PM)mlb Wrote:  Really, when it comes down to it, the biggest problem in the USA today and going forward is the crushing debt. That is the problem that everyone should be concerned about.

That is the entitlement attitude. Not by the younger generations, but there are PLENTY of 70 year olds that are just as guilty. I want,..I want it now,...now attitude cannot get any louder or worse. Debt is choice!!

The lack of person responsibility, pay your way and don't whine or cry.