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Separation of Schools and the State.
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Machiavelli Offline
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Post: #1
Separation of Schools and the State.
This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.
09-24-2014 09:15 PM
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Post: #2
RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

What are you referring to?
09-24-2014 09:18 PM
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Machiavelli Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
I've seen this pop up in a variety of threads. One poster keeps repeating that statement. It will never happen and they keep pushing and antagonizing. They are going to wake a sleeping giant.
09-24-2014 09:23 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
I'd much rather see states run education and allow the districts within their state create their curriculums. The problem with education today is that the feds have far too much authority in education.
09-24-2014 09:29 PM
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maximus Offline
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Re: RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:29 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I'd much rather see states run education and allow the districts within their state create their curriculums. The problem with education today is that the feds have far too much authority in education.
States on the fed crack
09-24-2014 09:35 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:35 PM)maximus Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 09:29 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I'd much rather see states run education and allow the districts within their state create their curriculums. The problem with education today is that the feds have far too much authority in education.
States on the fed crack

Sad but true 03-banghead
09-24-2014 09:37 PM
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Post: #7
RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

Caring about students and the nation is a burden conservatives have, and leftists don't.
09-24-2014 10:05 PM
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gobluebigjon Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 10:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

Caring about students and the nation is a burden conservatives have, and leftists don't.

Is this supposed to be serious?
09-24-2014 10:52 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Re: RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:29 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I'd much rather see states run education and allow the districts within their state create their curriculums. The problem with education today is that the feds have far too much authority in education.

That's what segregationist said.

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09-24-2014 10:58 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
It's happening anyways as anybody who can runs away from the ****** public school system. It will be a good day when nobody else has to settle for a public K-12 education.
09-25-2014 12:47 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Re: RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:29 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I'd much rather see states run education and allow the districts within their state create their curriculums. The problem with education today is that the feds have far too much authority in education.

+1

It has worked in the past and it is failing now. My theory is that it is more a product of parents and a failing culture caused by rot. Districts outside of big cities with better socioeconomic and marriage stats tend to still have good scool systems. When I was a kid we had to take a single standardized test per year... the Iowa basic test... and it didn't count.

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09-25-2014 05:03 AM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
Vouchers
09-25-2014 07:32 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 10:52 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 10:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

Caring about students and the nation is a burden conservatives have, and leftists don't.

Is this supposed to be serious?

Demonstrably true.
09-25-2014 07:51 AM
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jh Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A public education is literally in every states constitution.

This is not true. Iowa contains no such requirement. Maine allows, but does not require, the state legislature to force local governments to establish schools at their own expense. New Hampshire is ambiguous. And Vermont allows the legislature to come up with alternatives.
http://www.ecs.org/clearinghouse/17/03/1703.htm
09-25-2014 11:13 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
My question about a voucher system is this: if every parent were given a voucher equal to the current per student cost to attend private schools, would anything change? In other words, let's say the voucher is for $10,000. Wouldn't current $10,000 per year private schools simply up the tuition to $20,000 and pretty much maintain status quo while the new schools spinning off and offering the $10,000 tuition be the same crappy schools that the government system created? You will still have supply and demand. The other thing that scares me about vouchers is that I am sure many cities will only offer them based on income needs so what will happen is the middle class will get screwed and whereas before they needed to come up with $10,000 to send their child to a decent private school and after they will have to come up with substantially more.
09-25-2014 11:26 AM
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gobluebigjon Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-25-2014 07:51 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 10:52 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 10:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

Caring about students and the nation is a burden conservatives have, and leftists don't.

Is this supposed to be serious?

Demonstrably true.

As long as you truly believe it, it must be true.
09-25-2014 11:26 AM
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Post: #17
RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-25-2014 11:26 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  My question about a voucher system is this: if every parent were given a voucher equal to the current per student cost to attend private schools, would anything change? In other words, let's say the voucher is for $10,000. Wouldn't current $10,000 per year private schools simply up the tuition to $20,000 and pretty much maintain status quo while the new schools spinning off and offering the $10,000 tuition be the same crappy schools that the government system created? You will still have supply and demand. The other thing that scares me about vouchers is that I am sure many cities will only offer them based on income needs so what will happen is the middle class will get screwed and whereas before they needed to come up with $10,000 to send their child to a decent private school and after they will have to come up with substantially more.

This model has been demonstrated in numerous situations in the past. I'm sure that SOME extremely elite, wealthy people only would try, but if people would pay $20,000, why are they only charging them $10,000? You say there is still supply and demand, but if the equilibrium point is obviously near $10,000... and not at $20,000. Where is the new supply of people who can afford $20,000 going to come from? Every voucher proposal I've ever seen had some sort of an income cap, and I'm sure this one would as well.

I think the more likely scenario is that some will go to about $13,000... and you'd find that SOME people who get the $10,000 voucher would think it was worth an extra $3,000 to get that education... but more significantly, you'd have a large number of entities decide that they can provide a good education for $10,000 per person and thus competition would actually create a buyer's market for education. You would create a massive new demand for education at $10,000. Just look at higher education. Yes, education has gotten more expensive, but there are also Universities where you can get your degree for about $1,000 per month... far less for SOME degrees. There are thousands of Universities, and many of them are essentially identical in cost... but they are all unique in their focus. The ones that do well have a popular focus. High schools would be the same. Those that provide poor quality education would be forced out, replaced by those that provided better quality. People would be able to vote with their feet rather than having to just take whatever the state deemed them 'worthy' of.

My point is that if people would be willing to spend $20,000 (out of pocket) on education, somebody would open that school and they would already be sending their kids to that school. They wouldn't just pay $20,000 for the same education that they are currently only paying $10,000 for. Yes, some will move up, but by moving up, they will also price themselves out of reach of many of their former students... and someone else will fill that void. Right now, the 'supply' of education for most people is a government run monopoly.
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2014 11:54 AM by Hambone10.)
09-25-2014 11:39 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-25-2014 11:26 AM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  
(09-25-2014 07:51 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 10:52 PM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 10:05 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(09-24-2014 09:15 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  This will never happen. A public education is literally in every states constitution. You righties are getting fired up about something that will literally never be taken away. Can you imagine the firestorm that will erupt with class envy if you really start trying this. This issue is going to come back on you in a big way. This needle will turn.

Caring about students and the nation is a burden conservatives have, and leftists don't.

Is this supposed to be serious?

Demonstrably true.

As long as you truly believe it, it must be true.

You're unfamiliar w/ the word "demonstrably"?
09-25-2014 11:49 AM
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DragonLair Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-25-2014 11:39 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-25-2014 11:26 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  My question about a voucher system is this: if every parent were given a voucher equal to the current per student cost to attend private schools, would anything change? In other words, let's say the voucher is for $10,000. Wouldn't current $10,000 per year private schools simply up the tuition to $20,000 and pretty much maintain status quo while the new schools spinning off and offering the $10,000 tuition be the same crappy schools that the government system created? You will still have supply and demand. The other thing that scares me about vouchers is that I am sure many cities will only offer them based on income needs so what will happen is the middle class will get screwed and whereas before they needed to come up with $10,000 to send their child to a decent private school and after they will have to come up with substantially more.

This model has been demonstrated in numerous situations in the past. I'm sure that SOME extremely elite, wealthy people only would try, but if people would pay $20,000, why are they only charging them $10,000? You say there is still supply and demand, but if the equilibrium point is obviously near $10,000... and not at $20,000. Where is the new supply of people who can afford $20,000 going to come from? Every voucher proposal I've ever seen had some sort of an income cap, and I'm sure this one would as well.

I think the more likely scenario is that some will go to about $13,000... and you'd find that SOME people who get the $10,000 voucher would think it was worth an extra $3,000 to get that education... but more significantly, you'd have a large number of entities decide that they can provide a good education for $10,000 per person and thus competition would actually create a buyer's market for education. You would create a massive new demand for education at $10,000. Just look at higher education. Yes, education has gotten more expensive, but there are also Universities where you can get your degree for about $1,000 per month... far less for SOME degrees. There are thousands of Universities, and many of them are essentially identical in cost... but they are all unique in their focus. The ones that do well have a popular focus. High schools would be the same. Those that provide poor quality education would be forced out, replaced by those that provided better quality. People would be able to vote with their feet rather than having to just take whatever the state deemed them 'worthy' of.

My point is that if people would be willing to spend $20,000 (out of pocket) on education, somebody would open that school and they would already be sending their kids to that school. They wouldn't just pay $20,000 for the same education that they are currently only paying $10,000 for. Yes, some will move up, but by moving up, they will also price themselves out of reach of many of their former students... and someone else will fill that void. Right now, the 'supply' of education for most people is a government run monopoly.

Not only that but it would encourage the school systems to become more efficient and get rid of some bloat and bureaucracy. Without the government funding a majority of it they would actually see what dollars are coming into there school and what is going out.

I think that would be the biggest change to the system.
09-25-2014 11:58 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: Separation of Schools and the State.
(09-25-2014 11:39 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-25-2014 11:26 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  My question about a voucher system is this: if every parent were given a voucher equal to the current per student cost to attend private schools, would anything change? In other words, let's say the voucher is for $10,000. Wouldn't current $10,000 per year private schools simply up the tuition to $20,000 and pretty much maintain status quo while the new schools spinning off and offering the $10,000 tuition be the same crappy schools that the government system created? You will still have supply and demand. The other thing that scares me about vouchers is that I am sure many cities will only offer them based on income needs so what will happen is the middle class will get screwed and whereas before they needed to come up with $10,000 to send their child to a decent private school and after they will have to come up with substantially more.

This model has been demonstrated in numerous situations in the past. I'm sure that SOME extremely elite, wealthy people only would try, but if people would pay $20,000, why are they only charging them $10,000? You say there is still supply and demand, but if the equilibrium point is obviously near $10,000... and not at $20,000. Where is the new supply of people who can afford $20,000 going to come from?

I think the more likely scenario is that some will go to about $13,000... and you'd find that SOME people who get the $10,000 voucher would think it was worth an extra $3,000 to get that education... but more significantly, you'd have a large number of entities decide that they can provide a good education for $10,000 per person and thus competition would actually create a buyer's market for education. Just look at higher education. Yes, education has gotten more expensive, but there are also Universities where you can get your degree for about $1,000 per month... far less for SOME degrees. There are thousands of Universities, and many of them are essentially identical in cost... but they are all unique in their focus. The ones that do well have a popular focus.

My point is that if people would be willing to spend $20,000 (out of pocket) on education, somebody would open that school and they would already be sending their kids to that school. They wouldn't just pay $20,000 for the same education that they are currently only paying $10,000 for. Yes, some will move up, but by moving up, they will also price themselves out of reach of many of their former students... and someone else will fill that void.

Some good points, but if you have that elite school at $10k and now everyone has $10k and wants to attend the school, how do you select who gets the limited slots? There are 2 scenarios: if everyone gets a voucher, the tuition will absolutely go up to $20k. If the vouchers are income based, the demand for the school goes up and perhaps they can can raise the tuition to $13k. In this case, the middle class parents will find a way to make it happen, but they still get screwed. It is also much easier for a low income family to raise $3,000 out of pocket than for a middle income family to raise $13k. The middle income family has more expenses in regards to housing and maintaining a middle-income lifestyle, whatever that is anymore. Bottom line is the elite school, IMO, will always be the elite school and the crappy school will always be the crappy school. The only fair way to do a voucher system is that everyone gets the voucher and in that case, nothing changes other than school administration.
09-25-2014 12:00 PM
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