Quote:Children can be a great source of satisfaction but also stressful. As Jennifer Senior puts it in the title of her excellent book on the topic, being a parent is "all joy and no fun." Quite apart from the daily aggravations from arguing with a belligerent toddler or cleaning up after a messy teenager, I wonder how many people think ahead about what it's going to cost in both time and money.

According to the Department of Agriculture, raising one child from birth to college age cost an average of $241,080 in 2012. That doesn't even include the two really big ticket items. The first is the cost of college and the second is the costs a parent (usually the mother) pays for any foregone earnings.

Let's look at some reasonable estimates of each.

In 2013-14, the average annual tuition at an in-state four-year public college was about $9,000. For a private college, including room and board, the average cost is about $40,000. Using the lower figure but multiplying by four years of college, we need to add $36,000 to the above figure.

Now let's look at the cost of one parent working a little less in order to spend some time at home when the child is young. If that parent would normally earn $45,000 a year and chooses to stay home until the child reaches school age and to then work part-time, we are talking about adding roughly another $800,000 in foregone income.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles...01286.html

Another article discouraging people from being parents.

Having children does not need to break the bank and it’s one of the best things you could ever do, despite all the work. The world is just way too full of selfishness and immaturity.

First of all, the notion that raising children is all work and no fun is absurd. Children are a blessing and a joy. Yes, they’re hard work but let’s not pretend that raising children is a drudgery. The problem with articles like this is that it presents parenting as a dreadful and expensive thing when it is not.

I have a 5 year old and haven’t found it to be that expensive. Granted, we cut back on some frivolous eating out and entertainment spending, but we really don’t spend anymore now than pre-child. In ways, children save you money, depending on your pre-child lifestyle. You are no longer able to eat out very often. Gone are the nights of dropping $200 on dinner and bar hopping. Gone are the weekend Vegas or Atlantic City trips and are replaced by weekend camping trips that'll cost you $50.

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:Children can be a great source of satisfaction but also stressful. As Jennifer Senior puts it in the title of her excellent book on the topic, being a parent is "all joy and no fun." Quite apart from the daily aggravations from arguing with a belligerent toddler or cleaning up after a messy teenager, I wonder how many people think ahead about what it's going to cost in both time and money.

According to the Department of Agriculture, raising one child from birth to college age cost an average of $241,080 in 2012. That doesn't even include the two really big ticket items. The first is the cost of college and the second is the costs a parent (usually the mother) pays for any foregone earnings.

I've said that college has been the biggest burden on the middle class for several decades.

Second, it's a fallacy to claim "foregone earnings" as a cost. Truly a lack of understanding of economics.

(09-23-2014 08:59 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:Children can be a great source of satisfaction but also stressful. As Jennifer Senior puts it in the title of her excellent book on the topic, being a parent is "all joy and no fun." Quite apart from the daily aggravations from arguing with a belligerent toddler or cleaning up after a messy teenager, I wonder how many people think ahead about what it's going to cost in both time and money.

According to the Department of Agriculture, raising one child from birth to college age cost an average of $241,080 in 2012. That doesn't even include the two really big ticket items. The first is the cost of college and the second is the costs a parent (usually the mother) pays for any foregone earnings.

I've said that college has been the biggest burden on the middle class for several decades.

Second, it's a fallacy to claim "foregone earnings" as a cost. Truly a lack of understanding of economics.

College is an option, not a cost. Depending on the young adult, options include making the investment for them, requiring them to make the investment themselves, going the 2-year route, taking a scholarship, working full-time and grinding it out over maybe a 6-year instead of a 4-year haul, etc. I am making no plans and saving no money for it. We will make the decision as a family when it is time depending on his personality, work ethic, and high school achievements. If my son wants to go to college and has not demonstrated high level of success along with developing a detailed plan, he will have to have some skin in the game. If he has, I am sure we will be glad to make some or all of the investment.

I'm pretty sure I cost my parents a lot of money.

me too

(09-23-2014 09:07 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:59 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:Children can be a great source of satisfaction but also stressful. As Jennifer Senior puts it in the title of her excellent book on the topic, being a parent is "all joy and no fun." Quite apart from the daily aggravations from arguing with a belligerent toddler or cleaning up after a messy teenager, I wonder how many people think ahead about what it's going to cost in both time and money.

According to the Department of Agriculture, raising one child from birth to college age cost an average of $241,080 in 2012. That doesn't even include the two really big ticket items. The first is the cost of college and the second is the costs a parent (usually the mother) pays for any foregone earnings.

I've said that college has been the biggest burden on the middle class for several decades.

Second, it's a fallacy to claim "foregone earnings" as a cost. Truly a lack of understanding of economics.

College is an option, not a cost. Depending on the young adult, options include making the investment for them, requiring them to make the investment themselves, going the 2-year route, taking a scholarship, working full-time and grinding it out over maybe a 6-year instead of a 4-year haul, etc. I am making no plans and saving no money for it. We will make the decision as a family when it is time depending on his personality, work ethic, and high school achievements. If my son wants to go to college and has not demonstrated high level of success along with developing a detailed plan, he will have to have some skin in the game. If he has, I am sure we will be glad to make some or all of the investment.

I fully agree. But the story spread by professional educators over the past 50 years is that college is a necessity. mach even repeated this lie a few days ago.

Yet, saving for college has always been a major challenge for the middle class. If any one thing has been responsible for the decline of the middle class, it would be that, b/c the cost to feed the beast has far outpaced inflation and wages.

Just look around today, young people are greatly hindered by their student loan debt: they can't buy houses, they can't buy cars. They in turn are delaying having children. And many of these people had families that saved and helped with college costs (taking a huge toll on their standard of living and the overall economy) but the costs grew so fast that they still needed loans.

A few months ago a local credit union had an ad where a young woman was talking about the child she was expecting. And she wanted the credit union to help her start saving for college...even as she was paying off her student loans. That's accepted as a norm in this country.

Sending young people to college, and having them ill-trained for the marketplace, having them delay earnings and/or delay having children has been a huge negative, both economically and socially.

(09-23-2014 09:33 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 09:07 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:59 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:Children can be a great source of satisfaction but also stressful. As Jennifer Senior puts it in the title of her excellent book on the topic, being a parent is "all joy and no fun." Quite apart from the daily aggravations from arguing with a belligerent toddler or cleaning up after a messy teenager, I wonder how many people think ahead about what it's going to cost in both time and money.

According to the Department of Agriculture, raising one child from birth to college age cost an average of $241,080 in 2012. That doesn't even include the two really big ticket items. The first is the cost of college and the second is the costs a parent (usually the mother) pays for any foregone earnings.

I've said that college has been the biggest burden on the middle class for several decades.

Second, it's a fallacy to claim "foregone earnings" as a cost. Truly a lack of understanding of economics.

College is an option, not a cost. Depending on the young adult, options include making the investment for them, requiring them to make the investment themselves, going the 2-year route, taking a scholarship, working full-time and grinding it out over maybe a 6-year instead of a 4-year haul, etc. I am making no plans and saving no money for it. We will make the decision as a family when it is time depending on his personality, work ethic, and high school achievements. If my son wants to go to college and has not demonstrated high level of success along with developing a detailed plan, he will have to have some skin in the game. If he has, I am sure we will be glad to make some or all of the investment.

I fully agree. But the story spread by professional educators over the past 50 years is that college is a necessity. mach even repeated this lie a few days ago.

Yet, saving for college has always been a major challenge for the middle class. If any one thing has been responsible for the decline of the middle class, it would be that, b/c the cost to feed the beast has far outpaced inflation and wages.

Just look around today, young people are greatly hindered by their student loan debt: they can't buy houses, they can't buy cars. They in turn are delaying having children. And many of these people had families that saved and helped with college costs (taking a huge toll on their standard of living and the overall economy) but the costs grew so fast that they still needed loans.

A few months ago a local credit union had an ad where a young woman was talking about the child she was expecting. And she wanted the credit union to help her start saving for college...even as she was paying off her student loans. That's accepted as a norm in this country.

Sending young people to college, and having them ill-trained for the marketplace, having them delay earnings and/or delay having children has been a huge negative, both economically and socially.

Bingo. College can be a good investment depending on your plans and what you make of it, but I'd say it is not a good investment for about 70% of the people who go. I don't care if my child gets into Harvard, if he plans to major in art history, I'm not paying a dime.

Wow, what a nice idea they have about kids... No wonder liberals support killing babies.

Yes, kids can be expensive. I know, I have two of them. However, it's not like that $280+K price tag is due all at once so that figure is misleading. If folks are financially and emotionally prepared for kids, then I say go for it. We got lucky, boy and girl, so we are done in the kid producting department. Those two kids are the reason I get up every morning. Can't put a price tag on that.

Quote:It will cost an estimated $241,080 for a middle-income couple to raise a child born last year for 18 years, according to a U.S. Department of Agriculture report released Wednesday. That's up almost 3% from 2011 and doesn't even include the cost of college.

The USDA's latest estimates include expenses for housing, food, transportation, clothing, health care, education and child care, as well as miscellaneous expenses, such as toys and computers.

Two "costs" don't really make sense to me.

Housing: If someone would've bought a 3 or 4 bedroom house anyhow (especially with prices so desirable after the 2008 crash) and used it for guest rooms and home offices, there isn't "housing" costs if you simply convert that room to a child's bedroom. It's not like you necessarily have to physically move to a larger home with each kid.

Education: If the measurement is up to 18 years old, this added cost would only occur if you send your kids to private schools.

For toys and some of those clothes... go to Moms2Moms sales. They're huge and the stuff is cheap. Just make sure to wash, clean and disinfect it when you bring it home.

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Another article discouraging people from being parents.

Having children does not need to break the bank and it’s one of the best things you could ever do, despite all the work. The world is just way too full of selfishness and immaturity.

First of all, the notion that raising children is all work and no fun is absurd. Children are a blessing and a joy. Yes, they’re hard work but let’s not pretend that raising children is a drudgery. The problem with articles like this is that it presents parenting as a dreadful and expensive thing when it is not.

I have a 5 year old and haven’t found it to be that expensive. Granted, we cut back on some frivolous eating out and entertainment spending, but we really don’t spend anymore now than pre-child. In ways, children save you money, depending on your pre-child lifestyle. You are no longer able to eat out very often. Gone are the nights of dropping $200 on dinner and bar hopping. Gone are the weekend Vegas or Atlantic City trips and are replaced by weekend camping trips that'll cost you $50.

Love my toddler son more than anything, I'd be a lost soul without him.

It certainly was an adjustment, however. The lifestyle change is definitely something to get accustomed to. It wasn't about spending less money and scaling back on 'frivolous' stuff, that was actually fine for us. I even dealt with the choppy sleep okay. It was the shift from a "free to go/do whatever comes up on a given day" to what felt like being on high alert 24/7 that took some getting used to... and still does.

But almost paradoxically, I couldn't imagine my life without the little guy in my life. I've had some of my greatest smiles and laughs since he was born. Tickling him and hearing him laugh is one of the greatest sounds.

I've also had some of my greatest fears realized... 'bad' things that happen in the news affect me more now than in the past. It's not just me navigating through the murky waters of life, but helping my wife and child through those same waters. Seedy and violent people take on more significance now.

When I read about the GA father who intentionally left his son in the hot car to fry, I was enraged. And I literally wept. It's so much more personal now.

In a nutshell, you realize an upwelling of emotions, of all types, you never knew you had.

(09-23-2014 10:26 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Another article discouraging people from being parents.

Having children does not need to break the bank and it’s one of the best things you could ever do, despite all the work. The world is just way too full of selfishness and immaturity.

First of all, the notion that raising children is all work and no fun is absurd. Children are a blessing and a joy. Yes, they’re hard work but let’s not pretend that raising children is a drudgery. The problem with articles like this is that it presents parenting as a dreadful and expensive thing when it is not.

I have a 5 year old and haven’t found it to be that expensive. Granted, we cut back on some frivolous eating out and entertainment spending, but we really don’t spend anymore now than pre-child. In ways, children save you money, depending on your pre-child lifestyle. You are no longer able to eat out very often. Gone are the nights of dropping $200 on dinner and bar hopping. Gone are the weekend Vegas or Atlantic City trips and are replaced by weekend camping trips that'll cost you $50.

Love my toddler son more than anything, I'd be a lost soul without him.

It certainly was an adjustment, however. The lifestyle change is definitely something to get accustomed to. It wasn't about spending less money and scaling back on 'frivolous' stuff, that was actually fine for us. I even dealt with the choppy sleep okay. It was the shift from a "free to go/do whatever comes up on a given day" to what felt like being on high alert 24/7 that took some getting used to... and still does.

But almost paradoxically, I couldn't imagine my life without the little guy in my life. I've had some of my greatest smiles and laughs since he was born. Tickling him and hearing him laugh is one of the greatest sounds.

I've also had some of my greatest fears realized... 'bad' things that happen in the news affect me more now than in the past. It's not just me navigating through the murky waters of life, but helping my wife and child through those same waters. Seedy and violent people take on more significance now.

When I read about the GA father who intentionally left his son in the hot car to fry, I was enraged. And I literally wept.

In a nutshell, you realize an upwelling of emotions, of all types, you never knew you had.

I agree 100%. When one becomes a parent, life is no longer only about that person, it's about the kid. I go without many of the "things" I could have sans kids, but I do it so I can put some extra $$ in their college accts or sign them up for sports camps, etc. Sometimes when things get hectic I think about life before kids but then my little one comes up to me and says, "Daddy, can you play with me?" and I immediately bounce back and realize just how lucky I am.

(09-23-2014 10:26 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 08:47 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Another article discouraging people from being parents.

Having children does not need to break the bank and it’s one of the best things you could ever do, despite all the work. The world is just way too full of selfishness and immaturity.

First of all, the notion that raising children is all work and no fun is absurd. Children are a blessing and a joy. Yes, they’re hard work but let’s not pretend that raising children is a drudgery. The problem with articles like this is that it presents parenting as a dreadful and expensive thing when it is not.

I have a 5 year old and haven’t found it to be that expensive. Granted, we cut back on some frivolous eating out and entertainment spending, but we really don’t spend anymore now than pre-child. In ways, children save you money, depending on your pre-child lifestyle. You are no longer able to eat out very often. Gone are the nights of dropping $200 on dinner and bar hopping. Gone are the weekend Vegas or Atlantic City trips and are replaced by weekend camping trips that'll cost you $50.

Love my toddler son more than anything, I'd be a lost soul without him.

It certainly was an adjustment, however. The lifestyle change is definitely something to get accustomed to. It wasn't about spending less money and scaling back on 'frivolous' stuff, that was actually fine for us. I even dealt with the choppy sleep okay. It was the shift from a "free to go/do whatever comes up on a given day" to what felt like being on high alert 24/7 that took some getting used to... and still does.

But almost paradoxically, I couldn't imagine my life without the little guy in my life. I've had some of my greatest smiles and laughs since he was born. Tickling him and hearing him laugh is one of the greatest sounds.

I've also had some of my greatest fears realized... 'bad' things that happen in the news affect me more now than in the past. It's not just me navigating through the murky waters of life, but helping my wife and child through those same waters. Seedy and violent people take on more significance now.

When I read about the GA father who intentionally left his son in the hot car to fry, I was enraged. And I literally wept. It's so much more personal now.

In a nutshell, you realize an upwelling of emotions, of all types, you never knew you had.

No doubt, I agree 100%. The "on alert 24/7", mainly ages 2-4, were the toughest. 5 has been a breeze for the most part now that he has been granted some independence, understands/follows rules, and I trust him crossing the street etc. But yeah, the news impact hits you like a brick.

Brilliant. Tell your kids they don't have to go to college and very few of them will.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(09-23-2014 10:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Brilliant. Tell your kids they don't have to go to college and very few of them will.

It's ok, they'll study karate like you did.

If you are pregnant and find your way to deliver you baby on US soil, by overstaying visa or whatever, the US taxpayer will absorb all costs, and more, till the youngin turns 18.

Why is it selfish or immature to not want kids?

(09-23-2014 10:47 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-23-2014 10:44 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Brilliant. Tell your kids they don't have to go to college and very few of them will.

It's ok, they'll study karate like you did.

Kung fu. Get it right.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(09-23-2014 11:04 AM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Why is it selfish or immature to not want kids?

It's not.

Quote:When I read about the GA father who intentionally left his son in the hot car to fry, I was enraged. And I literally wept. It's so much more personal now.

Me too