(09-21-2014 05:20 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  If Skip is such a good coach and had so much talent at USF then why was he 4-16 in his last 20 games and that was with a junior and senior BJ Daniels at QB

That's fine, but you have to also give him credit for going 12-5 before that

...and beating bowl

Miami
Notre Dame
Louisville
Clemson

teams.

It's not like the guy is a John Thompson or Ellis Johnson program killer. I mean you guys treat him like that and he still had some monumental program wins in a short time.

I really don't know what happened to USF/Skip because I didn't follow you guys at all but he completely rebuilt our program from bottom ten to top 40, and he put UConn on the map with things they had never done to that point as a 30 year old.

Maybe you guys just have bigger issues. Even Levitt would win some big games and look ready to take off then he would fall on his face in conference even with the advantages. This new guy isn't doing a lot either. I still believe Skip is a solid coach that will be good for La Tech. You look an most even above average coaches if they are in the buisness long enough have 5-7, 3-9 seasons and a WTF loss. Especially early in their tenure like he is at La Tech.

(09-21-2014 05:29 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:25 PM)pesik Wrote:  oh...and i finally remembered..holtz did have a qb, the NUMBER ONE dual threat qb, who was the crown heir apparent, and would have taken over for bj, Asiantii Woulard ...who de-committed because holtz was fired...

so yeah..im back to 100% certain usf wouldnt lost the fcs is holtz was the coach (again usf would have still been bad, but not losing to fcs bad) and the qb situation was being handled

LOL more ignorance. Woulard de committed BEFORE Holtz was fired, his Dad wanted him at a big school and was shopping him around. He committed again later because the SEC offer didn't pan out when UCLA came calling he left and used the firing as an excuse. But of course you wouldn't know any of that LOL

lol more twisting fact, he didnt use the firinga as an excuse and ucla wasnt even that interested in him when he decomitted...he didnt take an official visit their till a month after holtz was fired..and took like 3 other vistis to other teams hoping theyd offer but they never did..dont twist it like ucla offered and this was his excuse to leave..he had zero saftey nets when he left, tried UK but failed, tried clemson but failed, and finally tried ucla and they accepted him, he'd have almost certainly stayed if holtz was the coach because it was so late in the process

(09-21-2014 05:37 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:20 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  If Skip is such a good coach and had so much talent at USF then why was he 4-16 in his last 20 games and that was with a junior and senior BJ Daniels at QB

That's fine, but you have to also give him credit for going 12-5 before that

...and beating bowl

Miami
Notre Dame
Louisville
Clemson

teams.

It's not like the guy is a John Thompson or Ellis Johnson program killer. I mean you guys treat him like that and he still had some monumental program wins in a short time.

I really don't know what happened to USF/Skip because I didn't follow you guys at all but he completely rebuilt our program from bottom ten to top 40, and he put UConn on the map with things they had never done to that point as a 30 year old.

Maybe you guys just have bigger issues. Even Levitt would win some big games and look ready to take off then he would fall on his face in conference. This new guy isn't doing a lot either. I still believe Skip is a solid coach that will be good for La Tech. You look an most coaches if they are in the buisness long enough have 5-7, 3-9 seasons and a WTF loss. Especially early in their tenure like he is at La Tech.

He did well early on. But who recruited those players. The reality is that as time went on Skip did not follow up in recruiting, nor strengthening the players he had. The fight on the team just dissapeared that's on him.

When you have on campus the biggest recruiting weekend of the year and your HC is in Vegas on a celebrity golf tournament. It leaves a lot of head scratching.

(09-21-2014 05:25 PM)pesik Wrote:  oh...and i finally remembered..holtz did have a qb, the NUMBER ONE dual threat qb, who was the crown heir apparent, and would have taken over for bj, Asiantii Woulard ...who de-committed because holtz was fired...

so yeah..im back to 100% certain usf wouldnt lost the fcs if holtz was the coach (again usf would have still been bad, but not losing to fcs bad) and the qb situation was being handled

Must be tough being an expert diehard fan for two schools....

BTW, Woulard had decommited before Holtz was fired as he wasn't answering the staff's calls. Plus he ha decommitted shortly after committing. BTW, the year before Holtz and staff screwed the recruitment of 4-star Tyler Cameron. The reality of the situation is that QBs saw his system and ran away in droves. Then again, you would know all the behind the scenes recruiting scoop b/c you obviously have multiple USF premium site subscriptions.


Again...what is your point? Let it go....as its making you look the petty, Internet know-it-all.

(09-21-2014 05:39 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:29 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:25 PM)pesik Wrote:  oh...and i finally remembered..holtz did have a qb, the NUMBER ONE dual threat qb, who was the crown heir apparent, and would have taken over for bj, Asiantii Woulard ...who de-committed because holtz was fired...

so yeah..im back to 100% certain usf wouldnt lost the fcs is holtz was the coach (again usf would have still been bad, but not losing to fcs bad) and the qb situation was being handled

LOL more ignorance. Woulard de committed BEFORE Holtz was fired, his Dad wanted him at a big school and was shopping him around. He committed again later because the SEC offer didn't pan out when UCLA came calling he left and used the firing as an excuse. But of course you wouldn't know any of that LOL

lol more twisting fact, he didnt use the firinga as an excuse and ucla wasnt even that interested in him when he decomitted...he didnt take an official visit their till a month after holtz was fired..and took like 3 other vistis to other teams hoping theyd offer but they never did..dont twist it like ucla offered and this was his excuse to leave..he had zero saftey nets when he left, tried UK but failed, tried clemson but failed, and finally tried ucla and they accepted him, he'd have almost certainly stayed if holtz was the coach because it was so late in the process

LOL. Look I'm not arguing this with you any longer. Any one close to the USF program knew full well that Woulard wasn't coming after his first decommits and that his father was shopping for a better school. Believe it or not I don't care but it is the truth.

But whatever dude I'm too old to keep arguing with someone that thinks he knows everything about a school that I have been very close with for almost 40 years. I got to USF in 1976 and have been very close since that time. I'm not wealthy so I'm not an Iron Bull but know enough of them and others in the school to know the pulse at USF Athletics.

I'm not sold on Taggart yet but know that he will be given at least 2 more years to turn the ship around.

So you may continue if you like. I have better things to do.

we'll call it a day

(09-21-2014 05:28 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:20 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  If Skip is such a good coach and had so much talent at USF then why was he 4-16 in his last 20 games and that was with a junior and senior BJ Daniels at QB

the argument was never good coach, the argument was loseing to mcnese and using skip as a crutch for willies mistakes..

skip had to go...he wasnt a good coach at usf but he was never as bad as willie's season last year..

people put too much blame n skip and not enough on Willie

Taggart inherited a poor roster and completely changed the system at USF. To go from Holtz's flex/spread "offense" to a west coast style power O doesn't happen overnight. Again, anyone who watched our program's talent level go down compared Leavitt's days and the lack of buzz on the recruiting trail knew that this was not a quick fix. That quick fix was what Holtz inherited from Leavitt but he was never able to recruit the players he needed for his "system" and was a terrible recruiter that burned bridges all over the talent rich Bay Area with just 6 Tampa Bay Area players signed during his three years at USF.

Btw, nobody is attacking Holtz personally. He is a very nice guy and good family man....but he screed up a great opportunity for himself at USF. Talent rich area, engaged fanbase that had gotten a taste of success at an on the rise university that was played in a BCS conference.

(09-21-2014 05:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  He did well early on. But who recruited those players.

Who coached them ? You go beat an 8 win Notre Dame on their home field and it's not all the recruits nor is that a completely throw away kind of victory like you guys just do.

Quote:The reality is that as time went on Skip did not follow up in recruiting, nor strengthening the players he had. The fight on the team just dissapeared that's on him.

This I don't buy. He was there 3 friggen years. You can't tell me by 2 and 3 years deep he should have been expected to have his recruits in place winning at a large clip. Maybe Levit didn't leave him what you thought.

Maybe you don't get it because he was only your second or 3rd coach but there is #1 a transitional period that comes with any coaching change especially from outside the program where the last guys usually don't mesh with the new leader.

#2 if you are playing Freshman and redshirt freshman and sophmores (recruited in one class with 2 weeks no less) like Skips guys would have been then damn, you are going to be expected to lose anyway. You can blame his recruiting but damn, WTF do you expect him to recruit and suddenly win with underclassmen he recruited and a throw away class no less.

Quote:When you have on campus the biggest recruiting weekend of the year and your HC is in Vegas on a celebrity golf tournament. It leaves a lot of head scratching.

I don't know the details behind this at all other than the fact maybe he already felt he had his class locked up or Skip felt he had to repay some friends. See when he was here he hosted a golf classic with a young man he that had down syndrome he got involved in our program and eventually raised a lot of money for the community and had a special needs center built with the proceeds. He pulled in a lot of known friends over the years to help raise this money and maybe it was a way to pay them back?

Somethings go a little beyond football but Skip's pretty shrewd. I'm sure if he felt he was really hurting the program he would have called in an IOU.

(09-21-2014 05:56 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  He did well early on. But who recruited those players.

Who coached them ? You go beat an 8 win Notre Dame on their home field and it's not all the recruits nor is that a completely throw away kind of victory like you guys just do.

Quote:The reality is that as time went on Skip did not follow up in recruiting, nor strengthening the players he had. The fight on the team just dissapeared that's on him.

This I don't buy. He was there 3 friggen years. You can't tell me by 2 and 3 years deep he should have been expected to have his recruits in place winning at a large clip. Maybe Levit didn't leave him what you thought.

Maybe you don't get it because he was only your second or 3rd coach but there is #1 a transitional period that comes with any coaching change especially from outside the program where the last guys usually don't mesh with the new leader.

#2 if you are playing Freshman and redshirt freshman and sophmores (recruited in one class with 2 weeks no less) like Skips guys would have been then damn, you are going to be expected to lose anyway.

Quote:When you have on campus the biggest recruiting weekend of the year and your HC is in Vegas on a celebrity golf tournament. It leaves a lot of head scratching.

I don't know the details behind this at all other than the fact maybe he already felt he had his class locked up or Skip felt he had to repay some friends. See when he was here he hosted a golf classic with a young man he that had down syndrome he got involved in our program and eventually raised a lot of money for the community and had a special needs center built with the proceeds. He pulled in a lot of known friends over the years to help raise money and maybe it was a way to pay them back? Somethings go a little beyond football but Skips shrewd. I'm sure if he felt he was really hurting the program he would have calling in an IOU.

We will have to agree to disagree. Skip did not do a good job at USF which is why he is no longer there. He left the program worse than he found it. You may agree or disagree that's your call but ask any USF fan and they will tell you the same thing.

(09-21-2014 05:56 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:28 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:20 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  If Skip is such a good coach and had so much talent at USF then why was he 4-16 in his last 20 games and that was with a junior and senior BJ Daniels at QB

the argument was never good coach, the argument was loseing to mcnese and using skip as a crutch for willies mistakes..

skip had to go...he wasnt a good coach at usf but he was never as bad as willie's season last year..

people put too much blame n skip and not enough on Willie

Taggart inherited a poor roster and completely changed the system at USF. To go from Holtz's flex/spread "offense" to a west coast style power O doesn't happen overnight. Again, anyone who watched our program's talent level go down compared Leavitt's days and the lack of buzz on the recruiting trail knew that this was not a quick fix. That quick fix was what Holtz inherited from Leavitt but he was never able to recruit the players he needed for his "system" and was a terrible recruiter that burned bridges all over the talent rich Bay Area with just 6 Tampa Bay Area players signed during his three years at USF.

Btw, nobody is attacking Holtz personally. He is a very nice guy and good family man....but he screed up a great opportunity for himself at USF. Talent rich area, engaged fanbase that had gotten a taste of success at an on the rise university that was played in a BCS conference.

like i said i can completely understand the "didnt have the talent for my style of play argument" outside of mcnesse last season was excusable, i never expected usf to be a great year one but was expecting a 7-8 win team year 2...its year 2 and the team honestly isnt that much better..

the clock is honestly ticking on CWT

(09-21-2014 05:56 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:40 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  He did well early on. But who recruited those players.

Who coached them ? You go beat an 8 win Notre Dame on their home field and it's not all the recruits nor is that a completely throw away kind of victory like you guys just do.

Quote:The reality is that as time went on Skip did not follow up in recruiting, nor strengthening the players he had. The fight on the team just dissapeared that's on him.

This I don't buy. He was there 3 friggen years. You can't tell me by 2 and 3 years deep he should have been expected to have his recruits in place winning at a large clip. Maybe Levit didn't leave him what you thought.

Maybe you don't get it because he was only your second or 3rd coach but there is #1 a transitional period that comes with any coaching change especially from outside the program where the last guys usually don't mesh with the new leader.

#2 if you are playing Freshman and redshirt freshman and sophmores (recruited in one class with 2 weeks no less) like Skips guys would have been then damn, you are going to be expected to lose anyway.

Quote:When you have on campus the biggest recruiting weekend of the year and your HC is in Vegas on a celebrity golf tournament. It leaves a lot of head scratching.

I don't know the details behind this at all other than the fact maybe he already felt he had his class locked up or Skip felt he had to repay some friends. See when he was here he hosted a golf classic with a young man he that had down syndrome he got involved in our program and eventually raised a lot of money for the community and had a special needs center built with the proceeds. He pulled in a lot of known friends over the years to help raise money and maybe it was a way to pay them back? Somethings go a little beyond football but Skips shrewd. I'm sure if he felt he was really hurting the program he would have calling in an IOU.

The recruiting situation Cuban was referring to was our annual Sling&Shoot which regularly considered one of the best 7-on-7 tournaments in tepee country b/c how it's run, number of teams and unreal talent level,that shows up to this event every year. Holtz decided to play golf in a televise pro-am in California ...pebble beach if I recall....than stay home to evaluate and recruit. It was made worse when she marquee recruits with legit interest in USF from The Miami area who made it be known the ought their coaches and Twitter how with comments like " I'm sure Holtz had better things to do..." This did nothing to dispel the perception of Holtz's country club approach to,running what used to be a blue collar football program...and didn't sit well with locals.

(09-21-2014 06:02 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:56 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:28 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(09-21-2014 05:20 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  If Skip is such a good coach and had so much talent at USF then why was he 4-16 in his last 20 games and that was with a junior and senior BJ Daniels at QB

the argument was never good coach, the argument was loseing to mcnese and using skip as a crutch for willies mistakes..

skip had to go...he wasnt a good coach at usf but he was never as bad as willie's season last year..

people put too much blame n skip and not enough on Willie

Taggart inherited a poor roster and completely changed the system at USF. To go from Holtz's flex/spread "offense" to a west coast style power O doesn't happen overnight. Again, anyone who watched our program's talent level go down compared Leavitt's days and the lack of buzz on the recruiting trail knew that this was not a quick fix. That quick fix was what Holtz inherited from Leavitt but he was never able to recruit the players he needed for his "system" and was a terrible recruiter that burned bridges all over the talent rich Bay Area with just 6 Tampa Bay Area players signed during his three years at USF.

Btw, nobody is attacking Holtz personally. He is a very nice guy and good family man....but he screed up a great opportunity for himself at USF. Talent rich area, engaged fanbase that had gotten a taste of success at an on the rise university that was played in a BCS conference.

like i said i can completely understand the "didnt have the talent for my style of play argument" outside of mcnesse last season was excusable, i never expected usf to be a great year one but was expecting a 7-8 win team year 2...its year 2 and the team honestly isnt that much better..

the clock is honestly ticking on CWT

LOL...the clock is ticking for everyone. If you don't perform you get fired....however it's Way Too Early to determine Taggart's fate. Despite the the lackluster start....I can see a big difference in this program under his direction and when his kids start to get it....and his coaches figure out what exactly they have ...this program will be the dangerous giant killer of just a few years ago.

(09-21-2014 06:01 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  We will have to agree to disagree. Skip did not do a good job at USF which is why he is no longer there. He left the program worse than he found it. You may agree or disagree that's your call but ask any USF fan and they will tell you the same thing.

We'll it's not like Levitt had ever had a losing streak or had a 4 win season . Personally from the outside I think you have an impatient fanbase that didn't give the guy a heck of a lot of time. He essentially got fired for a season and a half games even after he had had some wins programs dream of in the first year and a half.

I certainly can't imagine Skip in year five had he had time to build it the way he wanted getting worked by mediocre NC State like you guys just did last week. No chance. He may have never challenged for top 20/ BCS type bowls but I do think he would have had 8 win type seasons and you wouldn't be a 4 win after thought like you are now.

BTW, recruiting rankings are nice but they are usually a joke at this level for many reasons...players are not a finished product in the weight room, only 13 games and 50 plays to scout, thousands of players, etc.

The senior class he recruited here his first year that won 33 games in 4 years coming off a 3-20 span prior, and beat Virgina Tech, Boise, West Virginia, ranked Houston, Tulsa, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia etc didn't have a single 3 star player in it. None. It produced plenty of NFL talent.

Skip was one of the best at recruiting under the radar talent and many guys like Joseph, Ross, Wilson, Hudgins, Lewis, Allison, Davis, Harris etc went on to the NFL. He developed Chris Johnson as well from a 2 star nothing his first three years to what he was from there on out. You can talk all the crap you want about his classes but maybe you didn't give him the time to develop them. Heck even I ate crow on Chris Johnson and what he eventually became under Skip from his Sr year.

(09-21-2014 06:26 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  BTW, recruiting rankings are nice but they are usually a joke at this level for many reasons...players are not a finished product in the weight room, only 13 games and 50 plays to scout, thousands of players, etc.

The senior class he recruited here his first year that won 33 games and beat Virgina Tech, Boise, West Virginia, ranked Houston, Tulsa, NC State, North Carolina, Virginia etc didn't have a single 3 star player in it. None. It produced plenty of NFL talent.

Skip was one of the best at recruiting under the radar talent and many guys like Joseph, Ross, Wilson, Hudgins, Lewis, Allison, Davis, Harris etc went on to the NFL. He developed Chris Johnson as well from a 2 star nothing his first three years to what he was from there on out. You can talk all the crap you want about his classes but maybe you didn't give him the time to develop them.

We will have to agree to disagree

Lance Lewis was not a Skip recruit to ECU...he was brought in as a last minute JUCO pickup after Ruff was hired.

Chris Johnson was also not a Holtz recruit...and Skip would only give him 15 touches or so a game some games...

Ross and Wilson were ENC kids that developed...typical of ECU...under any coach.

I'll give him credit for Harris, Allison and Joseph.

Keep in mind that Skip had a different DC at ECU than USF...many ECU fans credited the DC with developing the kids.

And Skip's 2009 class of recruits (his last yr at ECU) was probably the worst class of recruits in the entire decade.

(09-21-2014 06:29 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  We will have to agree to disagree

Yeah, well you see what consistently high recruiting rankings did for UNC last year or this weekend when our walk ons like Hardy and 2 stars with no offers like Carden did.

UNC recruiting per Rivals...

2010 #29
2011 #16
2012 #44
2013 #42
2014 #23

2010 and 2011 as redshirt Jr's and Sr's

Recruiting rankings are a sham unless you are Bama getting the handful of 6-5, 300lb finished product 17 year olds. If that's what you are basing success on good luck is all I got to say. Skip had already proven great at finding under the rock players and developing them over time.

(09-21-2014 06:41 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  Lance Lewis was not a Skip recruit to ECU...he was brought in as a last minute JUCO pickup after Ruff was hired.

Donnie Kirkpatrick. Skip left the exact same recruiting coordinator he had brought here for Ruff thankfully, and had been on Lewis really since high school while Skip was here. Yeah we got him out of JUCO but the only players in that class Ruff really landed without committing to the last staff or with their aid were Carden and Hardy. Not do shabby last minute add on's I'll say but it was still a solid class or makings of it left by Skip that included the ground work on guys like Davis and Lewis.

Quote:Chris Johnson was also not a Holtz recruit...and Skip would only give him 15 touches or so a game some games...

....and he was hell a raw and pretty much only deserved that many his first 3 years. Don't even pretend he was the beast he turned into his senior year under Skip his first few years.

Quote:Ross and and Wilson were ENC kids that developed...typical of ECU...under any coach.

You put 80lbs of muscle and turn a recruited no star/no offer RB into an on a guy like Wilson and make him a DL and send him off to the NFL you deserve some credit.

Quote:I'll give him credit for Harris, Allison and Joseph.

There were a lot more solid players as well.

Quote:Keep in mind that Skip had a different DC at ECU than USF...many ECU fans credited the DC with developing the kids.

He also had Rick Smith who many fans now call the brains behind our old Holtz defensive schemes and who Hudson himself gives credit for being his primary mentor.

Quote:And Skip's 2009 class of recruits (his last yr at ECU) was probably the worst class of recruits in the entire decade.

I think his last class was really mostly Ruff's first class, but even 2009 had Justin Jones, Michael Brooks, Will Simmons, Tutor, Dobson, Wiggins, Givoni Ruffin, Pasut, Milner, Hunt, Ty Holmes, Jimmy Booth. There were a lot of guys that made positive impacts on the field even on 8 and 10 win teams the last couple years as upper classmen. It wasn't all bad. That was actually a very nice foundation.

Looking at that last class that had already commited to Skip/ECU before he left.

Terry Williams
Maggazu
Pegues
C. Rose
Hudson
Falls
Ivey
Helms
Grove
Gentry
Geary
D. Allen
Richardson
D. Davis

Lot of guys still on the field and 2 deep contributing to this success today and or contributing a lot to the last two years and 18 wins. Of course Ruff kept them coming here in the end from straying but Skip's impact on the program is still being felt even today with guys like Terry Williams, Falls, Rose, and Hudson all key important pieces on a top 25 team along the lines even and toughest positions to recruit. Heck Terry Williams plays in the SC game and who knows, maybe we stop their rush and win it too. He's an impact player at the toughest position on the field to get.

(09-20-2014 11:36 PM)PGPirate Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 11:15 PM)nobledictator1278 Wrote:  I was so angry and disappointed when Skip left us like he did for USF at the time. I am so thankful now that he did. It is nice to feel that your coach isn't looking at every opportunity to leave that comes his way. With that said I'm still glad for what Skip did for our program.... but I will always have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to him.

It took a lot to get us out of that dumpster fire of that coach before him. If he didn't set the new foundation, we wouldn't be where we are now.

I agree. Always grateful to him for 2 CUSA titles and rescuing us from the toilet. Didn't like the way he left, but not gonna be bitter. He left Ruff with little talent, but Ruff just makes the best of every situation.