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Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
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green Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
to hell with an impractical on-campus stadium ...
how 'bout the practicality of building an indoor practice facility ...
it storms here practically daily during the hot, humid, hazy summer ...
most assuredly cutting into practice time ...
as dabo says ...
if U ain't practicing, U ain't getting better ...
and U wonder why ...

GIMME SHELTER
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2014 01:21 PM by green.)
09-30-2014 01:26 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 12:55 PM)green Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  I can understand the want of Miami to have a new stadium since they play so far away from not only campus (21mls) but the population center





The Miami metropolitan area includes Miami and nearby communities. The U.S. Office of Management and Budget designates the area the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) used for statistical purposes by the United States Census Bureau and other entities. The OMB defines the MSA as comprising Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties—Florida's three most populous counties—

With 5,564,635 inhabitants as of the 2010 Census, the Miami metropolitan area is the most populous in Florida and in the Southeastern United States and the eighth-most populous in the United States.
-- wiki

sun life sits smack dab in the middle of 3 populous counties ...
with undergrad enrollment less than 10,000 ...
small, private U must rely on more than itself ...

COMMUNITY OUTREACH

There are many metro areas that are made up of more than one city. However nearly all of them place their major sports facilities in the population center, i.e. downtown area, of the largest city. they don't place them in between them.

to each their own. The point was when you see how much attendance dropped from the Orange Bowl to playing in Sun Life, I am saying I can understand the sentiment for wanting something closer. Pittsburgh I don't.
09-30-2014 02:35 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 09:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Paco,

If Pitt had tried to rehab the old stadium (unlikely to be sure) would the Panthers have just teamed up with the Penguins on the Consol Energy Center?

No.

Pitt had a "Convocation Center" on the drawing board since the 1980s to supplant 6,798 seat Fitzgerald Field House built in 1951. By 1992, a stimulus project had allocated state funds for three arenas across the Commonwealth: what ended up being the Bryce Jordan at PSU, the Liacouras Center at Temple, and a proposed Convocation Center at Pitt. $30 million in state funding authorized for Pitt's arena. The money was there...as you know, if you don't take state appropriations, you lose them, so there was no chance of Pitt not building an arena of some sorts.

Here's the scoop of what happened in detail, it's a bit complicated...

In the 90s Pitt had terrible fundraising, and had recently failed to raise enough for a proposed $90 million renovation of Pitt Stadium that would have domed it and housed both basketball and football ala the Carrier Dome. So in order to attempt to jump start the Convocation Center project, the then incompetent administration at Pitt cut a deal to take less money, $13 million up front, on the condition that no additional state funds would be requested. Pitt was therefore on the hook to fundraise the difference for what was then estimated at a $35 million project, although that estimate was realistically too low. Almost laughably, Pitt still was unable to fundraise even that difference. In addition, Pitt had rolled $7+ million more state money into the project by including a much needed central chilled-water plant (to also serve nearby buildings) within the arena. The combined project languished in no mans land while Pitt sat on $20 million in state funding because it couldn't get the project off the ground. That Pitt Chancellor (who by the way came by way of UNC) was essentially fired, and the Convocation Center debacle is seen as one the largest of his many blunders.

Enter our Chancellor (that just retired this July) in 1995...during one of the low points of morale for the university both athletically and in just generally overall. By 1998, the estimate for the Convocation Center project was up to $65 million, with Pitt now on the hook for $45 million of it.

Pitt had desperately needed some sort of convocation center. As I mentioned, it went 30+ years without even being able to hold commencement exercises on campus. It needed an indoor facility to hold events other than athletics as well. Its existing sports facilities were terribly outdated and completely overcrowded...basketball and every olympic sport except swimming was crammed into the old Fitzgerald Field House...and little had been done to improve any of the facilities, literally, in decades...really since they had been built.

Around this time in the later 1990s, plans were floating around for new stadiums for the Steelers and Pirates in order to get them out of Three Rivers Stadium, which was a horrible multipurpose cookie cutter stadium. The Pirates were on the verge of leaving town. The Steelers were looking to move to the suburbs. The state again had allocated funds for new professional stadiums in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. The first plan to pay for the two new stadiums in Pittsburgh, plus a new convention center for the city, was with a publicly funded half-cent increase on local sales tax. The plan caused outraged and failed miserably in a referendum. Politicians and community leaders scrambled to save the projects (and state allocations). What they came up with was called "Plan B" that instead circumnavigated referendum by using funding from the Regional Asset District that itself was funded by city and county sales tax. Of course, this took deft political maneuvering at both the local and state level. This is where Pitt was brought in, because at the same time the new Chancellor was trying to fix the blunders of his predecessor and get the long-stalled Convocation Center project off the ground by attempting to get more money from the state even though the prior administration pledged not to ask for more.

Keep in mind the setting: Pitt Stadium was in terrible shape. The football team had actually already made plans to move its center of operations across the river to the new practice facility being built for it and the Steelers by the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. The remainder of Pitt's athletic facilities were laughable for even MAC level division 1, and were terrible overcrowded. Intramural facilities were also antiquated. Pitt was struggling to fundraise for even small projects, and was having trouble filling its beds. Land in Oakland is beyond scarce and the university is physically landlocked between residential neighborhoods to the south and north and other institutions to east and west. Fiscally, the university was a sort of a mess and the athletic department an outright disaster.

The political deal that Pitt was able to work itself into by jumping on board with Plan B was a commitment to play at Heinz and thus providing more permanent events dates for the stadium and thus more justification for public funding for the entire Plan B project. In exchange for playing ball with Plan B, it got the state to release additional funds for the Convocation Center project, particularly the original amount that had been allocated 8 or more years prior. Because the university was no longer was going to use Pitt Stadium for game days and had already abandoned it for practice and day-to-day operations, the decision was made to move the Convocation Center site from the problematic hillside location to the footprint of the stadium. This allowed to the scope of the project to double, including more offices, a food court, and importantly, a new student rec center. It also created a new quad and provided much needed space for the construction of desperately needed dorms that were literally 30 years behind schedule.

Thus Plan B was eventually approved and Heinz Field was constructed as a home for both the Steelers and Pitt, which is why the infrastructure has permanent Pitt signage cut into the steel and molded into the seats, etc. Pitt Stadium was torn down, and the state ended up taking over Pitt's Convocation Center project, which now included not just an arena, but also the chilled water plant, the student rec center, and expanded athletic offices and food courts. Pitt ended up with a $119 million dollar arena project, that is obviously now called the Petersen Events Center, with public funding rising from the previous $20 million to about $67 million. It contained multiple, much-needed projects, and today it is actually a facility that is used every day of the year by students and hosts major commercial and university events all year round. Moving the basketball teams out of Fitzgerald Field House freed up copious space that allowed for a complete renovation that re-dedicated the facility to Olympic sports, and allowed the university to move forward with renovations of wrestling, gymnastics, and swimming facilities, and eventually, construction of the soccer/softball/baseball complex.

By getting a pro-football quality stadium for free, its football practice facilities for free (built by UPMC), and more than tripling the amount state funding for the arena projects and knocking them all out at once, it freed Pitt up to renovate the other athletic facilities and move ahead on other projects. The Plan B deal was an opportunity with a short window. If Pitt had decided to not work that deal to its best interests, it could still be trying to fund raise for Pitt Stadium renovations, and instead of having what is regarded as one of the nicest on-campus arenas in the country that undoubtedly helped jump start its basketball program, it might by now have one that was instead merely adequate (if that). But realistically, I really don't think Pitt would be in the ACC right now if it hadn't moved on the athletic facilities overhaul when it did by jumping on bard with Plan B to get the various projects underway.
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2014 11:57 AM by CrazyPaco.)
09-30-2014 04:29 PM
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Ole Blue Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 02:35 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 12:55 PM)green Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 10:43 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  I can understand the want of Miami to have a new stadium since they play so far away from not only campus (21mls) but the population center





The Miami metropolitan area includes Miami and nearby communities. The U.S. Office of Management and Budget designates the area the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) used for statistical purposes by the United States Census Bureau and other entities. The OMB defines the MSA as comprising Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties—Florida's three most populous counties—

With 5,564,635 inhabitants as of the 2010 Census, the Miami metropolitan area is the most populous in Florida and in the Southeastern United States and the eighth-most populous in the United States.
-- wiki

sun life sits smack dab in the middle of 3 populous counties ...
with undergrad enrollment less than 10,000 ...
small, private U must rely on more than itself ...

COMMUNITY OUTREACH

There are many metro areas that are made up of more than one city. However nearly all of them place their major sports facilities in the population center, i.e. downtown area, of the largest city. they don't place them in between them.

to each their own. The point was when you see how much attendance dropped from the Orange Bowl to playing in Sun Life, I am saying I can understand the sentiment for wanting something closer. Pittsburgh I don't.

I think it's clear that having it closer would be a big help. But we've kinda accepted that will not happen. 03-hissyfit
09-30-2014 10:21 PM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-29-2014 02:44 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(09-28-2014 08:21 PM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  Oakland to the North Shore can be a 10 minute drive up to 45 minutes... Really depends on traffic and the route one takes.

I actually drove from Pitt's campus to Heinz for the first two home games (something I don't typically do). Leaving around two hours prior to the kick, it took me less than 10 minutes to get to Heinz (where my car was next to the stadium) and probably 15 mins total to get parked in my Red lot spot and start unloading the beer coolers from my trunk.

It certainly helps to know the best routes. But unless you are going at rush hour, which would never happen...well maybe for a Thursday night game...I can't see it taking 45 mins. In rush hour, I'm probably not going down the Blvd where you'd get tied up in traffic trying to get over to the tunnels. Instead I'd likely leave campus from the north, go down Polish Hill, up Liberty in the strip and over the McCullough Bridge, down East Ohio St, and around the Commons.

For me to get home, I must take Forbes, down to the Blvd/Allies, down to the Parkway... It took me 45 minues to get to Grant once, and another 45 minutes to finally get to the tubes... Once I reached the far side of the tubes it took me 25 minutes to get home down by Tanger Outlets... 03-banghead
09-30-2014 11:17 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 04:29 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 09:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Paco,

If Pitt had tried to rehab the old stadium (unlikely to be sure) would the Panthers have just teamed up with the Penguins on the Consol Energy Center?

No.

Pitt had a "Convocation Center" on the drawing board since the 1980s to supplant 6,798 seat Fitzgerald Field House built in 1951. By 1992, a stimulus project had allocated state funds for three arenas across the Commonwealth: what ended up being the Bryce Jordan at PSU, the Liacouras Center at Temple, and a proposed Convocation Center at Pitt. $30 million in state funding authorized for Pitt's arena. The money was there...as you know, if you don't take state appropriations, you lose them, so there was no chance of Pitt not building an arena of some sorts.

Here's the scoop of what happened in detail, it's a bit complicated...

snip

Thanks for the lesson Paco. I knew of the 4 stadium deal the Commonwealth had in place for the four PA pro sports teams, but was unaware that Pitt received such a windfall from Plan B. I think you story highlights some of the constraints that urban universities face and that working with what is available is sometimes more prudent than trying to emulate the college town atmosphere. The leverage isn't always there.
10-01-2014 07:07 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 10:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  I think it's clear that having it closer would be a big help. But we've kinda accepted that will not happen. 03-hissyfit


That was what I meant. I was not advocating for new one in Miami -I personally think teams in close proximity should share stadiums. I used to work for a company that owned a stadium, and they are serious money losers - I just said I can understand the want for one closer. I don't understand why anyone thinks Pitt with a downtown immaculate stadium, needs one of their own just to say it is on campus?
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2014 11:27 AM by adcorbett.)
10-01-2014 10:03 AM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-01-2014 10:03 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 10:21 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  I think it's clear that having it closer would be a big help. But we've kinda accepted that will not happen. 03-hissyfit


That was what I meant. I was not advocating for new one in Miami -I personally think teams in close proximity should share stadiums. I used to work for a company that owned a stadium, and they are serious money losers - I just said I can understand the want for one closer. I don't understand why anyone thinks Pitt with a downtown immaculate stadium, needs one of their own just to say I tis on campus?

Which, to reference another thread, is why the ambitions of Temple to build a football stadium on their small, landlocked campus is among the stupidest ideas I've heard in a long time, particularly considering other issues at Temple involving finances and general space utilization.

And you nailed the essential crux of it. People, including a segment of Pitt fans who are essentially beholden to a nostalgia to Pitt Stadium (a notion that I absolutely understand), essentially just want to be able to say it is "on-campus" or singularly "Pitt's" because of envy over other schools having that (because most schools aren't urban and that is all anyone else knows and therefore expects) even though Heinz Field is actually nicer than 90% of college football facilities and Pitt freely benefits from continual upgrades and has essentially $0 overhead. There is little real justification for two large football stadiums in a single metropolitan area the size of Pittsburgh that are <4 miles apart, especially if a university has to go into $100s of million in debt to do it (that is, if there was even land available). People forget that for a good chunk of its history, Pitt Stadium was the largest venue in Pittsburgh and hosted not just Pitt, but also the Steelers and the Pittsburgh Civic Light Opera, among other major city civic events (and for a time, all of Pitt's sports including basketball). It was viable when it was the premier stadium facility in the city, and all of that was lost after Three Rivers Stadium was built (and had actually been under consideration for demolition since the 60s.)
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2014 09:40 PM by CrazyPaco.)
10-01-2014 12:15 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-01-2014 07:07 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 04:29 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(09-30-2014 09:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Paco,

If Pitt had tried to rehab the old stadium (unlikely to be sure) would the Panthers have just teamed up with the Penguins on the Consol Energy Center?

No.

Pitt had a "Convocation Center" on the drawing board since the 1980s to supplant 6,798 seat Fitzgerald Field House built in 1951. By 1992, a stimulus project had allocated state funds for three arenas across the Commonwealth: what ended up being the Bryce Jordan at PSU, the Liacouras Center at Temple, and a proposed Convocation Center at Pitt. $30 million in state funding authorized for Pitt's arena. The money was there...as you know, if you don't take state appropriations, you lose them, so there was no chance of Pitt not building an arena of some sorts.

Here's the scoop of what happened in detail, it's a bit complicated...

snip

Thanks for the lesson Paco. I knew of the 4 stadium deal the Commonwealth had in place for the four PA pro sports teams, but was unaware that Pitt received such a windfall from Plan B. I think you story highlights some of the constraints that urban universities face and that working with what is available is sometimes more prudent than trying to emulate the college town atmosphere. The leverage isn't always there.

Just to be clear, the Pete wasn't directly part of plan B (Heinz, PNC, Pittsburgh Convention Center) but signing up for Heinz greased the political wheels in Harrisburg to the point where the arena project actually got off the ground. The combined four major projects was a lot infrastructure being built in the early 2000s in the city, and it was a huge boost for the area and all the participants. It really helped to jumpstart a lot of the recovery that followed, and now Pittsburgh is one of the country's hottest cities (one of the nation's highest office occupancy rates, ranked as one of the top real estate investment areas in the world, redevelopment everywhere in the core, new downtown housing filled as fast as it is being built, new skyscrapers being constructed for the first time in over 30 years). I can't imagine what might have happened if the Pirates had left, the Steelers had moved to the suburbs, the convention center was never built, Pitt was stuck in the American (I can't imagine how poor attendance would be in that scenario), and a decaying Three Rivers Stadium sat mostly empty on the North Side without any of the major surrounding developments which have sprung up around it. Not getting Plan B done would have been an absolute disaster, and I can honestly say that opponents to Plan B (or even A) at the time (and there were many) couldn't have been more wrong.
(This post was last modified: 10-01-2014 12:41 PM by CrazyPaco.)
10-01-2014 12:27 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-01-2014 12:15 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Which, to reference another thread, is why the ambitions of Temple to build a football stadium on their small, landlocked campus is among the stupidest ideas I've heard in a long time, particularly considering other issues at Temple involving finances and general space utilization.

Say it all you want, but it's going to happen. Sucks for Pitt 02-13-banana
10-01-2014 05:30 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-01-2014 05:30 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(10-01-2014 12:15 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  Which, to reference another thread, is why the ambitions of Temple to build a football stadium on their small, landlocked campus is among the stupidest ideas I've heard in a long time, particularly considering other issues at Temple involving finances and general space utilization.

Say it all you want, but it's going to happen. Sucks for Pitt 02-13-banana

Doesn't impact Pitt one bit.

You are delusional.
10-01-2014 06:17 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
How am I delusional?
10-01-2014 09:10 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(09-30-2014 09:41 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  Paco,

If Pitt had tried to rehab the old stadium (unlikely to be sure) would the Panthers have just teamed up with the Penguins on the Consol Energy Center?

Yes, and that is exactly what they should have done. However, that would've been a more expensive solution for PITT, which is why it did not happen.
10-04-2014 04:19 PM
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Fburghokie Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
Question: Yeah money was great for short term, balanced the budget, however, how does moving to SUn Life match with the long term strategic plan for Miami athletics. It looks like the abandoned any connection to the campus, bringing alumni back and all the interconnectivity with the campus to make sure they were not in the red…..

Hey, just a different philosophy


(09-29-2014 01:25 PM)green Wrote:  



The renovation would add more seats closer to the field while removing upper-level seats, bringing the stadium’s current capacity of about 76,000 down to 65,000

Most of the construction to Sun Life Stadium will occur in the 2015 and 2016 offseasons. Game-goers this fall will notice no real changes, but a year from now, the entire bowl will be replaced, with the old seats gone. Then in the spring and summer of 2016, the canopy will come on and new scoreboards will come in.

“When we get done, it’s going to be tantamount to a new stadium,” owner Stephen Ross said.
-- Miami Herald

U got paid an extra $5M a year to move uptown ...
momma didn't raise no dummy ...
opulence on someone else's dime ...

SUGAR BABY
10-05-2014 10:28 AM
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green Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-05-2014 10:28 AM)Fburghokie Wrote:  Question: Yeah money was great for short term, balanced the budget, however, how does moving to SUn Life match with the long term strategic plan for Miami athletics. It looks like the abandoned any connection to the campus, bringing alumni back and all the interconnectivity with the campus to make sure they were not in the red…..

Hey, just a different philosophy


(09-29-2014 01:25 PM)green Wrote:  



The renovation would add more seats closer to the field while removing upper-level seats, bringing the stadium’s current capacity of about 76,000 down to 65,000

Most of the construction to Sun Life Stadium will occur in the 2015 and 2016 offseasons. Game-goers this fall will notice no real changes, but a year from now, the entire bowl will be replaced, with the old seats gone. Then in the spring and summer of 2016, the canopy will come on and new scoreboards will come in.

“When we get done, it’s going to be tantamount to a new stadium,” owner Stephen Ross said.
-- Miami Herald

U got paid an extra $5M a year to move uptown ...
momma didn't raise no dummy ...
opulence on someone else's dime ...

SUGAR BABY

http://citybeautiful.com/

[Image: 12.jpg]

not enough land, access or students to justify the prohibitive cost of an on-campus eyesore ...

NIMBY (NOT IN MY BACKYARD)
10-05-2014 01:46 PM
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green Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-05-2014 10:28 AM)Fburghokie Wrote:  Question: Yeah money was great for short term, balanced the budget, however, how does moving to SUn Life match with the long term strategic plan for Miami athletics. It looks like the abandoned any connection to the campus, bringing alumni back and all the interconnectivity with the campus to make sure they were not in the red…..

Hey, just a different philosophy


(09-29-2014 01:25 PM)green Wrote:  



The renovation would add more seats closer to the field while removing upper-level seats, bringing the stadium’s current capacity of about 76,000 down to 65,000

Most of the construction to Sun Life Stadium will occur in the 2015 and 2016 offseasons. Game-goers this fall will notice no real changes, but a year from now, the entire bowl will be replaced, with the old seats gone. Then in the spring and summer of 2016, the canopy will come on and new scoreboards will come in.

“When we get done, it’s going to be tantamount to a new stadium,” owner Stephen Ross said.
-- Miami Herald

U got paid an extra $5M a year to move uptown ...
momma didn't raise no dummy ...
opulence on someone else's dime ...

SUGAR BABY

[Image: 6.jpg]

nostalgia don't pay the bills ...

SOME MERCHANTS WON'T TAKE AMERICAN EXPRESS
10-05-2014 01:59 PM
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Ole Blue Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
Yeah, the city of Coral Gables has thrown a hissy fit every time we've even started to talk about an on-campus or nearer-to-campus stadium...

03-banghead
10-05-2014 02:13 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
Personally I have always thought "on campus" works for rural campuses. If you are in a major metropolitan area, you need to be in the best spot to get into and out of, which is generally downtown. Both for access and availability, and for community and economic development.
10-07-2014 11:40 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-07-2014 11:40 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  Personally I have always thought "on campus" works for rural campuses. If you are in a major metropolitan area, you need to be in the best spot to get into and out of, which is generally downtown. Both for access and availability, and for community and economic development.

How many students actually live on-campus at Miami and Pitt? If they are scattered all over the city, what difference does it make where the stadium is located?
10-07-2014 03:22 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Pitt and Miami need own stadiums
(10-07-2014 03:22 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(10-07-2014 11:40 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  Personally I have always thought "on campus" works for rural campuses. If you are in a major metropolitan area, you need to be in the best spot to get into and out of, which is generally downtown. Both for access and availability, and for community and economic development.

How many students actually live on-campus at Miami and Pitt? If they are scattered all over the city, what difference does it make where the stadium is located?

The bulk of undergrads are on-campus at both schools.

At Pitt, 97% of incoming freshman stay on-campus, and over 42% of overall undergrads. A good bulk of the remainder are in rental units in residential areas immediately adjacent to campus to the immediate north or south of campus.

At Miami, 87% of freshman and 38% of all undergrads are on-campus.

For a comparison, the numbers for Virginia Tech are 98% for freshman and 37% of all undergraduates.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2014 09:57 PM by CrazyPaco.)
10-07-2014 09:54 PM
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