It's not judt about the academics, it's about the commitment to finish. That says a lot about a person that companies want. That's why they require degrees.

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(09-19-2014 08:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's not judt about the academics, it's about the commitment to finish. That says a lot about a person that companies want. That's why they require degrees.

And your experience w/ companies is what?

(09-18-2014 10:07 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I still do. In fact my 8 year old and I were talking about it last night. I think college is still very important as long as one chooses the right major.

That's the kind of nuance that can't be caught in a headline grabbing survey question.

Quote:However, I've become a proponent of doing the first two years at a community college. Since both provide basically the same classes the first two years, why pay more at a university when you can get the same classes cheaper at a community college.

Here in Minnesota High School students can actually start taking community college classes using a program called PSEO.

My kids Piano teacher just graduated from HS 2 years ago and already has her BS degree. I know several home schoolers who's kids finished their HS education with at least two years out of the way.

Quote:I do agree that college isn't for everyone though. Someone with trade skills can make a lot of money without going to a four year school. Just go to a trade school, etc.

Agreed and it's quite disconcerting that many career pathways are limited by a piece of paper because HS education has become a joke in the US. There is no reason that someone should not be able to walk into an entry level business analyst position and then work their way into engineering over the next 10 years or so.

(09-19-2014 08:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-19-2014 08:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's not judt about the academics, it's about the commitment to finish. That says a lot about a person that companies want. That's why they require degrees.

And your experience w/ companies is what?

I was a supervisor for one for 11 years. I was told I couldn't go any higher without a degree.

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"A man's college and university degrees mean nothing to me until I see what he is able to do with them."

Henry Ford

(09-19-2014 09:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  "A man's college and university degrees mean nothing to me until I see what he is able to do with them."

Henry Ford

Degree just gets one in the door. A year later no one cares what your degree is if you are a performer.

(09-19-2014 09:26 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(09-19-2014 08:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(09-19-2014 08:12 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's not judt about the academics, it's about the commitment to finish. That says a lot about a person that companies want. That's why they require degrees.

And your experience w/ companies is what?

I was a supervisor for one for 11 years. I was told I couldn't go any higher without a degree.

So you got a degree and took steps down. How'd that work out for you?

Took steps down?

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(09-19-2014 10:32 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Took steps down?

It's English, you wouldn't understand.

This is what I wrote on another board a couple years back (also on CSNBBS but I can't find the thread):

Caltex2 Wrote:Bear with me, this is a long post.

Except for certain careers which can't be achieved without a degree, why do people still go to college now days in the information age when it's a click away? And yes, I did go to it but as the technology shift had just came into focus.


I know employers are looking for a college degree now days. That's not up for debate, I'm not arguing against that. I'm asking if college is a scam now days.


200-300 years ago, it was harder to communicate and travel and most people lived in rural areas with little to no formal education. It only made sense, if you wanted to get a higher education, to attend a college or university because that's where knowledge, both in the form of books and instruction, as well as for the research that was conducted and expanded for individuals and society in general. Even after the Industrial Revolution, communication still was an issue and travel was only gradually getting easier.


Fast forward to today. We have the internet with almost an infinite amount of info on a number of subjects. Perhaps some of it is misinfo or disinfo but regardless information is easier to obtain than ever for one to try and discern at their own discretion. People of all backgrounds write books of any subject matter imaginable and they're pretty much all available in mass consumption.


Some get scholarships so going to college on a free ride is understandable to a degree (no pun intended) but is it worth the time? Sometimes, yes but for others no. Then of course, you have the average person spending and/or even worse borrowing tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars with the hope of getting a good job, at least one worth the time and money. At the biggest schools, you don't even see the professor (who does so much research and hands off work to the grad assistant) and it's hard to get into a nurturing environment where, like high school, a professor may have reasonable one-on-one time with you. How much can you learn, even if you try your hardest, if you have lots of question and but lack direction? Athletes, who have to travel often and miss class, have it so much worse.


I'll try to wrap this up because it's long enough but why don't more people at least start at a JUCO , then go to the 4 year schools? Or perhaps consider a trade school, which can be cheaper and get you out and making money quicker? And for some, what's the point of going to college, spending both valuable time and money when all you want to do is mess around anyways (i.e. partying, drinking, Greek organizations, sex, sports, etc...)? Because of this idea of people going for these reasons, employers are starting to see beyond someone having a certain major and even having gone to a prestigious school because it doesn't prove they learned much there or they may not be qualified for the job. The grading system in the US has been a joke because it allows people who didn't make the grade in reality to pass anyways (and I benefited from this sometimes too).


I'm thinking, if you want to get out and meet people, go out and meet them. If in a small town/rural area go to the city and get a job, place to stay and meet people. If you want the college lifestyle, go live near a college and take part in the social life. The Greek organization thing is tricky, so you may have to bite the bullet for a semester to do that or have them illegally bring you in. If you want to support a certain college, then support them without enrolling unless you really want to or need it (sometimes enroll at a nearby school that offers what you want for cheaper). It's the milk without the cow, no strings attached. Most people don't know what they really want to do in life at 18, I know I didn't, so why go and get into lots of debt trying to find your way? Lots of people change their major after a year or two as well.

That's all I have on it for now, I know it's a lot to read, what do you think?

Like I said there, college isn't useless and most jobs require a bachelor's degree but it's not as important as it was even as recently as the turn of the century.

(09-18-2014 10:07 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I still do. In fact my 8 year old and I were talking about it last night. I think college is still very important as long as one chooses the right major. However, I've become a proponent of doing the first two years at a community college. Since both provide basically the same classes the first two years, why pay more at a university when you can get the same classes cheaper at a community college.

I do agree that college isn't for everyone though. Someone with trade skills can make a lot of money without going to a four year school. Just go to a trade school, etc.

We need people in trades and manual laborers, not everyone can have (or really, should want) a manual labor job. Or entertainment/sports for that matter, as there is a limited amount of spots or that.

(09-18-2014 10:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I do think the experience is important. The choice will likely be:

A. Go to the best 4-year you got into.
B. Go to a fallback 4-year on scholarship.
C. Go to the 2-year and transfer into the best 4-year you get into.

IMO, it depends on both the student and the schools in question. If the best 4-year they get into is top tier, choice A is probably worth it. If not, B looks like a good option if applicable. If B is not an option (no scholarships offered), C is probably the best option. As mentioned in another thread, what scares me about C is that being in the workforce and local and on their own for 2 years means they will get accustomed to a lifestyle, make tight-knit local friendships with new freedoms, and more likely develop much more intimate romantic relationships, making it less likely the transfer to and completion of the 4-year goal will ever go according to plan. One thing that will not be an option will be living at home and not working while doing the 2-year. He won't want to stay home and pay rent either because the rules of my house will not change upon turning 18 and graduating high school.

Can't you get much of the so-called "college experience" by taking a few courses that are relevant/interest you, LIVE in a college town/area as a young adult and simply walk around campus and attend events? Some won't let you join a fraternity unless you're a full-time student but can't you just create your own, as cheesy as that sounds? After all, most are nothing more than drinking buddies clubs.

This doesn't speak to those who actually go college for an area of concentration that really requires it like something medical, dealing with a hard science and/or mathematics.

(09-18-2014 10:46 AM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  In fairness the survey says about 90% of parents believe a college education is "very" OR "fairly" important. But, I think you two really encompass the new thinking. Students should be savvy in how they go about things today. For some, a tech school or going straight into the workforce is best. For others, it depends on what kind of school you get into and how much you have to pay and what kind of career you want to get into.

And nobody says you can't go to college later than 18, as a matter of fact many people do. Many people are immature at 18 (I know I was) and need some time to figure out what they want to do.

(09-19-2014 10:57 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  This is what I wrote on another board a couple years back (also on CSNBBS but I can't find the thread):

Caltex2 Wrote:Bear with me, this is a long post.

Except for certain careers which can't be achieved without a degree, why do people still go to college now days in the information age when it's a click away? And yes, I did go to it but as the technology shift had just came into focus.


I know employers are looking for a college degree now days. That's not up for debate, I'm not arguing against that. I'm asking if college is a scam now days.


200-300 years ago, it was harder to communicate and travel and most people lived in rural areas with little to no formal education. It only made sense, if you wanted to get a higher education, to attend a college or university because that's where knowledge, both in the form of books and instruction, as well as for the research that was conducted and expanded for individuals and society in general. Even after the Industrial Revolution, communication still was an issue and travel was only gradually getting easier.


Fast forward to today. We have the internet with almost an infinite amount of info on a number of subjects. Perhaps some of it is misinfo or disinfo but regardless information is easier to obtain than ever for one to try and discern at their own discretion. People of all backgrounds write books of any subject matter imaginable and they're pretty much all available in mass consumption.


Some get scholarships so going to college on a free ride is understandable to a degree (no pun intended) but is it worth the time? Sometimes, yes but for others no. Then of course, you have the average person spending and/or even worse borrowing tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars with the hope of getting a good job, at least one worth the time and money. At the biggest schools, you don't even see the professor (who does so much research and hands off work to the grad assistant) and it's hard to get into a nurturing environment where, like high school, a professor may have reasonable one-on-one time with you. How much can you learn, even if you try your hardest, if you have lots of question and but lack direction? Athletes, who have to travel often and miss class, have it so much worse.


I'll try to wrap this up because it's long enough but why don't more people at least start at a JUCO , then go to the 4 year schools? Or perhaps consider a trade school, which can be cheaper and get you out and making money quicker? And for some, what's the point of going to college, spending both valuable time and money when all you want to do is mess around anyways (i.e. partying, drinking, Greek organizations, sex, sports, etc...)? Because of this idea of people going for these reasons, employers are starting to see beyond someone having a certain major and even having gone to a prestigious school because it doesn't prove they learned much there or they may not be qualified for the job. The grading system in the US has been a joke because it allows people who didn't make the grade in reality to pass anyways (and I benefited from this sometimes too).


I'm thinking, if you want to get out and meet people, go out and meet them. If in a small town/rural area go to the city and get a job, place to stay and meet people. If you want the college lifestyle, go live near a college and take part in the social life. The Greek organization thing is tricky, so you may have to bite the bullet for a semester to do that or have them illegally bring you in. If you want to support a certain college, then support them without enrolling unless you really want to or need it (sometimes enroll at a nearby school that offers what you want for cheaper). It's the milk without the cow, no strings attached. Most people don't know what they really want to do in life at 18, I know I didn't, so why go and get into lots of debt trying to find your way? Lots of people change their major after a year or two as well.

That's all I have on it for now, I know it's a lot to read, what do you think?

Like I said there, college isn't useless and most jobs require a bachelor's degree but it's not as important as it was even as recently as the turn of the century.

(09-18-2014 10:07 AM)VA49er Wrote:  I still do. In fact my 8 year old and I were talking about it last night. I think college is still very important as long as one chooses the right major. However, I've become a proponent of doing the first two years at a community college. Since both provide basically the same classes the first two years, why pay more at a university when you can get the same classes cheaper at a community college.

I do agree that college isn't for everyone though. Someone with trade skills can make a lot of money without going to a four year school. Just go to a trade school, etc.

We need people in trades and manual laborers, not everyone can have (or really, should want) a manual labor job. Or entertainment/sports for that matter, as there is a limited amount of spots or that.

(09-18-2014 10:29 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I do think the experience is important. The choice will likely be:

A. Go to the best 4-year you got into.
B. Go to a fallback 4-year on scholarship.
C. Go to the 2-year and transfer into the best 4-year you get into.

IMO, it depends on both the student and the schools in question. If the best 4-year they get into is top tier, choice A is probably worth it. If not, B looks like a good option if applicable. If B is not an option (no scholarships offered), C is probably the best option. As mentioned in another thread, what scares me about C is that being in the workforce and local and on their own for 2 years means they will get accustomed to a lifestyle, make tight-knit local friendships with new freedoms, and more likely develop much more intimate romantic relationships, making it less likely the transfer to and completion of the 4-year goal will ever go according to plan. One thing that will not be an option will be living at home and not working while doing the 2-year. He won't want to stay home and pay rent either because the rules of my house will not change upon turning 18 and graduating high school.

Can't you get much of the so-called "college experience" by taking a few courses that are relevant/interest you, LIVE in a college town/area as a young adult and simply walk around campus and attend events? Some won't let you join a fraternity unless you're a full-time student but can't you just create your own, as cheesy as that sounds? After all, most are nothing more than drinking buddies clubs.

This doesn't speak to those who actually go college for an area of concentration that really requires it like something medical, dealing with a hard science and/or mathematics.

I disagree. I think it's even more important today than is ever been.

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Depending on what you go to school for. If you're just there for the side stuff, it's just not worth the ROI, imo. Plus, I think fewer and fewer employers are falling for someone merely having a diploma. Hypothetically, if I were hiring a public speaker, I honestly would rather have a high school *edit: dropout* who has outstanding credentials, is articulate and knows how to mix, engage and intermingle with people than someone who went to a top 50 academic powerhouse and graduated with a solid GPA but is timid in front of people. That's just one example because alternatively, I'd rather let someone who studied at a top medical school perform surgery on someone rather than do it myself, LOL.

If colleges would drop their liberal/radical agenda, the value of a college education would increase.


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Doesn't matter what most Americans think. It matters what HR departments think, it matters what those professional recruiters think.

This is something we do differently than almost every other country. The UK, Canada, Germany, France, the Nordics, Australia, New Zealand, the Netherlands, etc have never had the illusion that university should be for everyone.

(09-20-2014 10:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  If colleges would drop their liberal/radical agenda, the value of a college education would increase.


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That agenda has probably been around since the first university was founded.

(09-20-2014 10:46 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 10:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  If colleges would drop their liberal/radical agenda, the value of a college education would increase.


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That agenda has probably been around since the first university was founded.

Possibly, but it grew exponentially when the 60's radicals became professors.


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(09-20-2014 10:49 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 10:46 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(09-20-2014 10:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  If colleges would drop their liberal/radical agenda, the value of a college education would increase.


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That agenda has probably been around since the first university was founded.

Possibly, but it grew exponentially when the 60's radicals became professors.


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Probably not as much as you think. You're thinking too contemporarily (if that's a word).

There is a war on higher education because education is the great equalizer. It's more difficult to hold down educated minorities.

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The biggest threat to poor minorities today in the higher education system is that they will be saddled with even greater debt and push their communities further into poverty. It ins't any sort of equalizer today.