(09-17-2014 10:09 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  What is ambiguous is what the threshold will be for the rematch scenario. If UF is a bubble team at 13/14 and two SEC teams ahead of them make the playoff, and the B1G champ is in the Rose, and the ACC Champ is out of the top 4, and ACC vs UF is a rematch, how far down would they be able to go? What if ND and B1G second place have terrible years? Would the OB be stuck with the rematch no matter what? You need a perfect storm scenario for this, but it is a possibility.

what you are saying would almost be a historical type year.

First off, what you are saying would be year 3 of the BCS, with Peach and Fiesta hosting the SF(because Big 10 champ in Rose). What you are saying would require the Big 12 and Pac 12 to have literally like all but 2 spots in the 5-12 range(with the ACC B10 champs not in the playoffs for sure, and then 1 of P12 or B12 not in either). It's possible- but not realistic at all.

(09-17-2014 09:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 08:11 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say look at the Orange Bowl's blurb that I posted on the other thread....
The Big Ten and SEC will receive a minimum of three Orange Bowl appearances each during the eight games and Notre Dame
may make up to two appearances in the eight games.

So does not look at all like the SEC/Big Ten/ND have that guarantee in the years that the Orange is hosting the SF.

Your blurb does not address the issue that is raised here by the ESPN article. It is silent on what happens to the B1G/SEC/ND team that would have gone to the Orange had the Orange not been hosting a playoff.

I think I would take what the Orange Bowl is posting over what ESPN is posting. The ACC champion is guaranteed a slot in the CFP, not the SEC/Big Ten/ND team when the Orange is hosting a SF.

Not sure why. ESPN is the broadcast partner for the Orange Bowl and would definitely have an interest in and be knowledgeable about how the OB teams are chosen and what happens when the OB is a playoff bowl. As the broadcaster for all the CFP, they have a vested interest in exactly what happens to various teams under various scenarios so their information should be as reliable as the Orange Bowl's.

But even if we accept that the Orange has better knowledge, the problem with your perspective is that the Orange posting in no way contradicts the ESPN posting. It is silent on what happens to the SEC/B1G/ND team when the Orange is hosting the playoffs.

(09-17-2014 10:09 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  What is ambiguous is what the threshold will be for the rematch scenario. If UF is a bubble team at 13/14 and two SEC teams ahead of them make the playoff, and the B1G champ is in the Rose, and the ACC Champ is out of the top 4, and ACC vs UF is a rematch, how far down would they be able to go? What if ND and B1G second place have terrible years? Would the OB be stuck with the rematch no matter what? You need a perfect storm scenario for this, but it is a possibility.

By what everything that has been written, the Orange has total discretion. They can go down as far as they want to to get that replacement for UF if they don't want UF.

It's like when the BCS chairman was asked about the guaranteed spot for a G5 team, and specifically what would happen if no G5 was ranked in the top 25 or however far down the committee usually ranks, he said "well, we'll just keep ranking" until we find the highest-ranked G5 team.

(09-17-2014 10:40 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 08:11 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say look at the Orange Bowl's blurb that I posted on the other thread....
The Big Ten and SEC will receive a minimum of three Orange Bowl appearances each during the eight games and Notre Dame
may make up to two appearances in the eight games.

So does not look at all like the SEC/Big Ten/ND have that guarantee in the years that the Orange is hosting the SF.

Your blurb does not address the issue that is raised here by the ESPN article. It is silent on what happens to the B1G/SEC/ND team that would have gone to the Orange had the Orange not been hosting a playoff.

I think I would take what the Orange Bowl is posting over what ESPN is posting. The ACC champion is guaranteed a slot in the CFP, not the SEC/Big Ten/ND team when the Orange is hosting a SF.

Not sure why. ESPN is the broadcast partner for the Orange Bowl and would definitely have an interest in and be knowledgeable about how the OB teams are chosen and what happens when the OB is a playoff bowl. As the broadcaster for all the CFP, they have a vested interest in exactly what happens to various teams under various scenarios so their information should be as reliable as the Orange Bowl's.

But even if we accept that the Orange has better knowledge, the problem with your perspective is that the Orange posting in no way contradicts the ESPN posting. It is silent on what happens to the SEC/B1G/ND team when the Orange is hosting the playoffs.

I think it's pretty clear from the college football playoff webpage:
When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls.

Note it says nothing about displaced teams. It's just displaced champions.

I dont see how or where Big 10 #2, SEC #2, Notre Dame is guaranteed anything when the Orange Bowl is in a playoff. The Orange Bowl deal was set up to give them first dibs over the teams they want over the Access Bowls when they are not hosting a playoff game. 9 times out of 10 when the Orange Bowl utilizes the rematch clause it will result in a simple swap between an access bowl team with the Orange Bowl team.

The only time it could get messy is if there are no other high ranked SEC, Big 10 teams to swap.

Example of a messy year (Fiesta and Peach are hosting)
#1 FSU - ACC Champ
#2 Oklahoma - Big 12 Champ
#3 Alabama - SEC Champ
#4 LSU
#5 Ohio State - Big 10 Champ
#6 USC Pac 12 Champ
#7 Oregon
#8 Texas
#9 Kansas St
#10 Stanford
#11 Clemson
#12 Georgia
#13 WVU
#14 Cincinnati
#15 Boise State
#16 BYU
#17 South Carolina
#18 Virginia Tech
#19 UNC
#20 Northern Illinois

PEACH - FSU v. LSU
FIESTA - Oklahoma v. Alabama
SUGAR - Georgia v. Texas
ROSE - Ohio St. v. USC
COTTON - Oregon v. Cincinnati
ORANGE - Clemson v. South Carolina

If the Orange Bowl wanted to avoid a rematch it would have to go possibly outside of the top 25 and would be prohibited from taking a solid Kansas St or WVU team due to contract. If they did decide to replace South Carolina, I see no way where South Carolina would knock Oregon out of the Cotton Bowl. The PAC 12 would not stand for it and it would cause a tremendous amount of unnecessary grief. Such a scenario is highly unlikely but would come across like the old BCS system, which is something I know they want to avoid.

yeah or the sugar/sec could swap out georgia which I'm assuming is not the sec champ here. Again, even though some won't believe it, there will be some wiggle room outside of the playoff.

(09-17-2014 12:02 PM)TIGER-PAUL Wrote:  yeah or the sugar/sec could swap out georgia which I'm assuming is not the sec champ here. Again, even though some won't believe it, there will be some wiggle room outside of the playoff.

yeah but that this year doesn't do any good either- as Clemson played Georgia as well....

(09-17-2014 12:02 PM)TIGER-PAUL Wrote:  yeah or the sugar/sec could swap out georgia which I'm assuming is not the sec champ here. Again, even though some won't believe it, there will be some wiggle room outside of the playoff.

They could but why would sugar do that? Whats in it for them?

I'm curious if there's any change to how the money gets distributed if the rematch clause is utilized. If ND gets swapped out, they'd go from the Orange Bowl which pays them $13.75 million to an access bowl that pays $4 million. The SEC or Big 10 would go from a $26.5 million payday to $4 million if the replacement team wasn't from the same conference. That's a lot of money to lose out just to avoid a rematch in what in the end is really nothing more than an exhibition game.

(09-17-2014 09:41 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:10 AM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I think there's a little misinterpretation here. It's more like:

1. The ACC will take the highest Big Ten, SEC team or Notre Dame.
2. It can skip over a team because it's a rematch or for minimum number of times requirement.
3. If a team is skipped over, it can end up in an access bowl if the committee has them ranked high enough.
4. If that team is not ranked high enough (doubtful to ever happen frankly given the number of possible teams and the fact they choose ahead of the access bowls), then the team is not in an access bowl.

So it's not a guarantee of anything. It's just saying the team will likely be in another CFP bowl providing it's high enough in the committee's eyes.

Edit: As for the placement of teams, the only teams that will be automatically put in access bowls are displaced conference champs and the the highest Group of 5 champ. That's been stated multiple times. Anything saying a second team from any conference is automatically in anything except their contract bowls (Rose, Sugar, Orange themselves) is incorrect.

I have highlighted statements above that I believe are incorrect or unsupported.

1. First, the ACC does not "take" anything. Neither does the Orange Bowl. Neither have any discretion to deviate from the terms of the contracts signed with the SEC, B1G, and Notre Dame. The ACC doesn't control anything here. It is a partner to a contract like all the other parties and has to follow its terms.

2. The Orange Bowl, not the ACC, does have the discretion to skip over an SEC/B1G/ND team if that creates a rematch it does not like, but again, that is not the ACC's call, it is the Orange Bowl's call.

As for your #3, that is exactly what is in question: The ESPN article refers to a "minimum ranking requirement", but nowhere in the CFP is there any such requirement for any team to fill any non-playoff contract or access bowl.

As for #4, that's your view, but the ESPN article disagrees. That's the issue as well.

1. I should have said Orange Bowl. Did not realize I said ACC.

2. Agreed.

3. Minimum ranking likely seems the last team selected for an CFP bowl. The committee will take the highest in its ranking for the open bids. It's not a set number (since the number of open spots also isn't).

4. The ESPN article might have phrased differently, but it's been quoted numerous times before that only champs are in. From the CFP official website:

"Both participants in the Orange, Rose and Sugar Bowls are contracted outside the playoff arrange­ment (Big Ten and Pac-12 to Rose Bowl; SEC and Big 12 to Sugar Bowl; ACC to Orange Bowl against the highest ranked available team from the SEC, Big Ten and Notre Dame). If a conference champion qualifies for the playoff, then the bowl will choose a replacement from that conference. When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls.

The Fiesta, Cotton and Peach Bowls will host displaced conference champions and the top-ranked champion from a non-contract conference. The highest-ranked available teams will fill any other berths. The Selection Committee will make the pairings."

(09-17-2014 11:02 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 10:40 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:49 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 09:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 08:11 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say look at the Orange Bowl's blurb that I posted on the other thread....
The Big Ten and SEC will receive a minimum of three Orange Bowl appearances each during the eight games and Notre Dame
may make up to two appearances in the eight games.

So does not look at all like the SEC/Big Ten/ND have that guarantee in the years that the Orange is hosting the SF.

Your blurb does not address the issue that is raised here by the ESPN article. It is silent on what happens to the B1G/SEC/ND team that would have gone to the Orange had the Orange not been hosting a playoff.

I think I would take what the Orange Bowl is posting over what ESPN is posting. The ACC champion is guaranteed a slot in the CFP, not the SEC/Big Ten/ND team when the Orange is hosting a SF.

Not sure why. ESPN is the broadcast partner for the Orange Bowl and would definitely have an interest in and be knowledgeable about how the OB teams are chosen and what happens when the OB is a playoff bowl. As the broadcaster for all the CFP, they have a vested interest in exactly what happens to various teams under various scenarios so their information should be as reliable as the Orange Bowl's.

But even if we accept that the Orange has better knowledge, the problem with your perspective is that the Orange posting in no way contradicts the ESPN posting. It is silent on what happens to the SEC/B1G/ND team when the Orange is hosting the playoffs.

I think it's pretty clear from the college football playoff webpage:
When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls.

Note it says nothing about displaced teams. It's just displaced champions.

Again, it says nothing, it doesn't say they won't get placed in an Access bowl. But the ESPN website does.

(09-17-2014 01:06 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 12:02 PM)TIGER-PAUL Wrote:  yeah or the sugar/sec could swap out georgia which I'm assuming is not the sec champ here. Again, even though some won't believe it, there will be some wiggle room outside of the playoff.

They could but why would sugar do that? Whats in it for them?

The CFP web page says the CFP committee will determine the bowl pairings. You guys are assuming the committee will consult with the bowls on what the bowls want, and even allow them to cut deals among themselves, but it doesn't seem like it has to.

(09-17-2014 04:53 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  3. Minimum ranking likely seems the last team selected for an CFP bowl. The committee will take the highest in its ranking for the open bids. It's not a set number (since the number of open spots also isn't).

4. The ESPN article might have phrased differently, but it's been quoted numerous times before that only champs are in. From the CFP official website:

"Both participants in the Orange, Rose and Sugar Bowls are contracted outside the playoff arrange­ment (Big Ten and Pac-12 to Rose Bowl; SEC and Big 12 to Sugar Bowl; ACC to Orange Bowl against the highest ranked available team from the SEC, Big Ten and Notre Dame). If a conference champion qualifies for the playoff, then the bowl will choose a replacement from that conference. When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls.

The Fiesta, Cotton and Peach Bowls will host displaced conference champions and the top-ranked champion from a non-contract conference. The highest-ranked available teams will fill any other berths. The Selection Committee will make the pairings."

Since we agree about 1 and 2, let me address your revised 3 and 4:

About 3: I agree that if there is a "minimum ranking requirement" it probably means what you describe above.

I just wonder if ESPN is correct. It would seem to be a pretty big injustice for a team to be the highest ranked available among the SEC, B1G, and Notre Dame, and yet not only get bounced from the Orange Bowl but also completely out of the Access Bowls, all the way down to a minor bowl, merely because the Orange Bowl doesn't like that they would be a rematch with the ACC team. Common sense seems to indicate that this team would accommodated in an Access Bowl regardless of its ranking.

About 4: I agree that the CFP website emphasizes "Champions" who get bounced from a Contract bowl getting a spot in an Access bowl. No doubt, it hammers the word "Champions" pretty decisively, and it is likely that in some years the SEC/B1G/ND team that would play in the Orange would not be a conference champion.

Still, I again think about the 'justice' issue: If all the other contract schools get an Access bowl spot when bounced, why should one party to the Orange Bowl contract get left out? Kind of beggars belief to me.

(09-17-2014 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Since we agree about 1 and 2, let me address your revised 3 and 4:

About 3: I agree that if there is a "minimum ranking requirement" it probably means what you describe above.

I just wonder if ESPN is correct. It would seem to be a pretty big injustice for a team to be the highest ranked available among the SEC, B1G, and Notre Dame, and yet not only get bounced from the Orange Bowl but also completely out of the Access Bowls, all the way down to a minor bowl, merely because the Orange Bowl doesn't like that they would be a rematch with the ACC team.

That may be an injustice, that a #12 South Carolina is bounced from the Orange Bowl vs Clemson to avoid a rematch, and #14 Michigan goes to the Orange, #12 South CArolina to the Cap One. But that problem isn't solved by bouncing #11 Oklahoma State from the Access Bowl to make room for #12 South Carolina.

The Access Bowls are taking the up-to-6 highest ranked teams after the playoff, G5 champ and homeless conference champs aside. Usually, the team bounced from the Orange Bowl will be in that range. If not, too bad.

Quote:Common sense seems to indicate that this team would accommodated in an Access Bowl regardless of its ranking.

That may sound like common sense to SEC and Big Ten fans, but I doubt it sounds that way to PAC or XII or even ACC fans.

Quote:Still, I again think about the 'justice' issue: If all the other contract schools get an Access bowl spot when bounced, why should one party to the Orange Bowl contract get left out? Kind of beggars belief to me.

Because in the negotiations, every conference protected their champion, and the G5 as a whole got one champion in. It would have been quite difficult for the B1G and SEC to convince the XII and PAC to protect the Orange Bowl Opponent, at the expense of deserving non-B1G non-SEC non-ND teams.

(09-17-2014 06:30 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 06:19 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Since we agree about 1 and 2, let me address your revised 3 and 4:

About 3: I agree that if there is a "minimum ranking requirement" it probably means what you describe above.

I just wonder if ESPN is correct. It would seem to be a pretty big injustice for a team to be the highest ranked available among the SEC, B1G, and Notre Dame, and yet not only get bounced from the Orange Bowl but also completely out of the Access Bowls, all the way down to a minor bowl, merely because the Orange Bowl doesn't like that they would be a rematch with the ACC team.

That may be an injustice, that a #12 South Carolina is bounced from the Orange Bowl vs Clemson to avoid a rematch, and #14 Michigan goes to the Orange, #12 South CArolina to the Cap One. But that problem isn't solved by bouncing #11 Oklahoma State from the Access Bowl to make room for #12 South Carolina.

The Access Bowls are taking the up-to-6 highest ranked teams after the playoff, G5 champ and homeless conference champs aside. Usually, the team bounced from the Orange Bowl will be in that range. If not, too bad.

Quote:Common sense seems to indicate that this team would accommodated in an Access Bowl regardless of its ranking.

That may sound like common sense to SEC and Big Ten fans, but I doubt it sounds that way to PAC or XII or even ACC fans.

Quote:Still, I again think about the 'justice' issue: If all the other contract schools get an Access bowl spot when bounced, why should one party to the Orange Bowl contract get left out? Kind of beggars belief to me.

Because in the negotiations, every conference protected their champion, and the G5 as a whole got one champion in. It would have been quite difficult for the B1G and SEC to convince the XII and PAC to protect the Orange Bowl Opponent, at the expense of deserving non-B1G non-SEC non-ND teams.

About the passed-over rematch team not making an Access Bowl: If you are correct, that would seem to harm ND and the SEC far more than the ACC, since the SEC has several big regular season matchups with the ACC (Clemson-SC, FSU-UF, Georgia-GT) whereas the B1G has virtually none. And of course ND will be playing several ACC teams each year.

IOW's, the odds of the rematch clause being invoked against the SEC or ND is pretty high, against the B1G almost nil. I'm not sure the SEC or ND would be OK with that sans some kind of protection for their bounced team. It is true that the SEC has some protection via the mandatory-3 appearances clause, but those other two appearances that could be up for grabs are for big money, too.

Also, I am not sure why the PAC or XII would need much convincing. The contract between the OB and the SEC/B1G/ND already means that in 8 of 12 years, when the Orange is not a playoff bowl, a #11 Oklahoma State could miss out on an Access Bowl while a #12 South Carolina (or #14 Michigan) would play in the Orange Bowl, thanks to the contract the B1G and SEC have with that bowl. It's not their fault the Orange wasn't interested in bringing the XII or PAC into the arrangement.

So extending that same "if bounced from contract bowl you go to access bowl" logic to the remaining four years sounds sensible.

(09-17-2014 05:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 01:06 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(09-17-2014 12:02 PM)TIGER-PAUL Wrote:  yeah or the sugar/sec could swap out georgia which I'm assuming is not the sec champ here. Again, even though some won't believe it, there will be some wiggle room outside of the playoff.

They could but why would sugar do that? Whats in it for them?

The CFP web page says the CFP committee will determine the bowl pairings. You guys are assuming the committee will consult with the bowls on what the bowls want, and even allow them to cut deals among themselves, but it doesn't seem like it has to.

agree, especially for the access bowls. Maybe the sec asks? I don't know, maybe sugar will have a rematch of non champs the next time they are not in playoff?

I dont believe the committee technically picks teams for the orange sugar or rose bowl at least that is my interpretation of the website

From the website: Both participants in the Orange, Rose and Sugar Bowls are contracted outside the playoff arrange­ment (Big Ten and Pac-12 to Rose Bowl; SEC and Big 12 to Sugar Bowl; ACC to Orange Bowl against the highest ranked available team from the SEC, Big Ten and Notre Dame). If a conference champion qualifies for the playoff, then the bowl will choose a replacement from that conference. When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls. The Fiesta, Cotton and Peach Bowls will host displaced conference champions and the top-ranked champion from a non-contract conference. The highest-ranked available teams will fill any other berths. The Selection Committee will make the pairings.


The Selection Committee is only in charge of the playoff and access bowls. The contract bowls are on their own when they lose a team, although i suspect they will use the committtes rankings unless it causes a rematch

(09-18-2014 04:22 AM)solohawks Wrote:  I dont believe the committee technically picks teams for the orange sugar or rose bowl at least that is my interpretation of the website

From the website: Both participants in the Orange, Rose and Sugar Bowls are contracted outside the playoff arrange­ment (Big Ten and Pac-12 to Rose Bowl; SEC and Big 12 to Sugar Bowl; ACC to Orange Bowl against the highest ranked available team from the SEC, Big Ten and Notre Dame). If a conference champion qualifies for the playoff, then the bowl will choose a replacement from that conference. When those bowls host the semifinals and their contracted conference champions do not qualify, then the dis­placed champion(s) will play in the other New Year’s bowls. The Fiesta, Cotton and Peach Bowls will host displaced conference champions and the top-ranked champion from a non-contract conference. The highest-ranked available teams will fill any other berths. The Selection Committee will make the pairings.


The Selection Committee is only in charge of the playoff and access bowls. The contract bowls are on their own when they lose a team, although i suspect they will use the committtes rankings unless it causes a rematch

The CFP does determine the playoff and Access bowl matchups, but that doesn't mean the contract bowls are "on their own" (when not hosting a playoff) to make matchups, even when they lose a team to the playoffs or in the case of the Orange, if the "no B1G or SEC champ can play in the Orange" rule is in effect. By definition, they have contracts that specify which teams will play in their games under all permutations.

what I think is going to be interesting is next year- will the Rose and Sugar have to replace a playoff champion with the next highest ranked team.

(09-18-2014 08:03 AM)stever20 Wrote:  what I think is going to be interesting is next year- will the Rose and Sugar have to replace a playoff champion with the next highest ranked team.

By my understanding, if the B1G or SEC champion is in the playoffs and thus taken from other bowls, then the Rose and Sugar get a school from their contracted conferences, and that team is, with no discretion on the part of the bowl, the top-ranked available from those conferences.

E.g., if the Rose loses champ Ohio State to the playoff Cotton Bowl, if #12 Iowa is the next-highest rated B1G team, Iowa goes to the Rose, the Rose can't pass them over for say #15 Michigan.

I also found another interesting vignette I wasn't aware of: If the Orange Bowl is a playoff bowl and the ACC champion does not make the playoffs, then the ACC champion plays in either the Peach or Fiesta Bowls, but never the Cotton Bowl.