2016 seems like it will be the year we look back on as when EVs really took off. LG Chem has something figured out when it comes to batteries (price/life/something) and seem to be sweeping up contracts left and right.

First LG came out and said, they had a partner for a 200 mile EV to be introduced in 2016. I didn't think much of that. Tesla has a 200 mile EV, plenty of capital seeking battery companies make this claim every month.

Then GM started holding focus groups to gauge the interest in a 200 mile range $30k EV. Reports trickled out, but GM did a good job of getting people to take down any first hand accounts. This brought a bit more plausibility to it, but I thought it might be FUD by GM to slow Tesla growth.

Then came reports that even Nissan might be switching to LG. Nissan is highly invested in EVs. They have their own battery research team and their own battery manufacturing plants for the LEAF. If LG has demo'd them tech that is so much of a game changer that they're going to eat these capital investments, it's big.

So... 2016 $30k 200 mile range EV, would you be in?

I don't have a full electric but I do have a honda civic hybrid. It gets over 500 miles to the tank. I didn't get it for the environment but I bought it cause I save hundreds a month on gas that would go to line the pockets of some rich douche that's a tax subsidized oil tycoon or some wealthy Arab state that most likely funnels the same money to Hezbollah or Hamas.

(09-16-2014 10:22 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  I don't have a full electric but I do have a honda civic hybrid. It gets over 500 miles to the tank. I didn't get it for the environment but I bought it cause I save hundreds a month on gas that would go to line the pockets of some rich douche that's a tax subsidized oil tycoon or some wealthy Arab state that most likely funnels the same money to Hezbollah or Hamas.

I have a LEAF and the environment has never been a reason why. Top reason was economics. In GA I get a huge income tax credit. Second was because I'm a huge geek. The idea that all that electrical energy, to go 80+ miles, can be stored in a reversible way is totally sci-fi when you think about it. Third was, like you said, any little thing I can do to go against the oil/gas industry. Nothing good going on around oil.

The funny thing is that while these all still apply, the top reasons I'd get another are different. First is surprisingly, convenience. Not going to a gas station, ever, is really nice. We still have a gas car for long trips, but that's my wife's problem. Never needing to work in a trip to a gas station, even if it's two or three times a month, is great. Having a "gas station" in my garage turns out to be really convenient. Second is the "luxury" of the ride. Perfectly smooth acceleration, dead silent, instant response.

I would be in. I drive 30K+ miles a year and need a range greater than what the current EVs offer. I would also need a battery warranty greater than what is currently being offered. If I have to replace the battery at some point I would imagine any savings in gas would be taken down to nothing. I didn't think about the time savings from never going to a gas station, I love saving time in any way possible.

For me the decision is all economic. If it happens to benefit the environment, great, but that is not a primary concern of mine.

On a side note, I have always been curious, are EVs good for the environment? I get that they don't burn fossil fuel but does the mining and production of the batteries off set those gains completely?

(09-16-2014 11:27 AM)apoe Wrote:  On a side note, I have always been curious, are EVs good for the environment? I get that they don't burn fossil fuel but does the mining and production of the batteries off set those gains completely?

I've never seen a truly fair comparison.

Elon Musk (Tesla CEO), pretty much ignores battery and other EV component production in his comparisons.

The more common comparison, dissects every aspect of the EV production from the battery to the assembly workers consumption of non-fair trade coffee. However they completely ignore the energy required (and how it's produced) to refine a gallon of gas. They also assume that the battery will just get thrown in a landfill once it comes out of the car and the grid will never get more environmentally friendly.

(09-16-2014 11:43 AM)SublimeKnight Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 11:27 AM)apoe Wrote:  On a side note, I have always been curious, are EVs good for the environment? I get that they don't burn fossil fuel but does the mining and production of the batteries off set those gains completely?

I've never seen a truly fair comparison.

Elon Musk (Tesla CEO), pretty much ignores battery and other EV component production in his comparisons.

The more common comparison, dissects every aspect of the EV production from the battery to the assembly workers consumption of non-fair trade coffee. However they completely ignore the energy required (and how it's produced) to refine a gallon of gas. They also assume that the battery will just get thrown in a landfill once it comes out of the car and the grid will never get more environmentally friendly.

In a CBS Sunday Morning interview, Musk said his main goal moving forward is reinventing the battery. Obviously size and weight are the primary concern but it sounded as if he preferred for it to be better for the environment than the current battery situation. I know that's small consolation for those who care deeply. Just thought I'd put that insignificant tidbit out there.

(09-17-2014 10:20 AM)apex_pirate Wrote:  In a CBS Sunday Morning interview, Musk said his main goal moving forward is reinventing the battery. Obviously size and weight are the primary concern but it sounded as if he preferred for it to be better for the environment than the current battery situation. I know that's small consolation for those who care deeply. Just thought I'd put that insignificant tidbit out there.

He's building a huge battery factory in Reno. Capacity greater than all current battery factories today combined. They have been using the cell form factor found in laptops, to take advantage of existing factory production. With their own factory, they've been looking at things they'd change to optimize cost for their use.
They've also spec'd the plant to include a recycling center, so old packs cells come in, get reduced down to raw materials, and go back in with the new raw materials.
I think the recycling portion is just window dressing and PR though. Once the packs have degraded too much for auto use, they're still more valuable than their raw materials for solar storage. They could be used that way for another decade or more. So I think we're a long way off from needing to be too concerned about recycling batteries.

How is this any better than using gas?

(09-28-2014 01:44 PM)AirRaid Wrote:  How is this any better than using gas?

I guess you're asking, in general, why is an EV better than a gas car?

Behind the wheel driving experience is just so much better in an EV. Everything a gas car strives to be: quiet, smooth, responsive, low center of gravity. The EV delivers, even a cheap one like the LEAF. Just for this alone, I'd jump through crazy hoops to keep driving an EV. Whenever I have to drive a gas car the experience is very steam punk.

Week to week, never going to a gas station, is just much more convenient. If you've never owned an EV, it's truly tough to get your head around, but I've experienced "range anxiety" more frequently in my gas cars than my 80 mile range LEAF. Having to hit a gas station always seemed to happen at the wrong time. I was running late to work, so I'd push that 30 miles to empty, to fill up at lunch or after work.

Month to month, there's no maintenance. No oil changes to keep track of, transmissions flushes, brake pads last forever because most of your braking is regen. Also fluctuations in gas prices don't affect your budget at all.

For those interested:
General Motors plans to introduce an all-electric Chevrolet, global product chief Mark Reuss confirmed today.

GM also said the redesigned Volt will "leap-frog a lot of the competition". The only range extended electric car I can think of that is arguably better than the Volt is the BMW i3, which has ~80 miles of range electric range, plus the gas engine. I don't see how it's possible to beat that, unless they mean on price.

(09-16-2014 10:22 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  I don't have a full electric but I do have a honda civic hybrid. It gets over 500 miles to the tank. I didn't get it for the environment but I bought it cause I save hundreds a month on gas that would go to line the pockets of some rich douche that's a tax subsidized oil tycoon or some wealthy Arab state that most likely funnels the same money to Hezbollah or Hamas.

I have a hybrid civic and I don't get anywhere near that. I used to get about 475 per tank when I had a long interstate commute, but all my driving is now in the city and I only get mid to upper 30's per gallon now. It still kills on road trips if I don't drive like an *******, but for my day to day its mileage is nothing special.

(09-28-2014 01:44 PM)AirRaid Wrote:  How is this any better than using gas?

1) Energy independence
2) Less maintenance
3) No worries about fluctuating prices at the pump
4) Depending on the grid you're plugging into ie nuclear, renewable, or even natural gas you are lowering CO2 emissions. So anything but coal essentially.


This technology is really a win win all the way around and yes I could get one at a 200 mile range.

Kind of amazing the age we live in. Elon Musk is the first truly revolutionary innovator in the automotive industry since Henry Ford.

Tesla announces a new Model S that does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and has autopilot.

Great reaction to the acceleration:




The actual announcement:

2017 Chevy Bolt. 200 miles of range for $30k and fairly ugly.

I'm still on the fence. I just don't think electric cars are the future. Short-term maybe.

We will move away from fossil fuels, but I just dont think electricity is the answer, currently.

Someone will need to invent a new type of battery (better life span, more capcity, less weight, rapid recharge) before electricity becomes a true, viable alternative for the masses.

(01-16-2015 10:58 AM)muffinman Wrote:  Someone will need to invent a new type of battery (better life span, more capcity, less weight, rapid recharge) before electricity becomes a true, viable alternative for the masses.

I believe these are coming a lot sooner than you think. Solid-state batteries, meaning no liquid electrolyte, are the next big jump. These batteries won't be affected by temperature, will have longer life, and not be flammable. This combined with the next big chemistry shift, which looks like Li-Sulfur, will result in batteries that are cheaper, lighter, carry more charge (like 4x+ of todays), and last longer.

Here's the timetable I'm predicting:
2017 200mi range $30k
2020 200mi range price equivalent to comparable gas car
2030 400mi range cheaper than equivalent gas car

With battery and autonomous driving tech improving so rapidly, I think we're about to see some fundamental shifts in ground transportation in the next 10-15 years. That's pretty exciting, given that its an aspect of everyone's life that hasn't changed much in the last 100 years.

Until they come up with a method of fully charging within 5 to 10 minutes, they will not be usable to take on trips. Some people travel like once a month 500 miles or more, and everyone needs to go on a driving vacation though the southwest. It's just impractical.

This is why I say the future is in hydrogen.

(02-17-2015 12:24 PM)geosnooker2000 Wrote:  Until they come up with a method of fully charging within 5 to 10 minutes, they will not be usable to take on trips. Some people travel like once a month 500 miles or more, and everyone needs to go on a driving vacation though the southwest. It's just impractical.

This is why I say the future is in hydrogen.

I don't see hydrogen as ever being viable for cars.

First is getting it. The cheapest way is to reform natural gas. Which is fine, but it will never be as cheap as electricity. You can split it from water via hydrolysis either with electricity or solar directly, but both are really inefficient... so again, never price comparable to electricity.

Second is storing it. In order to get 200 or 300 miles out of a hydrogen car, you need to store the hydrogen at around 10,000PSI or more. A tank like that, in a harsh environment like a car, will need to be inspected at least annually. This also means that you need to compress it to above this level to refuel, making this something you can't feasibly do in your garage. So you're tied to a gas station model. Once you've driven an EV for a month or so, you never want to return to this model.

Third is using it. Converting hydrogen to electricity is currently (and likely forever will be) an expensive proposition. The higher the rate you need to convert at (to support cruising down the interstate) the bigger and more expensive that part gets. The conversion also doesn't throttle quickly. For both of those reasons it requires an energy storage buffer (batteries or capacitors) to allow the conversion to happen at steady rates, while the car consumes that energy at unsteady rates. Those need to be sized to support the power for acceleration and the energy for the time you need it.

When you step back, you have a system that contains all the parts of an EV, plus a bunch of parts to support the hydrogen. It just doesn't make any sense when batteries get to the price that 200-300 mile range EVs are price comparable to gas cars.

Tesla showed off battery swapping that took less time than a gas fill-up, but I think recharging could get to the 10 minute range too. Some batteries today can take that rate of charge, the problem becomes how to deliver that amount of electricity safely. That's a lot of power. I also think that a 10 minute gas stop is somewhat unrealistic. I've don't think I've ever stopped for 10 minutes at a gas station during a roadtrip. The truth is EVs don't need to compete with how long it takes to drain and fill your gas tank, but how long it takes to fill and drain your bladder.

(09-16-2014 11:07 AM)SublimeKnight Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 10:22 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:  I don't have a full electric but I do have a honda civic hybrid. It gets over 500 miles to the tank. I didn't get it for the environment but I bought it cause I save hundreds a month on gas that would go to line the pockets of some rich douche that's a tax subsidized oil tycoon or some wealthy Arab state that most likely funnels the same money to Hezbollah or Hamas.

I have a LEAF and the environment has never been a reason why. Top reason was economics. In GA I get a huge income tax credit. Second was because I'm a huge geek. The idea that all that electrical energy, to go 80+ miles, can be stored in a reversible way is totally sci-fi when you think about it. Third was, like you said, any little thing I can do to go against the oil/gas industry. Nothing good going on around oil.

The funny thing is that while these all still apply, the top reasons I'd get another are different. First is surprisingly, convenience. Not going to a gas station, ever, is really nice. We still have a gas car for long trips, but that's my wife's problem. Never needing to work in a trip to a gas station, even if it's two or three times a month, is great. Having a "gas station" in my garage turns out to be really convenient. Second is the "luxury" of the ride. Perfectly smooth acceleration, dead silent, instant response.

Just curious, but what has charging that thing in your garage done to your electricity bills?

(03-05-2015 11:17 PM)subflea Wrote:  Just curious, but what has charging that thing in your garage done to your electricity bills?

Short answer is nothing. My downstairs AC went out around the time I got it and we replaced it with a more efficient heat pump. The changes that made to my electric bill were much bigger.

To give you an exact answer, electricity where I live is about 12 cents a kWh. I average about 4 miles per kWh, so 3 cents a mile. To go 1000 miles in a month would cost about $30 in electricity. I do about half my charging at work, so you can understand how $15/month could get hidden in normal up and down fluctuations of an electric bill.