(09-12-2014 09:21 PM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:10 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  How about bias toward a school named after a city not a state?

No school in the SEC, PAC, B1G and B12 are named after a city. Only in the ACC, AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC do you find "city" schools.

Auburn, AL

University of California LOS ANGELES

Also, University of California Berkeley.

(09-12-2014 11:09 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 10:54 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:04 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  That's just precious.

That's just pompous.

Is it any more pompous than taking out a full page ad in the paper to brag about a win and call out another in state team all out of desperation for the locals to care about you?

Aggy's one to talk about desperation and calling out in-state teams. Even in your beloved SEC, you all are still obsessed with the "sips."

(09-12-2014 11:39 PM)Pervis_Griffith Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

So wait a second ....

The Big Ten, who apparently has the richest television deal of all the conferences with their own network, NEEDS 7 home games because of money??

That doesn't make any sense.

If anything, because of the riches the Big Ten Network provides, it should be EASIER for Big Ten schools to play only 6 home games a year ... or accommodate neutral site games like the one proposed in this thread in Soldier Field.



.

And the P5 wants to play just P5 teams, and still get 7+ homes games for everyone. Just how exactly do they plan on accomplishing that? Imaginary numbers?

How much is an extra home game worth if half the tickets go unsold?

(09-13-2014 12:57 AM)BoiseStateOfMind Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 11:09 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 10:54 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:04 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  That's just precious.

That's just pompous.

Is it any more pompous than taking out a full page ad in the paper to brag about a win and call out another in state team all out of desperation for the locals to care about you?

Aggy's one to talk about desperation and calling out in-state teams. Even in your beloved SEC, you all are still obsessed with the "sips."

You're right! It's OUR coach and AD that won't shut up about the series every time they talk the media....oh no wait, that's UT!

(09-12-2014 08:23 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Directional isn't so much a negative when your state has over 10 million people.

Northern Illinois
Central Florida
Southern California
East Carolina

It's when you have a smaller state it hurts more.

Eastern Kentucky
SE Missouri State

In which direction would I go to travel "central?"

(09-13-2014 09:53 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 08:23 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Directional isn't so much a negative when your state has over 10 million people.

Northern Illinois
Central Florida
Southern California
East Carolina

It's when you have a smaller state it hurts more.

Eastern Kentucky
SE Missouri State

In which direction would I go to travel "central?"

It depends on where you are.

(09-13-2014 12:57 AM)BoiseStateOfMind Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 11:09 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 10:54 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:04 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  That's just precious.

That's just pompous.

Is it any more pompous than taking out a full page ad in the paper to brag about a win and call out another in state team all out of desperation for the locals to care about you?

Aggy's one to talk about desperation and calling out in-state teams. Even in your beloved SEC, you all are still obsessed with the "sips."

I have noticed that too. If the SEC is so great (and it is), then why do A&M keep talking about the BIG 12?

Move on and Let It Go!

(09-12-2014 11:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:09 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 08:16 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 05:18 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  You do realize that CMU and UB are two different schools, right? UB isn't even the best state school in the state, nor is it the most well known public school in the state.

To be fair most people don't know that Cornell is part public. Outside of them I think it is pretty much a wash for the largest SUNY centers. Buffalo is at least a fair sized city with pro teams so I actually give it an edge over the other centers such as Albany or Binghamton.

Nobody in NY cares about Buffalo, and Army is far and away the most well-known public (albeit federal) school in NY. It isn't even close.

Oh you are going to go with Army? Army is not a NY school it is more like most private schools where it is a school located in a state but not representative of it.

That said I like Army but most people do not connect Army with NY football. I think with NY you need to actually consider its unique decision on college athletics and how schools are used in a state with how you want to say which is the most well known.

So which school are you going with? Part of Cornell, a SUNY school, or a CUNY school?

Army isn't private. It's a public school located in NY state. That's a fact.

Most people don't connect Buffalo with NY football, either. Syracuse is the only BCS team in the state, and far and away the most popular team in the state, flowed by ND (if I had to guess), then PSU, then Rutgers, then *maybe* Buffalo (with a very real possibility of Army).

As for academic, Cornell Ag is probably the best public school in the state. It's ranked #1 in it's field and widely respected beyond it's the narrow confines of agriculture (Cornell's very highly rated undergraduate business school is housed in Ag).

Nothing that I've said is even remotely controversial.

Well considering Syracuse is private, ditto ND, PSU is out of state, as is Rutgers, that means you agree with me Buffalo could very well be the most popular NY public school in the state for football (Army is Federal).

Now I am not arguing that it is some huge number as I do agree that those other schools are ahead in numbers in the rest of NY but in the limited scope of the question (most well known NY public institution) they may very well be number one (look at their actual competition for this question).

Cornell is the best institution in the state that is partially NY funded but many do not realize that it is partly public (thus limiting the numbers that would answer with them) and it is hard to separate the two in the public eye. For instance your example of the agriculture school. You say it is number 1 and that is great except normally we wouldn't say a school is more well known for its agricultural school alone as we typically go with the whole package. What makes it confusing is that since many programs are private at Cornell it is probably impossible to separate in people's minds how to think of the university using just the public funded programs. Unless you are from some other IVY school in which case you do it all the time to mock poor Cornell.

(09-13-2014 12:58 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 11:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:09 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 08:16 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  To be fair most people don't know that Cornell is part public. Outside of them I think it is pretty much a wash for the largest SUNY centers. Buffalo is at least a fair sized city with pro teams so I actually give it an edge over the other centers such as Albany or Binghamton.

Nobody in NY cares about Buffalo, and Army is far and away the most well-known public (albeit federal) school in NY. It isn't even close.

Oh you are going to go with Army? Army is not a NY school it is more like most private schools where it is a school located in a state but not representative of it.

That said I like Army but most people do not connect Army with NY football. I think with NY you need to actually consider its unique decision on college athletics and how schools are used in a state with how you want to say which is the most well known.

So which school are you going with? Part of Cornell, a SUNY school, or a CUNY school?

Army isn't private. It's a public school located in NY state. That's a fact.

Most people don't connect Buffalo with NY football, either. Syracuse is the only BCS team in the state, and far and away the most popular team in the state, flowed by ND (if I had to guess), then PSU, then Rutgers, then *maybe* Buffalo (with a very real possibility of Army).

As for academic, Cornell Ag is probably the best public school in the state. It's ranked #1 in it's field and widely respected beyond it's the narrow confines of agriculture (Cornell's very highly rated undergraduate business school is housed in Ag).

Nothing that I've said is even remotely controversial.

Well considering Syracuse is private, ditto ND, PSU is out of state, as is Rutgers, that means you agree with me Buffalo could very well be the most popular NY public school in the state for football (Army is Federal).

Now I am not arguing that it is some huge number as I do agree that those other schools are ahead in numbers in the rest of NY but in the limited scope of the question (most well known NY public institution) they may very well be number one (look at their actual competition for this question).

Cornell is the best institution in the state that is partially NY funded but many do not realize that it is partly public (thus limiting the numbers that would answer with them) and it is hard to separate the two in the public eye. For instance your example of the agriculture school. You say it is number 1 and that is great except normally we wouldn't say a school is more well known for its agricultural school alone as we typically go with the whole package. What makes it confusing is that since many programs are private at Cornell it is probably impossible to separate in people's minds how to think of the university using just the public funded programs. Unless you are from some other IVY school in which case you do it all the time to mock poor Cornell.

Yes, if you cherry pick every public school more popular than Buffalo, and ignore the private schools more popular than Buffalo, Buffalo is the most popular school in NY. Similarly, if you ignore every school other than Syracuse, SU is the most popular school in Alabama. However, that doesn't mean anything. I'm not holding my breath for a SEC invite. The fact of the matter is that Buffalo is A. not the most popular public school located in NYS, and B) not the most popular public school in terms of following in the state of NY. Those are facts, and, unlike you, I don't have to arbitrarily exclude schools or cherry-pick data to twist any facts to make my point.

Even then, there's a strong argument that UAlbany and Stony Brook are more popular (it's hard to tell, though because they're both in very different regions than Buffalo).

As for your rambling about Cornell's Ag school not being public enough, well the state of NY disagrees (as do NY residents). Cornell's public colleges are absolutely public. Feel free to ask the fans of any of the other IVY's. They like to remind us. We don't hide it, though. Heck, ILR even has the state of NY in its official name, which is very prominently displayed on its building which is located right smack in the middle of campus. Anyway, I said "best." SUNY Buffalo is the safety school to schools that are safety schools to Cornell. Buffalo is not better than any of the stat colleges imbedded in Cornell. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

Once again, unlike you, I'm not making any caveats or twisting definitions, and nothing I've said is controversial in any way. SUNY Buffalo isn't a big fish, no matter how badly you want it to be.

(09-13-2014 02:11 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-13-2014 12:58 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 11:52 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:09 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:03 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Nobody in NY cares about Buffalo, and Army is far and away the most well-known public (albeit federal) school in NY. It isn't even close.

Oh you are going to go with Army? Army is not a NY school it is more like most private schools where it is a school located in a state but not representative of it.

That said I like Army but most people do not connect Army with NY football. I think with NY you need to actually consider its unique decision on college athletics and how schools are used in a state with how you want to say which is the most well known.

So which school are you going with? Part of Cornell, a SUNY school, or a CUNY school?

Army isn't private. It's a public school located in NY state. That's a fact.

Most people don't connect Buffalo with NY football, either. Syracuse is the only BCS team in the state, and far and away the most popular team in the state, flowed by ND (if I had to guess), then PSU, then Rutgers, then *maybe* Buffalo (with a very real possibility of Army).

As for academic, Cornell Ag is probably the best public school in the state. It's ranked #1 in it's field and widely respected beyond it's the narrow confines of agriculture (Cornell's very highly rated undergraduate business school is housed in Ag).

Nothing that I've said is even remotely controversial.

Well considering Syracuse is private, ditto ND, PSU is out of state, as is Rutgers, that means you agree with me Buffalo could very well be the most popular NY public school in the state for football (Army is Federal).

Now I am not arguing that it is some huge number as I do agree that those other schools are ahead in numbers in the rest of NY but in the limited scope of the question (most well known NY public institution) they may very well be number one (look at their actual competition for this question).

Cornell is the best institution in the state that is partially NY funded but many do not realize that it is partly public (thus limiting the numbers that would answer with them) and it is hard to separate the two in the public eye. For instance your example of the agriculture school. You say it is number 1 and that is great except normally we wouldn't say a school is more well known for its agricultural school alone as we typically go with the whole package. What makes it confusing is that since many programs are private at Cornell it is probably impossible to separate in people's minds how to think of the university using just the public funded programs. Unless you are from some other IVY school in which case you do it all the time to mock poor Cornell.

Yes, if you cherry pick every public school more popular than Buffalo, and ignore the private schools more popular than Buffalo, Buffalo is the most popular school in NY. Similarly, if you ignore every school other than Syracuse, SU is the most popular school in Alabama. However, that doesn't mean anything. I'm not holding my breath for a SEC invite. The fact of the matter is that Buffalo is A. not the most popular public school located in NYS, and B) not the most popular public school in terms of following in the state of NY. Those are facts, and, unlike you, I don't have to arbitrarily exclude schools or cherry-pick data to twist any facts to make my point.

Even then, there's a strong argument that UAlbany and Stony Brook are more popular (it's hard to tell, though because they're both in very different regions than Buffalo).

As for your rambling about Cornell's Ag school not being public enough, well the state of NY disagrees (as do NY residents). Cornell's public colleges are absolutely public. Feel free to ask the fans of any of the other IVY's. They like to remind us. We don't hide it, though. Heck, ILR even has the state of NY in its official name, which is very prominently displayed on its building which is located right smack in the middle of campus. Anyway, I said "best." SUNY Buffalo is the safety school to schools that are safety schools to Cornell. Buffalo is not better than any of the stat colleges imbedded in Cornell. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

Once again, unlike you, I'm not making any caveats or twisting definitions, and nothing I've said is controversial in any way. SUNY Buffalo isn't a big fish, no matter how badly you want it to be.

No its called you keep ignoring the question because you have some axe to grind against Buffalo or something.

The question was about NY public schools. Syracuse, Army (Federal), Penn State, Rutgers, and Notre Dame do not count towards this question because they are not a NY public school. Just so you don't miss it...

ALL OF THOSE SCHOOLS HAVE HIGHER FAN INTEREST IN THE STATE OF NY BY AND LARGE THAN BUFFALO.

That said none of them answer the question so yes ignoring the wrong answers yes I can come to that conclusion. Granted I am not a Buffalo fan. I lived in the Binghaton area so for me if I wanted to uplift a SUNY school it would be Binghatmon but even so I know that Buffalo is far ahead of them in the sports column and football is one reason why.

And yes I know Cornell is public I live near there but you are absolutely nuts if you think most people even in state know that. Most people think that Cornell is private full stop. There are a great many people that do not know that Cornell is the state land grant. As for Buffalo being the back up school it is very common in the NE to treat any public school as a back up almost no matter how good it is. It is how the NE treats schools in general but even so that does not mean it is actually something that should be true. Many of the SUNY schools, even the smaller ones, are in fact very good academic institutions but are not always well known outside of the state due to a lack advertising them and that the NE does not treat them with the respect many deserve.

I admit that Buffalo kind of wins be default on this question because there just isn't much competition yet for this sort of thing in the state public systems. Heck the state of NY seemed dead set against schools doing major sports for a very long time despite having the resources to do so.

(09-13-2014 04:08 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  No its called you keep ignoring the question because you have some axe to grind against Buffalo or something.

The question was about NY public schools. Syracuse, Army (Federal), Penn State, Rutgers, and Notre Dame do not count towards this question because they are not a NY public school. Just so you don't miss it...

ALL OF THOSE SCHOOLS HAVE HIGHER FAN INTEREST IN THE STATE OF NY BY AND LARGE THAN BUFFALO.

That said none of them answer the question so yes ignoring the wrong answers yes I can come to that conclusion. Granted I am not a Buffalo fan. I lived in the Binghaton area so for me if I wanted to uplift a SUNY school it would be Binghatmon but even so I know that Buffalo is far ahead of them in the sports column and football is one reason why.

And yes I know Cornell is public I live near there but you are absolutely nuts if you think most people even in state know that. Most people think that Cornell is private full stop. There are a great many people that do not know that Cornell is the state land grant. As for Buffalo being the back up school it is very common in the NE to treat any public school as a back up almost no matter how good it is. It is how the NE treats schools in general but even so that does not mean it is actually something that should be true. Many of the SUNY schools, even the smaller ones, are in fact very good academic institutions but are not always well known outside of the state due to a lack advertising them and that the NE does not treat them with the respect many deserve.

I admit that Buffalo kind of wins be default on this question because there just isn't much competition yet for this sort of thing in the state public systems. Heck the state of NY seemed dead set against schools doing major sports for a very long time despite having the resources to do so.

You are absolutely 100% delusional. My original comment was:

"You do realize that CMU and UB are two different schools, right? UB isn't even the best state school in the state, nor is it the most well known public school in the state."

and it was in response to this:

"[A] CMU victory over Syracuse tomorrow can allow UB to claim the state (Syracuse and Army)"

Nowhere in that did I throw in the bunch of arbitrary qualifications (that were very clearly cherry picked) that you are currently demanding. In fact, the poster before me (the guy to whom I was responding) even mentioned Syracuse (private) and Army (Public - Federal), so your entire theory that Army shouldn't be included when I mentioned "public school in the state" is astoundingly perplexing. As for your question (which I did answer), it is both stupid and irrelevant.

Fact One:
Army is public
Fact Two:
Army is the best known public school in NY State
Fact Three:
Cornell's 3 statutory colleges are public.
Fact Four:
Cornell's 3 statutory colleges are better than UB.
Fact Five:
Cornell (and its 3 stat colleges) are in NYS.
Fact Six:
UB is in NYS
Therefore:
1. UB isn't even the best state school in the state (see facts 3, 4, 5, and 6)
And 2. UB is not the most well known public school in the state (see facts 1, 2, 6)

Another way of saying those two conclusions is "UB isn't even the best state school in the state, nor is it the most well known public school in the state," which is what I originally said and has been my point all along. I freely added that other schools (i.e. PSU, RU, SU, and ND) have bigger followings in the state, but that is neither false, nor a detraction from my original point. In fact, it enhances the spirit of my original point, which was that UB is not a power in NYS.

Everything that you said to the contrary is laughably misguided (i.e. few people in NYS know Cornell is partially public <-- this is also 100% irrelevant) and/or a shameless lie (i.e. accusing me of ignoring your question after I answered it clearly) and/or irrelevant (i.e. the fact that Army is funded by the federal government and UB is funded by NY state government).

You clearly have a half-baked anti-Syracuse/anti-common sense bias. My only beef against Buffalo is that their fans tend to have a laughably over-inflated sense of self-worth (see this thread), as do MAC fans in general (see this thread).

When did an article about NIU and Illinois turn into a debate between schools in New York?

(09-13-2014 09:38 PM)nbcards Wrote:  When did an article about NIU and Illinois turn into a debate between schools in New York?

It happened when someone decided that MAC membership might make SUNY at Buffalo the premier school in New York. Then it was escalated when someone believe the initial poster and concocted a bunch of half-baked arguments in support of him.

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

NIU's stadium is too small to schedule teams like Illinois, and Wisconsin.

(09-15-2014 03:01 PM)chess Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

NIU's stadium is too small to schedule teams like Illinois, and Wisconsin.

While that may be true it is big enough for Utah, Maryland, Boston College, BYU, Kansas

(09-12-2014 09:32 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:19 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:17 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:04 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

Play them in Chicago at Soldier Field like Iowa did. That would take away all the excuses. There'd also be a bigger crowd there than in Champagne.

The Big Ten is also requiring everyone to play one 1 P5 non-conference opponent per year. In essence, after we get done with our already scheduled series with USF and UConn, we (and effectively everyone else in the Big Ten) won't be scheduling any further G5 teams away from our home stadiums. As I've stated, every Big Ten team will now only have 1 non-conference road game per 2 years to use going forward (for better or worse, we all MUST have 7 home games per year for financial purposes - there's no use arguing about it), and when we also need to schedule another P5 school, you can do the math that the home-and-home (or even home-neutral) series is going to that P5 school.

Big Ten should schedule all 12 games against themselves to conceal how crappy of a conference they are becoming. That's really the smartest thing for them to do. But if you must schedule a game or two OOC, scheduling against another P5 conference is like an automatic loss tacked on to each Big Ten team's record to start the year.
.

That might be true that we'll lose a lot of non-conference games, but despite fans' beliefs/wishes, athletic departments don't schedule games for bluster or pride. It's largely about money. When one school is begging for a game and the other doesn't care, that shows you where the off-the-field scheduling power lies regardless of the results on-the-field. If NIU wants to schedule a one-and-done game in Champaign, just as they scheduled a one-and-done game in Evanston against Northwestern, then Illinois will certainly take that phone call. We're just absolutely not traveling to DeKalb or even Soldier Field to play NIU. And I say that as someone that likes NIU - they're my favorite G5 team and my wife is getting her Ed.D there right now. Objectively, there's no reason for Illinois or Northwestern to actually travel there, though. None.

I really do believe that conferences should start playing everyone within their conference and completely eliminate playing programs outside of your conference during the regular season.

There is no need for money games if you are in a P-5 league. This also eliminates who is the better conference during the regular season which isn't even necessary now that a playoff exists. This would also put more value in the bowl games because bragging rights for all conferences would be at stake.

(09-12-2014 11:17 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:17 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:04 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

Play them in Chicago at Soldier Field like Iowa did. That would take away all the excuses. There'd also be a bigger crowd there than in Champagne.

The Big Ten is also requiring everyone to play one 1 P5 non-conference opponent per year. In essence, after we get done with our already scheduled series with USF and UConn, we (and effectively everyone else in the Big Ten) won't be scheduling any further G5 teams away from our home stadiums. As I've stated, every Big Ten team will now only have 1 non-conference road game per 2 years to use going forward (for better or worse, we all MUST have 7 home games per year for financial purposes - there's no use arguing about it), and when we also need to schedule another P5 school, you can do the math that the home-and-home (or even home-neutral) series is going to that P5 school.

NIU just last month scheduled a 1-1 with Maryland.

Yeah...don't listen to the man behind the curtain.

Big Ten (and others) will still schedule home-homes with anyone...just like how Mizzou just signed a series with UCONN...and Stanford and Maryland signed series with UCF.

(09-15-2014 03:01 PM)chess Wrote:  

(09-12-2014 09:02 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The Illini will certainly pick up the phone if NIU wants to play a game in Champaign (and we've done that a couple of times with NIU over the past decade). We're absolutely not using the 1 non-conference road game that we have every 2 years (which is the financial reality when the Big Ten goes to 9 conference games per year) traveling to DeKalb, though. That's a financial non-starter.

NIU's stadium is too small to schedule teams like Illinois, and Wisconsin.

Yes too small for Wisconsin, but not too small for a school such as the Illini