I posted this in another thread, sorry for the duplicate, thought it deserved its own.

Can we stop grouping FCS schools together as "another FCS school"? Yes, CMU squeaked by an FCS team so I know I sound like an apologist. But Chattanooga is supposed to make a run this year after finished 8-4 last year. We as a conference struggle for respect, yet we are complete hypocrites and do it to FCS schools by saying they are just an FCS team.

2007 MAC Champs CMU - murdered by NDSU
2013 (maybe 2012) NIU - squeaks by EIU
2013 CMU (6-6) - squeaks by New Hampshire (made it to FCS semis)

Just some notable examples. Sorry for the rant but it's annoying. FCS teams beat MAC teams every single year. CMU escaped 20-16 against a good FCS team.

Oh would you just stop? You sound so insecure. CMU was down 16-0 at halftime. They played atrociously coming out of the gates. But they still won. Stop trying to justify your team's crappy play.

MAC teams lose to FCS opponents almost every year. We're aware of the FCS. Enough.

(08-29-2014 10:10 AM)george14 Wrote:  I posted this in another thread, sorry for the duplicate, thought it deserved its own.

Can we stop grouping FCS schools together as "another FCS school"? Yes, CMU squeaked by an FCS team so I know I sound like an apologist. But Chattanooga is supposed to make a run this year after finished 8-4 last year. We as a conference struggle for respect, yet we are complete hypocrites and do it to FCS schools by saying they are just an FCS team.

2007 MAC Champs CMU - murdered by NDSU
2013 (maybe 2012) NIU - squeaks by EIU
2013 CMU (6-6) - squeaks by New Hampshire (made it to FCS semis)

Just some notable examples. Sorry for the rant but it's annoying. FCS teams beat MAC teams every single year. CMU escaped 20-16 against a good FCS team.

I think the MAC actually had one year recently where that didn't happen.

But you're wrong about the hypocrisy.

FCS, by definition, is a lower level than FBS. They offer fewer scholarships, and usually lower overall budgets. Ergo, MAC fans have every legitimate expectation that FBS teams should beat FCS teams.

In fact, it's healthy. Fans should drive their administrations to compete well if they're going to be in Div I/FBS sports. Beating FCS teams is a good benchmark to gauge a team's soundness (especially since they're home games)

The one stickler to this is that FCS teams can let FBS transfers play immediately. That has led some teams to use this as a strategy to pick up good players previously recruited by very good FBS teams, and build good 1st string talent.

Nevertheless, MAC teams know all of this, and should be fielding programs that can win against FCS teams.

Just win, baby.

Didn't Toledo (didn't make a bowl game) swat Eastern Washington (FCS powerhouse) last year? Sure, struggling isn't a death sentence, but it's certainly not a good sign.

(08-29-2014 10:25 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  I think the MAC actually had one year recently where that didn't happen.

But you're wrong about the hypocrisy.

FCS, by definition, is a lower level than FBS. They offer fewer scholarships, and usually lower overall budgets. Ergo, MAC fans have every legitimate expectation that FBS teams should beat FCS teams.

In fact, it's healthy. Fans should drive their administrations to compete well if they're going to be in Div I/FBS sports. Beating FCS teams is a good benchmark to gauge a team's soundness (especially since they're home games)

The one stickler to this is that FCS teams can let FBS transfers play immediately. That has led some teams to use this as a strategy to pick up good players previously recruited by very good FBS teams, and build good 1st string talent.

Nevertheless, MAC teams know all of this, and should be fielding programs that can win against FCS teams.

I don't see how the scholarship thing makes a difference in terms of on the field production. The point is, if you can play you can play. So EMU WMU UMass should have an expectation to beat the top FCS teams? Give me a break, they would get slaughtered.

You missed my point though. The P5 conferences look at MAC teams and if they have a loss or close win, we were "just another MAC school". Do you think that's fair? I personally don't because the MAC has had multiple ranked teams in recent memory who have beaten some damn good squads. Don't do it to FCS schools.

(08-29-2014 10:25 AM)ColinApocalypse Wrote:  Oh would you just stop? You sound so insecure. CMU was down 16-0 at halftime. They played atrociously coming out of the gates. But they still won. Stop trying to justify your team's crappy play.

MAC teams lose to FCS opponents almost every year. We're aware of the FCS. Enough.

Insecure?

Like a team who just had their entire last seasons win total matched by CMU in about 3 hours? K, I am insecure.

(08-29-2014 10:31 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 10:25 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  I think the MAC actually had one year recently where that didn't happen.

But you're wrong about the hypocrisy.

FCS, by definition, is a lower level than FBS. They offer fewer scholarships, and usually lower overall budgets. Ergo, MAC fans have every legitimate expectation that FBS teams should beat FCS teams.

In fact, it's healthy. Fans should drive their administrations to compete well if they're going to be in Div I/FBS sports. Beating FCS teams is a good benchmark to gauge a team's soundness (especially since they're home games)

The one stickler to this is that FCS teams can let FBS transfers play immediately. That has led some teams to use this as a strategy to pick up good players previously recruited by very good FBS teams, and build good 1st string talent.

Nevertheless, MAC teams know all of this, and should be fielding programs that can win against FCS teams.

I don't see how the scholarship thing makes a difference in terms of on the field production.

Then you might want to take a few years to follow college football.

Quote:You missed my point though.

No, I disagreed with it.

(08-29-2014 10:25 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Just win, baby.

"baby" being the operative word...

(08-29-2014 10:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  No, I disagreed with it.

No, you did not. You pointed out that we "should" have an expectation to beat an FCS team which has fewer scholarships. Alright.

My point was not to group them together and ignore the top teams. I don't see where you disagreed, you just ignored my point about the top FCS teams being very good.

Purdue (BIG10) did not expect to beat NIU (MAC) last year because they sucked and neither did Vegas since NIU was the favorite. Is that a clear enough example for you? I have more if need be.

How is it hypocrisy?

Before telling MAC fans to stop being hypocritical in expecting that their team ought to be favored to beat an FCS team ... please explain how its hypocritical. I'm not seeing how its an example of "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

(08-29-2014 10:57 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 10:39 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  No, I disagreed with it.

No, you did not. You pointed out that we "should" have an expectation to beat an FCS team which has fewer scholarships. Alright.

My point was not to group them together and ignore the top teams.

Dumb point.

Clear enough for you?

FCS is FCS. That is the extent of it.

(08-29-2014 11:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  How is it hypocrisy?

Before telling MAC fans to stop being hypocritical in expecting that their team ought to be favored to beat an FCS team ... please explain how its hypocritical. I'm not seeing how its an example of "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Because most MAC fans get upset when let's say BIG10 teams group as as just another MAC team. When in reality, teams of the past like CMU NIU Miami etc have beaten mid level BIG10 teams.

So my point was to say don't group all of FCS together because its stupid and MAC fans hate it when others do it to us.

UTC is not a top FCS contender.Barely made the Top 25 last season, didn't make the playoffs. Preseason ranked 14-17th depending on the poll.
CMU was horrible against a team that would be towards the bottom of the FBS. Not to say things can't be fixed for the Chips, but the last night's performance was bad MAC FB. Anybody that says otherwise doesn't know FB or is rationalizing because they can't deal with the reality. Thank goodness for CMU and the MAC managed to escape with a win.

No MAC team should get slaughtered against an FCS team except maybe UMASS and thats because they are still relatively an infant. If EMU, CMU, etc etc etc has a problem beating even the "best" FCS teams, then that IS a serious problem. Every MAC school has the same amount of scholarships to fill, more than FCS, its up to them HOW and WHO to go for. The FCS teams have to do the same with less.

(08-29-2014 11:43 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 11:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  How is it hypocrisy?

Before telling MAC fans to stop being hypocritical in expecting that their team ought to be favored to beat an FCS team ... please explain how its hypocritical. I'm not seeing how its an example of "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Because most MAC fans get upset when let's say BIG10 teams group as as just another MAC team. When in reality, teams of the past like CMU NIU Miami etc have beaten mid level BIG10 teams.

So my point was to say don't group all of FCS together because its stupid and MAC fans hate it when others do it to us.

Did you know that the MAC and the B1G are actually in the same league? Its called FBS. It means we have the same limits and parameters. Chattanooga is in the FCS which is a completely different league with completely different limits and parameters. Did you know that FBS and FCS are different? Because it doesn't sound like you do or you wouldn't be struggling to make this analogy that doesn't work.

(08-29-2014 12:04 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 11:43 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 11:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  How is it hypocrisy?

Before telling MAC fans to stop being hypocritical in expecting that their team ought to be favored to beat an FCS team ... please explain how its hypocritical. I'm not seeing how its an example of "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Because most MAC fans get upset when let's say BIG10 teams group as as just another MAC team. When in reality, teams of the past like CMU NIU Miami etc have beaten mid level BIG10 teams.

So my point was to say don't group all of FCS together because its stupid and MAC fans hate it when others do it to us.

Did you know that the MAC and the B1G are actually in the same league? Its called FBS. It means we have the same limits and parameters. Chattanooga is in the FCS which is a completely different league with completely different limits and parameters. Did you know that FBS and FCS are different? Because it doesn't sound like you do or you wouldn't be struggling to make this analogy that doesn't work.

I completely understand it, my point was the top teams are very good and would beat many MAC teams. You don't think EIU would have beaten many MAC teams last year? NDSU? A lot of those teams would.

It's a bad thing, an embarrassment, for a MAC school to lose to any FCS school, no matter how good they may be in a given season. It is not good for that MAC program or the conference. Do it often enough, and that coach will be looking or work elsewhere.

Likewise, it's a bad thing, an embarrassment, for a Big Ten (i.e. P5) school to lose to any MAC (i.e. G5) school, no matter how good they may be in a given season. It is not good for that Big Ten program or the conference. Do it often enough, and that coach will be looking or work elsewhere.

There aren't two levels here. There are more.

(08-29-2014 12:04 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 11:43 AM)george14 Wrote:  

(08-29-2014 11:24 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  How is it hypocrisy?

Before telling MAC fans to stop being hypocritical in expecting that their team ought to be favored to beat an FCS team ... please explain how its hypocritical. I'm not seeing how its an example of "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Because most MAC fans get upset when let's say BIG10 teams group as as just another MAC team. When in reality, teams of the past like CMU NIU Miami etc have beaten mid level BIG10 teams.

So my point was to say don't group all of FCS together because its stupid and MAC fans hate it when others do it to us.

Did you know that the MAC and the B1G are actually in the same league? Its called FBS. It means we have the same limits and parameters. Chattanooga is in the FCS which is a completely different league with completely different limits and parameters. Did you know that FBS and FCS are different? Because it doesn't sound like you do or you wouldn't be struggling to make this analogy that doesn't work.

MAC and B1G are in the same league but there are decades worth of inertia in the favor of the B1G teams in prestige, game atmosphere, money, and media attention, and that is continually reinforced by the media. So we are still at a significant disadvantage even though we get the same number of scholarships. Fewer scholarships doesn't mean the FCS team can't field 22 very good players and have a decent chance of upsetting an FBS team, if they're one of the best FCS teams.

Bottom line, CMU may have played a crummy game (not the first time that's happened in the first game of the year) but they got the win.