Hundreds if not thousands of posts, comments, judgments, both for and against the validity of Liberty being a FBS member in the SB have been made on this board. The public vs. private debate, the biased assertions, and the many examples of past rhetoric, many justified by past LU leaders, have all given anti LU rooters a sound foundation to not extend an FBS invite.

An interesting theme has become into focus with these comments. LU has been deemed unfit due to their online success (which any school would gladly love to have), their controversial stances and positions on social issues, and lastly, their financial success.

So if comments made by many on this board are valid of this "financial fear", and if college Prez and ADs share this sentiment, then LU will have a very difficult time, if ever, being accepted into the FBS. So will LU stand pat and allow others to continue to enjoy what they crave. I think not.

Previous posts have mentioned LU challenging the NCAA rule requiring an invite. Others have stated they believe LU will enlists others not deemed worthy of an invite to join them. LU will take the lead whether others tag along or not. How long will LU wait for an invite? 2015, 2016 maybe 2017 at the latest.

LU should continue to develop their brand for who and what they are. Most academic leaders live in a protective bubble insulated from real world challenges. They tend to be idealistic rather than realistic which is great for creativity and can be unproductive for sound business decisions. The moniker of what is best for the football student athlete is comical but a fall back statement often made by college execs. College Prez and Ads can operate in their insulated towers and make their claims about the student athletes but everyone knows it's about the revenue stream.

LU has yet to make the FCS playoffs and has been knocking on the door for years without success. There is little to date to have their past on field performance warrant a move up. The flip side is this is a hungry program with the resources, facilities and leadership to succeed. They have a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.

So LU, with their financial success, brand and university/online perception, has only one choice. Sue the NCAA to become an independent. They'll benefit more in the long run playing higher quality FBS opponents as an independent rather than statewide, low level FBS teams or regional SB teams with limited appeal beyond their geographical footprint.

(08-26-2014 09:25 PM)Newetimes Wrote:  Hundreds if not thousands of posts, comments, judgments, both for and against the validity of Liberty being a FBS member in the SB have been made on this board. The public vs. private debate, the biased assertions, and the many examples of past rhetoric, many justified by past LU leaders, have all given anti LU rooters a sound foundation to not extend an FBS invite.

An interesting theme has become into focus with these comments. LU has been deemed unfit due to their online success (which any school would gladly love to have), their controversial stances and positions on social issues, and lastly, their financial success.

So if comments made by many on this board are valid of this "financial fear", and if college Prez and ADs share this sentiment, then LU will have a very difficult time, if ever, being accepted into the FBS. So will LU stand pat and allow others to continue to enjoy what they crave. I think not.

Previous posts have mentioned LU challenging the NCAA rule requiring an invite. Others have stated they believe LU will enlists others not deemed worthy of an invite to join them. LU will take the lead whether others tag along or not. How long will LU wait for an invite? 2015, 2016 maybe 2017 at the latest.

LU should continue to develop their brand for who and what they are. Most academic leaders live in a protective bubble insulated from real world challenges. They tend to be idealistic rather than realistic which is great for creativity and can be unproductive for sound business decisions. The moniker of what is best for the football student athlete is comical but a fall back statement often made by college execs. College Prez and Ads can operate in their insulated towers and make their claims about the student athletes but everyone knows it's about the revenue stream.

LU has yet to make the FCS playoffs and has been knocking on the door for years without success. There is little to date to have their past on field performance warrant a move up. The flip side is this is a hungry program with the resources, facilities and leadership to succeed. They have a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.

So LU, with their financial success, brand and university/online perception, has only one choice. Sue the NCAA to become an independent. They'll benefit more in the long run playing higher quality FBS opponents as an independent rather than statewide, low level FBS teams or regional SB teams with limited appeal beyond their geographical footprint.

I think Liberty will wait until the SBC has added a 12th member before they make that jump.

As it is, there is still a chance that the SBC will cave and invite them, and all of this posturing would be pointless. Though as the links to Missouri State and Eastern Kentucky continue, one has to wonder if the SBC is even still discussing the Flames.

If it was any other school, i'd be inclined to agree... but it's liberty, the school that alienates more college presidents than every other FBS school combined.

Um, yeah, litigation is the answer! Sue 'em for antitrust!

That's how all those USFL owners got their franchises into the NFL, right?

Even if Liberty sues their way in, who can they get to come to Lynchburg? The one FCS team usually isn't an issue, but that leaves a minimum of four more home games to find each year.

(08-27-2014 05:41 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  Even if Liberty sues their way in, who can they get to come to Lynchburg? The one FCS team usually isn't an issue, but that leaves a minimum of four more home games to find each year.

Old Dominion would be there in a flash. Charlotte would be right behind them along with App St.

I gather from articles I've read that Liberty desires to be to Evangelical Christians what BYU is to Mormons and what Notre Dame is to Catholics...

So, if that is what their desire is, then isn't FBS independence REALLY where they see themselves? I mean, BYU and Notre Dame are both FBS independents.

Right now there's no path to FBS independence (I guess it could be argued that the path to FBS independence is to get invited to a FBS conference and then leave the conference, but that's not reasonable, is it?) so perhaps the OP is onto something.

If push comes to shove and Liberty finds a way in, I think they may find some schools willing to play them, especially at Liberty.

If Liberty were independent, I think the schools that would be willing to play at Liberty are:
ODU (current AD likes LU)
App State (would play because LU is regional and they can recruit in VA)
Charlotte (see App)
Baylor (religious-based school)
Wake (like LU in that they're a small private school)
Army (LU is a military-friendly school http://www.liberty.edu/online/military-students/)
Navy (see Army)
Air Force (see Army)
UMass (might be a Independent soon)
Some MAC schools?
Some AAC schools (Temple or ECU maybe?)

If they only need a minimum of 4 home games as an FBS member, I think it may be more doable than most people realize.

(08-26-2014 09:25 PM)Newetimes Wrote:  So LU, with their financial success, brand and university/online perception, has only one choice. Sue the NCAA to become an independent. They'll benefit more in the long run playing higher quality FBS opponents as an independent rather than statewide, low level FBS teams or regional SB teams with limited appeal beyond their geographical footprint.

What financial success are you talking about? Liberty has a $58 million endowment. That's low even for an FCS team.

If Liberty were in FBS it would be one of the least financially secure schools at that level of football.

I think Liberty could challenge the "must have an invite" but I'm not sure that winning helps them dramatically.

Under the old NCAA rules, you could simply elect FBS membership if you met the attendance or stadium/attendance standard. Prior to "must have an invite" a school wishing to reclassify had to establish via either signed contracts, or some similar substitute (memo of understanding, or letter of intent) that they had adequate games secured against FBS opponents for the next four years to be allowed to reclassify. This was an enforcement headache for the NCAA. A game would get shifted to another year or the contract bought out and the school would have to update the information and the NCAA was faced with whether a waiver would be permitted since the change in schedule wasn't their fault if they were unable to secure a replacement.

The NCAA's membership standards related to scheduling are almost certainly enforceable because it is reasonable to protect the brand of FBS by expecting members to schedule at a certain standard. That standard being: You will play a minimum of 8 FBS opponents out of the 12 games you may play in regular season. At least five games will be at home, and of those five at least four will be FBS teams and at least one will be a high scholarship FCS (or you can simply play a fifth FBS).

So while I think Liberty can prevail against the "must invite" rule the NCAA will still be able to require them to show that at least for a number of upcoming seasons that they agreements in each year to play 8 FBS teams, five home games vs FBS or four vs FBS with one high scholarship FCS.

The challenge for Liberty is finding those willing teams. Presumably that would be easier than convincing 9 of 11 Sun Belt members to accept them as a full member, or convincing 9 of 12 MAC schools or convicing 11 of 14 CUSA schools, but it would still be a challenge.

They wouldn't have huge trouble finding enough games. I know UAB would consider scheduling them.

(08-27-2014 07:53 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  If push comes to shove and Liberty finds a way in, I think they may find some schools willing to play them, especially at Liberty.

If Liberty were independent, I think the schools that would be willing to play at Liberty are:
ODU (current AD likes LU)
App State (would play because LU is regional and they can recruit in VA)
Charlotte (see App)
Baylor (religious-based school)
Wake (like LU in that they're a small private school)
Army (LU is a military-friendly school http://www.liberty.edu/online/military-students/)
Navy (see Army)
Air Force (see Army)
UMass (might be a Independent soon)
Some MAC schools?
Some AAC schools (Temple or ECU maybe?)

If they only need a minimum of 4 home games as an FBS member, I think it may be more doable than most people realize.

I think you over state Liberty's attractiveness as a destination.

Wake/Navy/AF have zero reason to travel to Liberty.
Army only because as an independent, they need games

If BYU has a hard time filling a home schedule, Liberty will have a major chore.

Notre Dame can pull it off because they are Notre Dame
Army can pull it off because they are Army

Navy is rejecting Indy life for the AAC.

(08-27-2014 07:53 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  If push comes to shove and Liberty finds a way in, I think they may find some schools willing to play them, especially at Liberty.

If Liberty were independent, I think the schools that would be willing to play at Liberty are:
ODU (current AD likes LU)
App State (would play because LU is regional and they can recruit in VA)
Charlotte (see App)
Baylor (religious-based school)
Wake (like LU in that they're a small private school)
Army (LU is a military-friendly school http://www.liberty.edu/online/military-students/)
Navy (see Army)
Air Force (see Army)
UMass (might be a Independent soon)
Some MAC schools?
Some AAC schools (Temple or ECU maybe?)

If they only need a minimum of 4 home games as an FBS member, I think it may be more doable than most people realize.

Scratch Air Force off that list. Doesn't fit their scheduling ideas

Some schools might have no problem scheduling them, but they can forget home games. Someone mentioned ODU, Charlotte, and Appy...no way are they sending their schools there if it's not intra-conference. Even before Liberty started knocking on the FBS door, they were trying for SoCon and CAAF, who wouldn't even bother with them. Heck, it's possible this push for FBS is because they hit their ceiling in FCS with Big South.

Personally? I think Liberty should sue. The system sucks. It's biased. You have programs that are very much ready to participate at the level, but who get passed over for political reasons or other issues that favor other institutions because of their location, regardless of readiness. Liberty's got everything it needs, except a program and conference in FBS who wants to support them. Only a short time ago, we were somewhat close to having schools in a major conference subsidizing a program like Villanova who didn't even have a clue how to run at the FBS level, let alone whether they even WANTED to be there. The doors open for the likes of 'Nova, but they keep well bolted for Liberty. It isn't right.

And I'm not a Liberty fan. I understand why Liberty is getting the block, and I can't disagree with some of the logic, but the system simply fails when programs are at the ready but can't find the support while others who need major help are thrusted on through.

(08-27-2014 02:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  And I'm not a Liberty fan. I understand why Liberty is getting the block, and I can't disagree with some of the logic, but the system simply fails when programs are at the ready but can't find the support while others who need major help are thrusted on through.

Liberty is not "getting the block" any more than UMass or James Madison or anyone else. No conference is forced to accept members it doesn't want, or to accept more members than they want. If the MAC, for example, only wants 12 members, should someone be able to force them to have 14 or 16 or 20 just to accommodate schools that are in FCS but want to be in FBS? No way.

(08-27-2014 02:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Some schools might have no problem scheduling them, but they can forget home games. Someone mentioned ODU, Charlotte, and Appy...no way are they sending their schools there if it's not intra-conference. Even before Liberty started knocking on the FBS door, they were trying for SoCon and CAAF, who wouldn't even bother with them. Heck, it's possible this push for FBS is because they hit their ceiling in FCS with Big South.

Personally? I think Liberty should sue. The system sucks. It's biased. You have programs that are very much ready to participate at the level, but who get passed over for political reasons or other issues that favor other institutions because of their location, regardless of readiness. Liberty's got everything it needs, except a program and conference in FBS who wants to support them. Only a short time ago, we were somewhat close to having schools in a major conference subsidizing a program like Villanova who didn't even have a clue how to run at the FBS level, let alone whether they even WANTED to be there. The doors open for the likes of 'Nova, but they keep well bolted for Liberty. It isn't right.

And I'm not a Liberty fan. I understand why Liberty is getting the block, and I can't disagree with some of the logic, but the system simply fails when programs are at the ready but can't find the support while others who need major help are thrusted on through.

I'm not following you.

You think they should sue (as I've said before, there is a less restrictive alternative, show us you've got the game's scheduled).

But then you say they can't get home games.

I don't think any court is likely to rule that NCAA saying you must play 60% of games against FBS to call yourself FBS is unreasonable nor would they think it be unreasonable for the NCAA to say if you are FBS you need to play at least 41% of your schedule at home and at least 80% of those games at home vs. other FBS.

If you don't think they can assemble the schedule, suing is pointless because it is unlikely the schedule requirements will be over-turned.

@arkstfan, the "show us you've got the games scheduled" model is an interesting idea, but it would be extremely difficult to pull off due to schools scheduling years in advance. Schools generally schedule based off of preferences. For example, Miami (Fla.) scheduling preference is 1 FCS game, 1 marquee game and 2 winnable FBS games.

If Liberty's FBS status is in doubt beforehand, a school like Miami (for example) would pass because they would already have their 1 FCS game already scheduled. In other words, Liberty's status would need to be known beforehand before schools consider doing a contract.

With all that said, Liberty's best bet would be to find other FCS schools, preferably 4 more schools that desire the same aspirations. All of schools would be independent, but they would agree to schedule one another. This would take care of the minimum 4 FBS games rule.

(08-27-2014 03:27 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  @arkstfan, the "show us you've got the games scheduled" model is an interesting idea, but it would be extremely difficult to pull off due to schools scheduling years in advance. Schools generally schedule based off of preferences. For example, Miami (Fla.) scheduling preference is 1 FCS game, 1 marquee game and 2 winnable FBS games.

If Liberty's FBS status is in doubt beforehand, a school like Miami (for example) would pass because they would already have their 1 FCS game already scheduled. In other words, Liberty's status would need to be known beforehand before schools consider doing a contract.

With all that said, Liberty's best bet would be to find other FCS schools, preferably 4 more schools that desire the same aspirations. All of schools would be independent, but they would agree to schedule one another. This would take care of the minimum 4 FBS games rule.

U MASS if independent would be a plus. (For Liberty)
The SBC is supposed to eventually want 12 all sports members.
That means Idaho and maybe NMSU would be independent.
That also means UALR and UTA will either add football or find a new conference.

Seven independents would mean only one FBS home game would be needed. They could not form a conference but it could work.

Jacksonville State in Alabama wants FBS.
The SBC probably won't consider them too close to Atlanta third team in Alabama.

NDSU has no real options unless BSC is allowed to move up.
No existing conference will invite them even though they are worthy.

SDSU or Youngstown State or Northern Iowa.

The schools could include home games as part of their Olympic sports conferences media deal.

A group of schools might join a lawsuit with them as their only chance. Having some independent schools would make it easier.

(08-27-2014 02:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(08-27-2014 02:12 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  And I'm not a Liberty fan. I understand why Liberty is getting the block, and I can't disagree with some of the logic, but the system simply fails when programs are at the ready but can't find the support while others who need major help are thrusted on through.

Liberty is not "getting the block" any more than UMass or James Madison or anyone else. No conference is forced to accept members it doesn't want, or to accept more members than they want. If the MAC, for example, only wants 12 members, should someone be able to force them to have 14 or 16 or 20 just to accommodate schools that are in FCS but want to be in FBS? No way.

I don't believe a program should have to have a conference invitation in order to join FBS. If a school wants to incur that risk, so be it. That's why I'm fine with them suing...challenge the biased rules that keeps the doors wide open for fickle, anemic, or unprepared programs while ready ones can't get a bite.

And Liberty is private...so whatever happens to them isn't nearly as destructive to the tax payer as what could happen at UMass.

(08-27-2014 03:27 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  @arkstfan, the "show us you've got the games scheduled" model is an interesting idea, but it would be extremely difficult to pull off due to schools scheduling years in advance. Schools generally schedule based off of preferences. For example, Miami (Fla.) scheduling preference is 1 FCS game, 1 marquee game and 2 winnable FBS games.

If Liberty's FBS status is in doubt beforehand, a school like Miami (for example) would pass because they would already have their 1 FCS game already scheduled. In other words, Liberty's status would need to be known beforehand before schools consider doing a contract.

With all that said, Liberty's best bet would be to find other FCS schools, preferably 4 more schools that desire the same aspirations. All of schools would be independent, but they would agree to schedule one another. This would take care of the minimum 4 FBS games rule.

AState moved up under the old rules. We announced in the late fall early winter of 1989 and were reclassified I-A for the 1992 season and for it to be official we had to submit by June of 1992 schedules showing we met requirements for 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995.

The thing is we ended up not playing several of the games that were on the 1993, 94 or 95 schedules because we joined the Big West.

Not that crazy of a requirement. We did it, UAB, Akron, La.Tech, ULM, UCF, USF, UConn, Marshall, Middle Tenn St, Troy, North Texas, Idaho, Boise State, Nevada, and Buffalo all did it. Off the top of my head nine of us did it as independents. UAB was a full member of CUSA except football and the league made them complete the process of moving to I-A outside of the conference and didn't invite them to join until after it was done, they ended up playing as an independent for a time.