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MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #101
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 09:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Is this MAC contract the last nail in the coffin for JMU moving up to FBS? The Sunbelt opportunity has passed, CUSA has too many members as it is (considering the CFP only pays the G5 for 12 teams) and the MAC has no reason to expand now. When UMass was thrown out of the MAC there no longer was an odd number of schools that may have left an opening for JMU. Now with this long term contract would the MAC really want to open it up again to add 2 teams like JMU and Delaware?

I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.
08-21-2014 12:19 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #102
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 09:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Is this MAC contract the last nail in the coffin for JMU moving up to FBS? The Sunbelt opportunity has passed, CUSA has too many members as it is (considering the CFP only pays the G5 for 12 teams) and the MAC has no reason to expand now. When UMass was thrown out of the MAC there no longer was an odd number of schools that may have left an opening for JMU. Now with this long term contract would the MAC really want to open it up again to add 2 teams like JMU and Delaware?

I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.

Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.
08-21-2014 01:11 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #103
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 01:11 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 09:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Is this MAC contract the last nail in the coffin for JMU moving up to FBS? The Sunbelt opportunity has passed, CUSA has too many members as it is (considering the CFP only pays the G5 for 12 teams) and the MAC has no reason to expand now. When UMass was thrown out of the MAC there no longer was an odd number of schools that may have left an opening for JMU. Now with this long term contract would the MAC really want to open it up again to add 2 teams like JMU and Delaware?

I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.

Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.

Show me this in writing and then I'l believe you.
08-21-2014 05:10 AM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #104
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 01:11 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 09:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Is this MAC contract the last nail in the coffin for JMU moving up to FBS? The Sunbelt opportunity has passed, CUSA has too many members as it is (considering the CFP only pays the G5 for 12 teams) and the MAC has no reason to expand now. When UMass was thrown out of the MAC there no longer was an odd number of schools that may have left an opening for JMU. Now with this long term contract would the MAC really want to open it up again to add 2 teams like JMU and Delaware?

I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.

Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.

No, that 12 team rule was decided upon by the G5 themselves. And it is just to allocate the money among themselves. Changing it doesn't change the G5 pool. It merely reallocates it.
08-21-2014 08:15 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #105
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 08:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-21-2014 01:11 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.

Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.

No, that 12 team rule was decided upon by the G5 themselves. And it is just to allocate the money among themselves. Changing it doesn't change the G5 pool. It merely reallocates it.

The G5 pool is a fixed percentage from the CFP. What the G5 decided to do is give $1 million per team/per conference up to 12 teams. The rest of the money is divided for performance tiers and the Access Bowl. The extra $2 million could be allocated by taking some $$ from the performance tier and the Access Bowl spot reward.
But the point of limiting to $12/conference was to incentivized conferences to not expand just to get more CFP $$.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 09:04 AM by MWC Tex.)
08-21-2014 09:01 AM
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Underdog Offline
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Post: #106
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
This was a bad deal for the MAC in my opinion. $1 mil per school should have been the minimum. The MAC should have offered to play even more weeknight games because that’s its marketing niche—MACtion. As the weeknight games increase, so does the $$$. Maybe a game before Monday night football, Tuesday, Wednesday, a game before Thursday night football…. That is the only way I think the MAC could have gotten more $$$. Moreover, it’s the only way that it can compete in a B10 dominated market and get the most exposure for the conference in my opinion.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 11:15 AM by Underdog.)
08-21-2014 10:54 AM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #107
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
While the Group of 5 might be able to collectively decide that you receive more for having more than 12 members, the total money going to them wouldn't change and thus no conference that is not going above 12 would agree (as they'd lose money). Right now, there is no reason for 4 of the 5 conferences to vote to end it.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 10:58 AM by ohio1317.)
08-21-2014 10:58 AM
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Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Offline
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Post: #108
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
JMU and Delaware would get invitations only if ESPN decided it was worth it to them to increase the TV payout enough to add value to the other MAC schools similar to Rutgers and Maryland with the Big Ten.

However, this deal tells me that ESPN didn't value UMass football and their market to offer more money otherwise the MAC wouldn't have cut them free.

UMass doesn't add value.


.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 11:10 AM by Miami (Oh) Yeah !.)
08-21-2014 11:07 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #109
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.
Either by making the per team amount a smaller number or by taking money away from the Tier 2 and/or Tier 3 payouts.

There's some flex built into the current arrangement, to avoid having to renegotiate for each and every realignment. For instance, when Navy joins the AAC and it goes to 12 in FB, that will come out of the "conference ladder" pool. If the Sunbelt were to invite UMass FB-only and add $1m to the CFP payout that the Sunbelt receives, that's where that $1m would come from as well.

The ranking ladder pool being based on what's over after the Tier 1 payments and the payment to the conference that sends a school to the Access Bowl is why there are no hard-and-fast breakdowns of that pool, just estimates.

But that is flexibility that is already in place under the current agreement: changing the cap would require renegotiating the CFP distribution agreement.

As far as the assumption that its "no big deal" to renegotiate the framework, remember that assumption is convenient for those who like to play fantasy conference realignment, because it makes expansions to 14 (or higher) more likely which makes realignment more likely which makes the fantasy seem more realistic, which, it would appear, adds to the fun factor of the fantasy.

(08-21-2014 01:11 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.
The CFP doesn't much care how the Go5 distribute the pool of money they are being given, so long as there is an agreement in place for how its done. The Go5 cannot increase the total amount, but it can change the amount that goes in the Tier1 distribution of $1m per school up to 12 schools per conference ... as long as there is agreement on the change.

(08-21-2014 10:54 AM)Underdog Wrote:  This was a bad deal for the MAC in my opinion. $1 mil per school should have been the minimum. The MAC should have offered to play even more weeknight games because that’s its marketing niche—MACtion. As the weeknight games increase, so does the $$$. Maybe a game before Monday night football, Tuesday, Wednesday, a game before Thursday night football…. That is the only way I think the MAC could have gotten more $$$.
Sure, 5x what they were getting before is a bad deal, because they should have got 6x what they were getting before, at a minimum ... because sports forum speculative media rights negotiations is always easier than real world media rights negotiation, and always has more money on the table that likely wasn't ever there in the real world.

It seems likely that the reason there is a market value for the midweek MAC November games is that other conference that are willing to do midweek games earlier in the season balk at doing them in November. Indeed, the greater their attendance, the more ticket sales a Northern school sacrifices for late season evening games period, on top of the greater monetary sacrifice from any midweek game.

It seems highly likely that there would be substantial diminishing returns from either more November midweek games (since two per night Tuesday and Wednesday is what ESPN wants), or from October midweek games (since ESPN has more October midweek inventory available), and given the downsides of midweek games, it makes sense to only do the ones that ESPN is willing to suitably reward the MAC for ... where the value of #MACtion games is part of the increase in value to $10m/yr in the 2017/18 - 2026/27 time frame.

And the rest of the value is adding ESPN3 inventory, where the lack of channel constraints means that ESPN3 content, especially for BBall, is "auto-regionalizing", and there is no opportunity cost downside to making MAC-produced content available on ESPN3 alongside any other ESPN3 BBall content going on at the same time, so long as it is suitable quality.

But its only ESPN with its bargaining leverage and massive inventory of streaming product that is in a position to monetize streaming sports through ISP carriage fees, so its not like there is going to be a lot of competing bids for that content ... a likely reason for ESPN being willing to assign a useful value to those rights is to prevent the emergence of a rival that is in the position to play the same game.
(This post was last modified: 08-21-2014 01:59 PM by BruceMcF.)
08-21-2014 01:37 PM
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emu steve Offline
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Post: #110
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
I've been (trying) to follow the CFP payout to the G5 conferences.

Is the amount set approximately based on EXPECTED revenues, rather than hard numbers?

If so, do we believe the revenue expectations were exceeded for year one of CFP? (CFP year one seems to have exceeded expectations).
01-13-2015 12:26 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #111
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(01-13-2015 12:26 PM)emu steve Wrote:  I've been (trying) to follow the CFP payout to the G5 conferences.

Is the amount set approximately based on EXPECTED revenues, rather than hard numbers?

If so, do we believe the revenue expectations were exceeded for year one of CFP? (CFP year one seems to have exceeded expectations).

The CFP money comes from a TV deal. The payouts from the TV deal are spread out over 12 years with escalator increases year by year.

The distribution of money for the G5 also has elevators which range from $86 million to about $120 million at the end of the contract. The only variable that is fixed is each G5 conference receives 12 million of it with the remainder split in 5-4-3-2-1 share fashion depending on how competitive they were that season. This does not include academic support money, another 300,000 per school that goes to every FBS school.

There is a variability of money going to the CFP bowls themselves depending on how well they draw and local pricing for that particular bowl. Individual schools may do better or worse on selling their ticket allotments. None of this however is a factor in the how much the G5 takes home as a group from the system.
01-15-2015 10:03 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #112
RE: MAC and ESPN sign 13 year deal
(08-21-2014 01:11 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-21-2014 12:19 AM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 11:05 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(08-20-2014 09:52 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  Is this MAC contract the last nail in the coffin for JMU moving up to FBS? The Sunbelt opportunity has passed, CUSA has too many members as it is (considering the CFP only pays the G5 for 12 teams) and the MAC has no reason to expand now. When UMass was thrown out of the MAC there no longer was an odd number of schools that may have left an opening for JMU. Now with this long term contract would the MAC really want to open it up again to add 2 teams like JMU and Delaware?

I wonder if legal concerns will cause the CFP to eliminate the $12 million "cap" on the payout to G5 conferences.

In the Liberty thread, we were talking about whether Liberty (or, I suppose, James Madison) might challenge the NCAA rule that requires an FCS program to secure an invitation to join an FBS conference before moving up to FBS. There are good reasons for that rule, but maybe Liberty or JMU could argue that the CFP is blocking the way out of FCS by incentivizing G5 conferences to not expand. That argument would be worthless to Liberty or JMU, however, until/unless the Sun Belt adds a 12th football team such as UMass. At that point, the door to FBS would pretty much be closed and locked -- if you buy the argument that the cap on G5 payouts effectively blocks further G5 expansion.

12 teams/12 million was not set by the CFP. It was decided upon by the G5 and can be dissolved at any time.

Now if something in the landscape were to happen and MWC added BYU/UTEP while the AAC added Army/ODU which brought both conferences to 14 teams maybe the G5 would have enough votes to up the threshold to 14 teams/14 million.

If it can be dissolved at any time, where is the extra $2 million dollars going to come from? Maybe the G5 agreed to it in negotiations with the CFP but I doubt they can dissolve it without approval.

Right, the cap of $12 million per G5 league is something that the CFP would have to remove. The G5 conferences can't unilaterally grant themselves more CFP money. If they could unilaterally take as much as they want, they would give themselves a helluva lot more than $12 or 14 million per year.

The G5 wouldn't be granting themselves more money. They would just be changing the way the 85 million granted to the G5 by the CFP is distributed. Currently 85 mi,lion is divided into 3 separate pools. The first pool (60 million) is divided evenly between the conferences. The second pool, (6 million) goes to the conference that supplies the G5 access bowl. The other pool (about 19 million) is allocated based upon the performance of each conference.

So changing the amount evenly distributed by the conferences just would mean the access bowl winner pool or the performance pool distributions would be smaller.
01-15-2015 10:35 PM
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