A coach of a public university can say a prayer before a game, your playing time does not reflect whether or not you took part in said prayer. This is just offseason downtime IMHO.

Some people are against the wars overseas, at a state championship baseball game they had a moment of silence for our fallen soldiers. What if that offended somebody, should they start yelling MURDERERS during the moment of silence for our troops. If violence goes against their religion, should a state championship baseball game be ALLOWED to have a moment of silence for fallen soldiers? Might offend somebody...

People get offended by EVERYTHING in this day and age, want to start talking about Cops and their rights to ask for a drivers license? This is not Nazi Germany and there is no gun to these players head to pray, just team bonding / unity before a big game. If you do not want to pray, putting your hand on a teammates shoulder and having a moment of silence will not hurt you. There is NOBODY forcing you to pray, just people TRYING to make a mountain out of a molehill....AKA offseason downtime.

(06-06-2015 09:00 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-06-2015 08:08 PM)owen Wrote:  Umm.
Yes.
I was talking about feelings.
Think this is all going over your head.

It's been a very civil conversation.

I was trying rouse the rabbles.

(06-07-2015 09:21 AM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  1) A coach of a public university can say a prayer before a game,

2) your playing time does not reflect whether or not you took part in said prayer. This is just offseason downtime IMHO.

1) A coach can say a personal prayer, of that there is no conflict. This is not what the discussion has been about.


2) Fortunately we have laws to protect us in case you're wrong in that absolute assessment that no authority figures would use non-participation in a religious rite as a hammer, agreed? Unfortunately, it does exist.

You would agree it would be wrong for a coach to purposely or even inadvertently coerce a player into a religious rite not of their belief or faith, right? You feel it's not a big deal for a player not of that faith to just join in as a moment of silence. You would also not have any objection to your own child being expected to do that? Earlier Redwingtom brought up the analogy of a teacher leading a class in a Muslim prayer. You would have no objection to a teacher telling your kid, just kneel on the rug in silence? That would offend not only you but those of that faith for your child to pretend.


I would disagree that something so large in the country's consciousness that there are many presentations to the Supreme Court regarding it, would be considered off-season downtime. I imagine we are in agreement on those other things?

(06-07-2015 11:46 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 09:21 AM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  1) A coach of a public university can say a prayer before a game,

2) your playing time does not reflect whether or not you took part in said prayer. This is just offseason downtime IMHO.

1) A coach can say a personal prayer, of that there is no conflict. This is not what the discussion has been about.


2) Fortunately we have laws to protect us in case you're wrong in that absolute assessment that no authority figures would use non-participation in a religious rite as a hammer, agreed? Unfortunately, it does exist.

You would agree it would be wrong for a coach to purposely or even inadvertently coerce a player into a religious rite not of their belief or faith, right? You feel it's not a big deal for a player not of that faith to just join in as a moment of silence. You would also not have any objection to your own child being expected to do that? Earlier Redwingtom brought up the analogy of a teacher leading a class in a Muslim prayer. You would have no objection to a teacher telling your kid, just kneel on the rug in silence? That would offend not only you but those of that faith for your child to pretend.


I would disagree that something so large in the country's consciousness that there are many presentations to the Supreme Court regarding it, would be considered off-season downtime. I imagine we are in agreement on those other things?

1. AND a coach can say a Public Prayer with his team before a game (secular or nonsecular). That is what this discussion is about.

2. I'm glad we have those laws, if it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that a coach benched or canceled the scholarship of a player BECAUSE of his religion, that coach should be FIRED because he crossed the line.

3. Diversity is good thing, my kids have been exposed to numerous religions, no problems on my part. From my post earlier when I said "I went up to coach Campbell and complimented him on his faith based advocacy. He and I do not share the same religion but I still respect the Faith, Family and Football culture he is incorporating at Toledo."

Congress starts out with prayer, Senate Starts out with prayer, The President of the United States being sworn in has prayer, the Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments within eyesight, "In God we Trust", etc. Mountain out of a molehill IMHO. MUCH bigger issues in our society than people PRAYING for health, safety, The Lords Prayer, Shemoneh Esreh or the Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem.

I went to St. Francis and would be considered an outsider because of my faith and I actually enjoyed learning about Christianity and OTHER religions during class. In college I had a African American Islamic roommate, a white Jewish roommate, an Asian Buddhist roommate and a white Atheist for roommates. I guess I took that as a glass half full and learned about different cultures...some people might of requested a room change.

(06-07-2015 12:09 PM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 11:46 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 09:21 AM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  1) A coach of a public university can say a prayer before a game,

2) your playing time does not reflect whether or not you took part in said prayer. This is just offseason downtime IMHO.

1) A coach can say a personal prayer, of that there is no conflict. This is not what the discussion has been about.


2) Fortunately we have laws to protect us in case you're wrong in that absolute assessment that no authority figures would use non-participation in a religious rite as a hammer, agreed? Unfortunately, it does exist.

You would agree it would be wrong for a coach to purposely or even inadvertently coerce a player into a religious rite not of their belief or faith, right?

1. AND a coach can say a Public Prayer with his team before a game (secular or nonsecular). That is what this discussion is about.

2. I'm glad we have those laws, if it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that a coach benched or canceled the scholarship of a player BECAUSE of his religion, that coach should be FIRED because he crossed the line.

3. Diversity is good thing,

1) The topic being discussed is about the coach LEADING the prayer, not having, not saying with.... "leading," calling players in to prayer. That's the topic addressed by the complaint and by the law.

Quote:2) You would agree it would be wrong for a coach to purposely or even inadvertently coerce a player into a religious rite not of their belief or faith, right?

So, in general we seem to agree but if there's no law to protect us from what you have said would be wrong to do, what recourse would we have?

3) I like cultures too and whole heartedly agree there is growth through exposure to diversity. Fortunately still my choice to expose myself to those things without being forced to practice them. Are you implying Coach's goal was to provide a diverse environment to bond his players? Curious that he chose his own religion and religious practice in order to do that.

I suppose that argument is best left to Coach as to his reasoning. I would wonder after this discussion if he sees problem with his approach or has found something to reconsider or think on or would do it again exactly as he did.

For something that has drawn the attention of even duh'blah, hasn't he been kind of silent?

Enjoying diverse religious rites and having them forced upon you, two different things. All said, I'm glad law is not wrapped around my personal enjoyment as that could change.

(06-07-2015 06:11 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 05:16 AM)Aries_Rocket Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 04:38 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(06-07-2015 03:08 AM)Aries_Rocket Wrote:  

(06-06-2015 07:33 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  You're equating voluntarily attending a religious ceremony to being forced to pray before a football game?

You are assuming someone in the locker room is being forced to pray. Until someone comes forward, I won't make that assumption. The team may or may not have had a discussion.

Coaches, employers and others that have certain control over your future don't have to "force" you do do things. Because of the imbalance of power, people often do things they would not choose to do.

For this reason, it's unlikely any player would come forward as he could be thought of as "not a team player" and could lose playing time or his scholarship.

Why coaches think they should be having team prayers is beyond me.

You are making assumptions without any evidence. If a current player is afraid to come forward, why would a former palyer be afraid?

The law is intended to prevent a situation. Whether or not there is someone in the room that is intimidated is irrelevant, which is why those supporting the ruling have not argued that there factually are.

I'll use my previous analogy again, we have speed laws to prevent people being harmed by those that would speed and punish it when it happens. They are in place whether someone claims to be harmed by others speeding or not. They are in place as a preventative measure. We correct the speeders whether someone has been harmed or not.


Me personally, if my superiors, people who had my job in their hands invited me to participate in their religious ceremony, which was not mine, sacrilegious to mine, I'd have no problem politely declining. But I'd be foolish if I believed there are not people that would take offense and use that against me in the work place because I've been on that end of the stick, not joining in on something offensive not even to me but to those in MY charge, even explaining my reasoning and finding myself excluded and harassed endlessly, even angrily, red faced, table pounding ordered to comply by a representative of a VERY popular superior.

The law is a good thing. There are many ways for Coach to be directly involved in helping his charges bond that would avoid the potential for coercing someone to do something they found sacrilegious in order to retain their standing on the team.

Laws aside, what Coach did in this (OLD) video was not supportive of the very personal rites each might hold and he can do better.

You must work with some real ********. I'd rather someone be truthful about themselves so I could avoid them even if it meant finding a new job.. If someone didn't want me in their restaurant, I'd rather they refuse me service than to spit in my food.

(06-07-2015 12:09 PM)SeniorBearcat Wrote:  2. I'm glad we have those laws, if it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that a coach benched or canceled the scholarship of a player BECAUSE of his religion, that coach should be FIRED because he crossed the line.

I think the standard of proof should be "beyond a shadow of a doubt" for absolutely everything. That way, the sneakiest among us can live above the law!!!
Catch me if you can sucka!

(06-03-2015 03:11 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(06-03-2015 09:16 AM)Rocket75 Wrote:  The legal minds are telling the truth. What Campbell is doing is not in accordance with the law. He can teach the guys good values without invoking religion.

I am willing to bet that Coach Cullop did not have similar prayer sessions when Naama was playing.

They did and do.

Do your mean that while Naama was on the team, the team said The Lord's Prayer or some other obviously Christian prayer before games? That's very surprising. Maybe that explains why they never made the NCAAs. :) Why not something more generic like, "Let's have a moment of silence and pray that we play as well as we're capable and that both teams are free from injury."?