So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I think we should call the bluff of the P5 and not give them what they want. I am willing to bet that if the P5 left, there would be a class action lawsuit from the G5 that would tie this issue up in courts for years, if not a decade.
A judge would issue an order to keep status quo until the issues was settled.

Hard to believe that two or three Conference Commissioners have this much entitlement left in them. This autonomy push imo, is the last, gasp actions of old men thinking they still own the world.

All I can say is that goodness we signed our tv contract before this crap started. IMO, this all but seals the deal that Conference USA is going to have a much worse tv contract than they did before. Hard to believe that any network is going to want to sign a G5 league to anything other than peanuts until they see how autonomy is going to change the game of football.

I don't see how every G5 league survives in their present form.

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

No, from what's been said in the news and on this board if the autonomy vote was unsuccessful the P5 schools were threatening a break from the NCAA. Its the only other way they can get the monopoly they so crave.

I think most people would agree... Give them the monopoly. Then file an anti-trust type lawsuit. I don't think they can make a trade organization (what any college athletics governing body boils down to) without at least having stipulations for membership.

NCAA is pretty incompetent as it is. We have seen a ton of cases where they have been clueless. (Miami/ Nevin Shapiro)

I just don't see how them breaking off helps us either. If we are 2 separate organizations, we have no way of keeping up. With them in the NCAA, we might be able to adopt some of their policies.

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

So you'd rather the schools spend good money on paying lawyers to sue to be included in some sort of new system than have them keep the system we have, with a few tweaks that allow for some additional rules that anyone else can choose to follow. That's only a good deal for the lawyers.

(08-07-2014 03:55 PM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  I just don't see how them breaking off helps us either. If we are 2 separate organizations, we have no way of keeping up.

You don't have to keep up. You just have to carve out more market share than you have now, and keep more profits than you do now.

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

Excuse me, but I do not understand why you are asking me that quesion or your follow up comment.

All I said was I do not think the threat was leaving the NCAA, but more to forming a seperate division within the NCAA.

I may be wrong, but I do not recall hearing anyone in a position of authority with the P5 schools ever mention leaving the NCAA. However, I do recall several mentioning forming a new Division within the NCAA.

So when Invisiblehand mentioned them threatening to leave the NCAA.... my comment to Invivsiblehand was, I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA, but to form a new Division in the NCAA. So I do not know where you are coming from with your post.

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

(08-07-2014 07:26 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

This makes no sense. If they would not vote to give you autonomy lite...they would not vote to give you a whole new autonomous division.

(08-07-2014 07:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:26 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

This makes no sense. If they would not vote to give you autonomy lite...they would not vote to give you a whole new autonomous division.

The P5 could leave and create their own organization as well as their own basketball tournament. That would VASTLY decrease the value of the current NCAA tournament. That tournament, by the way subsidizes the dues of every member and covers the cost of every single championship in the NCAA--as well as all enforcement functions. The rest of the NCAA would likely grant the P5 their own division (assuming they stay with the rest if D1 in basketball) rather than destroy their golden goose that funds all of the NCAA.

Of course, if the rest of the NCAA dug in its heels, then the P5 could just leave. There is nothing the NCAA provides the P5 that couldnt be replicated at a MUCH lower cost by a new collegiate umbrella association. The NCAA needs the P5 more than the P5 needs the NCAA. Unlike some, I don't think the P5 could prevent other schools from joining the new organization---but the rules they operated under in the new organization could be tightly controlled by the P5.

(08-07-2014 02:24 PM)baruna falls Wrote:  I think we should call the bluff of the P5 and not give them what they want. I am willing to bet that if the P5 left, there would be a class action lawsuit from the G5 that would tie this issue up in courts for years, if not a decade.
A judge would issue an order to keep status quo until the issues was settled.

Hard to believe that two or three Conference Commissioners have this much entitlement left in them. This autonomy push imo, is the last, gasp actions of old men thinking they still own the world.

All I can say is that goodness we signed our tv contract before this crap started. IMO, this all but seals the deal that Conference USA is going to have a much worse tv contract than they did before. Hard to believe that any network is going to want to sign a G5 league to anything other than peanuts until they see how autonomy is going to change the game of football.

I don't see how every G5 league survives in their present form.

Totally agree with you. Call their bluff and let them break away. This has gotten ridiculous. Senator Orrin Hatch says things have gone too far and anti trust laws could be in play. I agree. Our conference needs to fight this crap or demand to be included in the Power leagues.

We just have to keep fighting. The big conferences are losing the public support with moves like this. Everyone sees it for what it is, more of a money/power grab designed to keep every school outside of their club from achieving anything close to a level playing field.

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

The short answer is, yes. However, the only realistic possibility of success in such a move would be to demand a complete split with the p5. That would place the p5 in a position to choose between two alternatives: (1) maintaining the status quo in football while sharing basketball tournament revenue as opposed to (2) retention of all their football revenue while being forced out of the Division I basketball tourney. Despite all the ranting about football revenue 'driving the bus,' March Madness is still the largest revenue source for the NCAA and its member schools. The whole autonomy issue is motivated by greed and greedy people don't give up a major revenue stream without a fight.

If non-p5 conferences strive to gain inclusion but the p5 fail to admit them and fail to establish a clear path for inclusion, it provides them recourse against the p5 under anti-trust law. It appears their public support of the new governance model is a strategic move by the non-p5 conferences.

(08-07-2014 07:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:26 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:10 PM)invisiblehand Wrote:  So, wouldn't it better for the leagues to let the P5 have to go through with their threats to leave the NCAA than complicity vote to allow them autonomy?

I mean if our schools support this politically won't they lose any sort of a legal case they might have for inclusion into the upper level?

I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

This makes no sense. If they would not vote to give you autonomy lite...they would not vote to give you a whole new autonomous division.

Once the p5 pulls out of Division I, there is not a need to seek approval from Division I in order to establish a new division. That discussion is restricted to the p5 and NCAA only. You would be correct if the non-p5 conferences had a vote. However, they would not have voting privileges in such a move.

I wonder how many people have read this.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...14%204.pdf

(08-07-2014 07:46 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:26 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

This makes no sense. If they would not vote to give you autonomy lite...they would not vote to give you a whole new autonomous division.

The P5 could leave and create their own organization as well as their own basketball tournament. That would VASTLY decrease the value of the current NCAA tournament. That tournament, by the way subsidizes the dues of every member and covers the cost of every single championship in the NCAA--as well as all enforcement functions. The rest of the NCAA would likely grant the P5 their own division (assuming they stay with the rest if D1 in basketball) rather than destroy their golden goose that funds all of the NCAA.

Of course, if the rest of the NCAA dug in its heels, then the P5 could just leave. There is nothing the NCAA provides the P5 that couldnt be replicated at a MUCH lower cost by a new collegiate umbrella association. The NCAA needs the P5 more than the P5 needs the NCAA. Unlike some, I don't think the P5 could prevent other schools from joining the new organization---but the rules they operated under in the new organization could be tightly controlled by the P5.

Let's assume the p5 leave and create their own basketball tournament. There are only 65 teams in the new division. Feasibly they could sustain a 16-team tournament. That's about the same as the tourney from the 1950's. On the other hand, Division I would still consist of 280(+/-) teams. They could easily maintain their tourney in its current format of 68 teams.

Realistically the p5, even with their "blue bloods," could put on quite a show but it would merely serve to whet the appetite of basketball nation. On the flip side, you can watch March Madness with high quality competition including the 'Cinderella' teams. The names at the top may change after the split but you get what might prove to be a 'shot in the arm.'

All the new teams making the tourney each year would be quite refreshing. More importantly, the media moguls still have March Madness to air every year. Division I could continue their tourney uninterrupted. Division IV would be interesting to watch the first few years but it could not sustain a comparable level of excitement necessary to glean major media contracts. Division I would ultimately win a battle against the much smaller p5 tourney.

(08-07-2014 07:46 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 07:26 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 03:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 02:57 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  I do not think the threat was to leave the NCAA....it was more about forming a new Division 4 within the NCAA.

Also, don't think there was much chance of a legal case anyway

How do you form a new division if you can't even get votes for autonomy?

You can't. That cartridge won't fire.

The NCAA does not have any control over a conference's decision to leave Division I. They do have control of the formation of a new division within the NCAA structure. The NCAA might not be happy with the p5 departing but they wouldn't hesitate to create a new division in order to retain affiliation with the p5 conferences. Past success of some of those member schools would drive their motivation to work with the p5 for name recognition among other benefits. The other Division I conferences would not have any voting power in such a move. That's how they could establish a new division despite the lack of necessary votes for autonomy.

This makes no sense. If they would not vote to give you autonomy lite...they would not vote to give you a whole new autonomous division.

The P5 could leave and create their own organization as well as their own basketball tournament. That would VASTLY decrease the value of the current NCAA tournament. That tournament, by the way subsidizes the dues of every member and covers the cost of every single championship in the NCAA--as well as all enforcement functions. The rest of the NCAA would likely grant the P5 their own division (assuming they stay with the rest if D1 in basketball) rather than destroy their golden goose that funds all of the NCAA.

Of course, if the rest of the NCAA dug in its heels, then the P5 could just leave. There is nothing the NCAA provides the P5 that couldnt be replicated at a MUCH lower cost by a new collegiate umbrella association. The NCAA needs the P5 more than the P5 needs the NCAA. Unlike some, I don't think the P5 could prevent other schools from joining the new organization---but the rules they operated under in the new organization could be tightly controlled by the P5.

We are assuming a situation where the P5 could not get autonomy. If the nuclear threat could not get them votes for even autonomy...it could not get them votes for something even harsher than autonomy.

(08-07-2014 08:44 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  We are assuming a situation where the P5 could not get autonomy. If the nuclear threat could not get them votes for even autonomy...it could not get them votes for something even harsher than autonomy.

Autonomy required a majority vote. Div I does not have a vote in the case of defection from the division of any members. Likewise, Div I does not have voting rights on the issue of the NCAA creating another division.

The p5 must first renounce membership in Div I before they could create a new division. The non-p5 surrender voting rights effective upon the defection of the p5 conferences. They do not regain voting rights by virtue of the creation of another division within the NCAA structure.

(08-07-2014 09:12 PM)shafted1 Wrote:  

(08-07-2014 08:44 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  We are assuming a situation where the P5 could not get autonomy. If the nuclear threat could not get them votes for even autonomy...it could not get them votes for something even harsher than autonomy.

Autonomy required a majority vote. Div I does not have a vote in the case of defection from the division of any members. Likewise, Div I does not have voting rights on the issue of the NCAA creating another division.

The p5 must first renounce membership in Div I before they could create a new division. The non-p5 surrender voting rights effective upon the defection of the p5 conferences. They do not regain voting rights by virtue of the creation of another division within the NCAA structure.

So...you are saying that any group of schools can just leave Division I and form a new division with no vote of the overall membership and start making their own rules for that new division? And the overall NCAA membership has to live with it?