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Spin Room Presidential Poll - Special Okie Edition Part 2
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
Res publica non dominetur
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Posts: 51,393
Joined: Feb 2002
Reputation: 2017
I Root For: GT, USCU, FU, WYO
Location: Upstate, SC

SkunkworksFolding@NCAAbbsNCAAbbs LUGCrappies
Post: #81
RE: Spin Room Presidential Poll - Special Okie Edition Part 2
(08-06-2014 08:02 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Re: 1
Again cut, cut, cut. And nowhere in anything you have shown me tells me where the federal government is going to get the money to do even the minimum amount of responsibilities the "Gubermint is evil" Libertarians like yourself admit they have to do. How are we going to pay for the minimalistic self defense force you Libertarians propose?


Re: 2
Most everybody out there readily admits there is waste in the defense budget. However, you example of "two engines for a single engine plane" fails to take in account that aircraft engines aren't indestructible. An aircraft without an engine is a lawn ornament and isn't protecting anyone.

Also bear in mind that much like the cost of prescription drugs the cost of military equipment goes towards development of better military equipment.

Re: 3
At no time in the entire history of our country have we had a totally open immigration policy. Even during the colonial days there were controls set on who came into the country. Since the Libertarians are for free markets then the market sets the wage. What happens when the flood of immigrants coming in drive wages down so far that more and more people are living in poverty? Oh yeah...I forgot....charity. What happens when that runs out?

Re: 4
Yes, most fire departments are volunteer. Most of the population in this country is protected by either all career or combination fire departments.

Oh, and although in a truly volunteer service you aren't paying them a salary, it isn't free by any means. Protective gear alone costs well over $10k.
http://www.cdapress.com/lifestyles/artic...b39b7.html
Quote:• The cost of equipping a firefighter with PPE (helmet, neck/ear hood, gloves, coat, pants, boots, radio and SCBA with mask) as pictured costs approximately $12,100. Adding a flashlight, set of irons and thermal imaging camera sets the price over $23,000.

Training costs too. Anywhere from $500 -$3000 a student depending on the state.

We've equipped and trained our firefighters, now they need something to put the fire out with.

A bare bones, no frills cheap as you can go engine fully equipped fire engine is going to cost you well over $500,000. That is a commercial cab (read International, Freightliner, etc) truck that when it rolls off the assembly line can be anything from a garbage truck to hauling freight. While fine for rural departments that run a couple hundred calls a year in busier departments they don't last. In those departments you need the custom, specifically designed for firefighting chassis to hold up to the abuse. Now you are talking about $500k just for the truck without a stitch of equipment.
BTW, you are looking at close to $1 million for aerial apparatus, and we aren't talking about specialized stuff like automatic tire chains and all wheel drive for the areas with significant snowfall, heaters for pump compartments for areas that see significant periods of extremely cold weather, air conditioning for the areas where heat is a problem, etc.

So now we have a firefighter with gear and training and apparatus. You now need a firehouse. Said firehouse has to at the very least have heat so that the fire apparatus doesn't freeze. Water to clean your equipment would be nice as well, along with a bathroom. There is also electrical bills, maintenance, etc. Even for just a shell building figure $40k for the building and another $5k a year for utilities.

This is just for an all volunteer department. Like I said earlier the majority of the population in this country is protected by an all or partial career department, so you can add salary in there as well.

As for privatization, I suggest you hit Google up and read about Rural Metro Fire Rescue in particular, and subscription fire departments in general.

1) Fair Tax. User fees (the gas tax with freight license surcharge was perhaps THE fairest tax we had before all-electric cars).

2) If you have one bad engine I'd say you sue the defense contractor for failing to deliver what they were contractually obligated to deliver. It also isn't like there is some massive shortage of engines designs and types the US military can get their hands on.

3) You are assuming a zero sum game. Capitalism grows the pie. Again ... I'm not for open borders. But I am for much larger quotas PROVIDED we eliminate the welfare state or make them ineligible for it. We have at several times had large immigration influxes. And usually they were just as crapped on as we are doing now. The Irish. The Italians. The Chinese who built most of the early west coast rail in appalling conditions. Etc.

4) Again ... it is a false argument. This issue is buried so deep behind so much more meaningful stuff. In my ideal government, we could triple the salaries and equipment of all fire/ems/police personnel and still have large double digit tax cuts.

5) Privatization ... my counter is Sandy Springs, GA which has privatized **** near everything.
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2014 08:14 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
08-06-2014 08:12 PM
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Kaplony Offline
Palmetto State Deplorable

Posts: 25,393
Joined: Apr 2013
I Root For: Newberry
Location: SC
Post: #82
RE: Spin Room Presidential Poll - Special Okie Edition Part 2
(08-06-2014 08:12 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(08-06-2014 08:02 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Re: 1
Again cut, cut, cut. And nowhere in anything you have shown me tells me where the federal government is going to get the money to do even the minimum amount of responsibilities the "Gubermint is evil" Libertarians like yourself admit they have to do. How are we going to pay for the minimalistic self defense force you Libertarians propose?


Re: 2
Most everybody out there readily admits there is waste in the defense budget. However, you example of "two engines for a single engine plane" fails to take in account that aircraft engines aren't indestructible. An aircraft without an engine is a lawn ornament and isn't protecting anyone.

Also bear in mind that much like the cost of prescription drugs the cost of military equipment goes towards development of better military equipment.

Re: 3
At no time in the entire history of our country have we had a totally open immigration policy. Even during the colonial days there were controls set on who came into the country. Since the Libertarians are for free markets then the market sets the wage. What happens when the flood of immigrants coming in drive wages down so far that more and more people are living in poverty? Oh yeah...I forgot....charity. What happens when that runs out?

Re: 4
Yes, most fire departments are volunteer. Most of the population in this country is protected by either all career or combination fire departments.

Oh, and although in a truly volunteer service you aren't paying them a salary, it isn't free by any means. Protective gear alone costs well over $10k.
http://www.cdapress.com/lifestyles/artic...b39b7.html
Quote:• The cost of equipping a firefighter with PPE (helmet, neck/ear hood, gloves, coat, pants, boots, radio and SCBA with mask) as pictured costs approximately $12,100. Adding a flashlight, set of irons and thermal imaging camera sets the price over $23,000.

Training costs too. Anywhere from $500 -$3000 a student depending on the state.

We've equipped and trained our firefighters, now they need something to put the fire out with.

A bare bones, no frills cheap as you can go engine fully equipped fire engine is going to cost you well over $500,000. That is a commercial cab (read International, Freightliner, etc) truck that when it rolls off the assembly line can be anything from a garbage truck to hauling freight. While fine for rural departments that run a couple hundred calls a year in busier departments they don't last. In those departments you need the custom, specifically designed for firefighting chassis to hold up to the abuse. Now you are talking about $500k just for the truck without a stitch of equipment.
BTW, you are looking at close to $1 million for aerial apparatus, and we aren't talking about specialized stuff like automatic tire chains and all wheel drive for the areas with significant snowfall, heaters for pump compartments for areas that see significant periods of extremely cold weather, air conditioning for the areas where heat is a problem, etc.

So now we have a firefighter with gear and training and apparatus. You now need a firehouse. Said firehouse has to at the very least have heat so that the fire apparatus doesn't freeze. Water to clean your equipment would be nice as well, along with a bathroom. There is also electrical bills, maintenance, etc. Even for just a shell building figure $40k for the building and another $5k a year for utilities.

This is just for an all volunteer department. Like I said earlier the majority of the population in this country is protected by an all or partial career department, so you can add salary in there as well.

As for privatization, I suggest you hit Google up and read about Rural Metro Fire Rescue in particular, and subscription fire departments in general.

1) Fair Tax. User fees (the gas tax with freight license surcharge was perhaps THE fairest tax we had before all-electric cars).

2) If you have one bad engine I'd say you sue the defense contractor for failing to deliver what they were contractually obligated to deliver. It also isn't like there is some massive shortage of engines designs and types the US military can get their hands on.

3) You are assuming a zero sum game. Capitalism grows the pie. Again ... I'm not for open borders. But I am for much larger quotas PROVIDED we eliminate the welfare state or make them ineligible for it. We have at several times had large immigration influxes. And usually they were just as crapped on as we are doing now. The Irish. The Italians. The Chinese who built most of the early west coast rail in appalling conditions. Etc.

4) Again ... it is a false argument. This issue is buried so deep behind so much more meaningful stuff. In my ideal government, we could triple the salaries and equipment of all fire/ems/police personnel and still have large double digit tax cuts.

5) Privatization ... my counter is Sandy Springs, GA which has privatized **** near everything.

1. Fair tax isn't a Libertarian Party platform.

2. OK, so we sue the manufacturer for a bad engine. In the months/years that this wields it's way through the legal system until we recoup the costs that aircraft is a hangar queen and useless for defense.

And that is just assuming that all malfunctions are defects. Jet engines don't like ingesting stuff like birds, debris, etc. There is also scheduled maintenance, rebuilds, etc.

3. You assume it grows the pie. Minimum wage laws weren't put in place initially because they weren't needed.
And since Libertarians are big on charity how far do you think charity is going to last in an area like Mullins, SC?

4 & 5. I'm just going on what the Libertarian Party's own national website said, that the private sector can do any function cheaper and better than the government can, so don't blame me for pointing out the fallacy of that statement.

BTW, Sandy Springs has public fire and law enforcement because the insurance costs would be too much for their citizens to bear. Guess there is a limit to the Libertarianism within the suburban elitists who wanted to isolate themselves from the unwashed masses of Fulton County.
08-06-2014 08:49 PM
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