(07-22-2014 08:30 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  Based on what JMU has done, I have concluded that we have done everything over the last 2 years to position our program for an FBS bid. CUSA visited the campus to do a site visit. The MAC commish visited the suite at Akron. We did a study that made the case that we belong in FBS and the university has engaged the faculty and the alumni to comment on a number of FBS related surveys and other discussions. We hired a coach shortly thereafter that coached at the FBS level and we gave him a deal that reflected an escalation clause when we move.

/uploads/files/SKMBT_C55214010717550(1).pdf

The university posted a comment on the website about the SunBelt and making the right move when invited. I don't have the link. Bourne also talked about FBS at the Caravan this Spring. JMU has made it clear that if we get the invitation that is aligned with our vision, we are moving to FBS. We eliminated the Sun Belt and that leaves CUSA or the MAC. The evidence is there if people want to consider it.

Should we have moved sooner? Yes. Did we miss a window? Yes. Was ODU more nimble and able to take advantage of a great offer in CUSA? Yes. I can't change the past but I can surely try to influence the present and the future. I can dwell in the past and complain about what we should have done. That's not productive and it won't change anything.

I play poker on occasion and our situation is similar to playing poker. 3-5 years ago, we were at the final table in a big stack tournament holding a pair of nines (9 9). ODU was holding a pair of sevens. (7 7). The flop was 7 8 9. We both have a set after the flop. We had the top set. ODU moved all in. They had the guts to do it. We folded. We asked the dealer to show us the turn and the river for the Hell of it. The cards were K 9. Had we stayed in, we would have 4 of a kind. We didn't and ODU took the pot (CUSA bid).

We can replay the way we played the hand forever. It won't help. We are now playing at another tournament and we are 2 players away from making the final table. The players are all playing tightly and we have played more aggressively over the last 2 years to move into a better position. We have a big stack but the other players at the table are sitting on large stacks. There are 9 seats at the final table and we have 11 players. If we are patient, 2 more players will go out or we will push them out. When we get to the final table, we are in FBS.

The fallacy in your thinking in this post and the last is that you are essentially assuming that there are no other moving pieces around you. Appalachian and JMU are almost the same academically. One big difference: we are already FBS. Who is to say that some spot opens up in the MAC or CUSA 3-5 years from now and JMU is the only choice? Who is to say that the rules for FBS membership won't be changed as a result of the new NCAA governing structure (which is likely).

The mistake your BOV made is thinking that your academic reputation is linked to who your team plays sports with on a regular basis. I'm sorry, but I just can't seem to find any college ranking guide in or out of print that adds or subtracts points to/from a school's academic rating because of the athletic conference they are in. (and honestly, I don't think the BOV's decision was based on academics, but on economics... its just the reason they alluded to publicly).

For every Stanford, there is a Washington State. For every Duke, a Clemson, and for every Vanderbilt, a Mississippi State. Yet somehow, Duke's reputation is not affected by its athletic peers in the ACC.

I honestly think the academic issue is a convenient excuse to kick the can down the road... unfortunately, the can was kicked into the ditch a few months ago, and the game may be over for a while.

I can tell you that there are a number of alums working with the BOV, the Duke Club Board and others in leadership to move us to FBS. The new members on the BOV and the chairs of the BOV committees will also be key. There has been good change over the last 2 years but there is a ton of work to be done. People are not sitting around hoping that the leadership makes the right moves. There is much more engagement at a number of levels.

(07-22-2014 09:47 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  I can tell you that there are a number of alums working with the BOV, the Duke Club Board and others in leadership to move us to FBS. The new members on the BOV and the chairs of the BOV committees will also be key. There has been good change over the last 2 years but there is a ton of work to be done. People are not sitting around hoping that the leadership makes the right moves. There is much more engagement at a number of levels.

While I think that is true, all of that means nothing if there is no one looking. The only conference interested would have been the SBC and when they came calling JMU blinked. The MAC (after giving UMASS walking papers) and CUSA (at more than 12 members) are out for a while, and it could be a long while... SBC was courted heavily by EKU and UMASS and millions were thrown at us by Liberty... but we stayed pat. If that doesn't explain the current outlook conferences have on additional membership I don't know what to say.

(07-22-2014 09:26 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  I believe for us to get to FBS, the first domino has to fall in the AAC, causing a shake up in the CUSA and/or the MAC. Until that happens we're in a holding pattern unless we do an about face and decide to call the Sun Belt back.

I think this is true regarding CUSA, but not necessarily with MAC. MAC has shown repeated interest in expanding into the mid-atlantic without prompting by exiting teams. The CFP $$ the MAC receives is not so great as to eliminate this desire, from what I see. I think they want 14 if they can get the right two to add in the mid-atlantic. Hell, maybe we could pair with MO State to bring the MAC to 14 full members.

Yeah, that's all well and good but if nobody wants us it's a moot point. That's why I think we should just get back in touch with the Sun Belt and ask if they're still interested in us being a member, which I imagine they would be. That said, I don't have any inside information on what may or may not be happening in discussions with other conferences.

(07-22-2014 10:06 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Yeah, that's all well and good but if nobody wants us it's a moot point. That's why I think we should just get back in touch with the Sun Belt and ask if they're still interested in us being a member, which I imagine they would be. That said, I don't have any inside information on what may or may not be happening in discussions with other conferences.

I would encourage you to look at the letter the members of the CAA sent to the NCAA regarding the new governing structure, and see if the CAA/SoCon position reflects the goals and objectives of James Madison. If you feel it does... great, you are in the right place. If it doesn't, JMU needs to get the heck out as soon as you can.

Emails and docs can be found here:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...282%29.pdf

Until someone shows me differently, there is no room at the Inn. I feel like the CUSA or MAC conversation is convenient now that there are no openings. I just don't see a vision that involves FBS.

JMU is an FBS type of school. I just don't see us getting there anytime soon.

GoApps - the moving pieces also happen within conferences. I would not be surprised to see some schools not be able to make the cut at the FBS level. We'll see what happens. The best opportunities have past, but the future is always wide open. If JMU positions itself the right way, it may be a more attractive member than a current school in a given conference - SBC, MAC or C-USA.

Crazy things happen, and the business of college sports becomes more cutthroat everyday. A strong JMU program could offer a lot to the mid-major conferences. We'll see where we are 4-5 years from now. If our leadership wants it, we'll find a way (assuming NCAA rules allow it). They have not really wanted FBS in recent years. Risk aversion rules at JMU, and they want investments without taking necessary risks and stepping out of their comfort zone. That's not how the world works, and those with vision have surpassed our program. We can still move up, but I hate getting old waiting for this crap to come to fruition.

(07-22-2014 08:30 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  Based on what JMU has done, I have concluded that we have done everything over the last 2 years to position our program for an FBS bid. CUSA visited the campus to do a site visit. The MAC commish visited the suite at Akron. We did a study that made the case that we belong in FBS and the university has engaged the faculty and the alumni to comment on a number of FBS related surveys and other discussions. We hired a coach shortly thereafter that coached at the FBS level and we gave him a deal that reflected an escalation clause when we move.

/uploads/files/SKMBT_C55214010717550(1).pdf

The university posted a comment on the website about the SunBelt and making the right move when invited. I don't have the link. Bourne also talked about FBS at the Caravan this Spring. JMU has made it clear that if we get the invitation that is aligned with our vision, we are moving to FBS. We eliminated the Sun Belt and that leaves CUSA or the MAC. The evidence is there if people want to consider it.

Should we have moved sooner? Yes. Did we miss a window? Yes. Was ODU more nimble and able to take advantage of a great offer in CUSA? Yes. I can't change the past but I can surely try to influence the present and the future. I can dwell in the past and complain about what we should have done. That's not productive and it won't change anything.

I play poker on occasion and our situation is similar to playing poker. 3-5 years ago, we were at the final table in a big stack tournament holding a pair of nines (9 9). ODU was holding a pair of sevens. (7 7). The flop was 7 8 9. We both have a set after the flop. We had the top set. ODU moved all in. They had the guts to do it. We folded. We asked the dealer to show us the turn and the river for the Hell of it. The cards were K 9. Had we stayed in, we would have 4 of a kind. We didn't and ODU took the pot (CUSA bid).

We can replay the way we played the hand forever. It won't help. We are now playing at another tournament and we are 2 players away from making the final table. The players are all playing tightly and we have played more aggressively over the last 2 years to move into a better position. We have a big stack but the other players at the table are sitting on large stacks. There are 9 seats at the final table and we have 11 players. If we are patient, 2 more players will go out or we will push them out. When we get to the final table, we are in FBS.

I play a lot of poker too, kudos for the great analogy, albeit not accurate.

JMU does not sit on a large stack. JMU can barely cover the next ante. The guy(s) that decide the next move is/are the same guy(s) that have folded every hand dealt that was not paired face cards > queens long ago indicating to all players that JMU does not know how to play winning poker. If JMU is lucky and is dealt pocket Aces the very next hand, JMU will go all in, if not, the poker tourney is very likely over for JMU.

JMU's only chance of being invited to the next tourney (retribution) is if someone else bails out and the organizer has to work his way down the list of fill ins.

Solitaire is better suited for JMU's admin, the game moves much slower and table readiness is not necessary to win...

(07-22-2014 10:13 PM)GoAppsGo92 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 10:06 PM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  Yeah, that's all well and good but if nobody wants us it's a moot point. That's why I think we should just get back in touch with the Sun Belt and ask if they're still interested in us being a member, which I imagine they would be. That said, I don't have any inside information on what may or may not be happening in discussions with other conferences.

I would encourage you to look at the letter the members of the CAA sent to the NCAA regarding the new governing structure, and see if the CAA/SoCon position reflects the goals and objectives of James Madison. If you feel it does... great, you are in the right place. If it doesn't, JMU needs to get the heck out as soon as you can.

Emails and docs can be found here:

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...282%29.pdf

link doesn't work

Quote:JMU can barely cover the next ante.

Nothing student fees won't fix.

(07-23-2014 05:02 AM)Yesolitis Wrote:  GoApps - the moving pieces also happen within conferences. I would not be surprised to see some schools not be able to make the cut at the FBS level. We'll see what happens. The best opportunities have past, but the future is always wide open. If JMU positions itself the right way, it may be a more attractive member than a current school in a given conference - SBC, MAC or C-USA.

Crazy things happen, and the business of college sports becomes more cutthroat everyday. A strong JMU program could offer a lot to the mid-major conferences. We'll see where we are 4-5 years from now. If our leadership wants it, we'll find a way (assuming NCAA rules allow it). They have not really wanted FBS in recent years. Risk aversion rules at JMU, and they want investments without taking necessary risks and stepping out of their comfort zone. That's not how the world works, and those with vision have surpassed our program. We can still move up, but I hate getting old waiting for this crap to come to fruition.

I appreciate your optimism, but I don't see JMU jumping the pecking order just because it's JMU. Here's a scenario: The AAC loses two teams to a P5 conference. The AAC does not backfill with JMU, but instead calls up two teams from CUSA, let's say Rice and UTEP. Should that happen, what makes JMU more attractive to CUSA than already-FBS schools with proven winning records like ULL, stAte, South Alabama, Troy, or Texas State?

If anybody knows how JMU feels, it's App. We've been where you are. We thought CUSA was our knight in shining armor, but we were wrong. We waiting around for the best option and everything didn't fall in place the way we wanted it to. So, what did we do? We took what we could get while we could still get it. Does Appalachian State plan on sticking with the Sun Belt for good? I doubt it, but we now have our foot in the door, so that if the MAC decides to move its footprint further south or CUSA wants a closer rival for Charlotte, we're there. We don't have to do a transition anymore, and neither does ODU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, or any other school that has moved up in the past few years. What's killing JMU is you still do. Any conference that may want you has to realize that they won't get you right off the bat. You will have to transition and make lots of changes to be able to join in a timely manner. Why would an established conference want do that for an FCS team when they have their choice of a ton of schools in the FBS who would not have to transition?

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but the attitude that JMU is better than everybody in the Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC put together has to stop. Appalachian State fans understand that we are not the best. We're just hoping to have a season where we break even this year. If JMU fans think they will come into any FBS conference and just rule it, you're sadly mistaken. These are all just hard truths to swallow.

I think MAC isn't an unrealistic option for JMU. They want into the mid-atlantic region. I know many at JMU prefer C-USA, I just don't see the possibility with them at 14.

I don't think believing the above demonstrates that I think JMU is better than all schools in the bottom 3 FBS conferences. I just think it's a fit & there seemed to be mutual interest before UMass opted out.

and round and round we go.

(07-23-2014 09:04 AM)rknj8993 Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 05:02 AM)Yesolitis Wrote:  GoApps - the moving pieces also happen within conferences. I would not be surprised to see some schools not be able to make the cut at the FBS level. We'll see what happens. The best opportunities have past, but the future is always wide open. If JMU positions itself the right way, it may be a more attractive member than a current school in a given conference - SBC, MAC or C-USA.

Crazy things happen, and the business of college sports becomes more cutthroat everyday. A strong JMU program could offer a lot to the mid-major conferences. We'll see where we are 4-5 years from now. If our leadership wants it, we'll find a way (assuming NCAA rules allow it). They have not really wanted FBS in recent years. Risk aversion rules at JMU, and they want investments without taking necessary risks and stepping out of their comfort zone. That's not how the world works, and those with vision have surpassed our program. We can still move up, but I hate getting old waiting for this crap to come to fruition.

I appreciate your optimism, but I don't see JMU jumping the pecking order just because it's JMU. Here's a scenario: The AAC loses two teams to a P5 conference. The AAC does not backfill with JMU, but instead calls up two teams from CUSA, let's say Rice and UTEP. Should that happen, what makes JMU more attractive to CUSA than already-FBS schools with proven winning records like ULL, stAte, South Alabama, Troy, or Texas State?

If anybody knows how JMU feels, it's App. We've been where you are. We thought CUSA was our knight in shining armor, but we were wrong. We waiting around for the best option and everything didn't fall in place the way we wanted it to. So, what did we do? We took what we could get while we could still get it. Does Appalachian State plan on sticking with the Sun Belt for good? I doubt it, but we now have our foot in the door, so that if the MAC decides to move its footprint further south or CUSA wants a closer rival for Charlotte, we're there. We don't have to do a transition anymore, and neither does ODU, Georgia Southern, Georgia State, or any other school that has moved up in the past few years. What's killing JMU is you still do. Any conference that may want you has to realize that they won't get you right off the bat. You will have to transition and make lots of changes to be able to join in a timely manner. Why would an established conference want do that for an FCS team when they have their choice of a ton of schools in the FBS who would not have to transition?

I'm not trying to be a prick here, but the attitude that JMU is better than everybody in the Sun Belt, CUSA, and MAC put together has to stop. Appalachian State fans understand that we are not the best. We're just hoping to have a season where we break even this year. If JMU fans think they will come into any FBS conference and just rule it, you're sadly mistaken. These are all just hard truths to swallow.

This is very true. I've long maintained that the best comparison JMU has had to moving up is App State and App struggled to get into the C-USA. I love my school, but I really don't see how JMU is any more desireable to an FBS conference than App State outside of maybe a close proximity to two big markets in DC and Richmond.

MAYBE you could argue that JMU and Delaware together would be desireable expansion partners to the MAC, but Delaware doesn't appear interested in FBS football.

Perhaps UMass rethinks their position if they're not moved to the AAC? I just don't think it's crazy or disrespectful to CUSA/SBC, etc.. to think MAC is a possibility.

If JMU has turned down the Sunbelt and JMU would immediately accept an invite from CUSA or the MAC, what benefit comes from the effort from HH&C (others too) "working with the BOV and DC leadership?"

Based on what we have been told by the geniuses on this board, can the effort provide a different result?

I still hope JMU joins the Sun Belt but the effort has to come from you guys. The Sun Belt will not come begging again. I believe JMU will regret the decision to remain in FCS but that seems to be what your leaders have decided to do.

The academic excuse for not joining is just that--- an excuse. If that is the criteria maybe the Ivy League has an opening.

Like it or not the gap between the G5 teams and the FCS is about to get even bigger. I still hold out hope that your leadership will think seriously about the Sun Belt.

JMU fans appear to prefer the FBS to FCS

JMU admin appears to prefer the FCS to FBS

JMU could have joined the SBC last year

CUSA and MAC are not adding at this time and the current structure doesn't lend to expansion

JMU admin tells JMU supporters they are holding out for CUSA
__________________________________________________

So could they be telling supporters what they want to hear and/or providing false hope, just saying.

(07-23-2014 10:03 AM)Saint3333 Wrote:  JMU fans appear to prefer the FBS to FCS

JMU admin appears to prefer the FCS to FBS

JMU could have joined the SBC last year

CUSA and MAC are not adding at this time and the current structure doesn't lend to expansion

JMU admin tells JMU supporters they are holding out for CUSA
__________________________________________________

So could they be telling supporters what they want to hear and/or providing false hope, just saying.

Well, that's part of the issue here. JMU Admin doesn't really tell JMU supporters much of anything...