(07-22-2014 05:59 AM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  I understand the frustration of not being in FBS right now and I get it that the SunBelt is a path. It's not the right path if you think about what our vision should be. We should be focused on cranking out the best manager, lawyer, nurse, engineer, musician, scientist, teacher, speech therapist, etc. It's more important to me to help the current students be the best employees and future leader than whether we get to FBS now by way of the SunBelt or if we are a little more patient and we land in the MAC or CUSA with a peer from the CAA. We are an academic institution first and foremost. Sports should never dictate the vision of a university.

Sports compliments the mission and can be instrumental in a number ways to expediting the vision. Sports is important because of the engagement and linkage it brings to the university. Current students and alums from all backgrounds rally in one place (football and basketball) to support the school together. Sports is important in the relationship building cycle and sports can lead to more giving of time, talent and money in other parts of the university. If JMU gets a donor to give to sports there is a good chance to grow that donor into giving to academics. Sports gives the passion platform and good development people can parlay that passion into helping more students with more programs. When we focus more on relationship building to develop a better graduate we will be on the right road to being a great university.

The SunBelt does not seem to be viable at this time for JMU if we care (which we do) about developing the best graduate. It's easy to say that many of us have brutal travel schedules and we function well with little sleep and therefore the 18-22 year old young adults should be able to suck it up and play sports and excel in class. I thought I was very organized and driven from 1981-1984 when I was a student at JMU. I graduated early from JMU by taking classes during the Summer. It seemed like a great idea 30 years ago but looking back, maybe I should have stayed 1 more semester. I worked 30-40 hours a week at McDonalds and Dukes Grill while taking 18 credit hours. I thought I was extremely busy back then. I viewed my life through very young eyes. I work much harder and longer now and that has happened through years of seasoning and maturity. Our young men and women student athletes need the best option to function as students. The SunBelt does not provide the best option for our students.

Additionally, our reputation will take a hit if we are in the SunBelt. The CAA has a much better academic reputation than the SunBelt. The MAC and CUSA have better academic reputations. It is important to be aligned with sister institutions for faculty and student engagement. The MAC gives us the best academic and athletic base.

Don't get me wrong. I was hoping to be in a transition year by now in CUSA or the MAC. I'm disappointed to still be playing in the CAA in 2014. I'm confident that we are positioning ourselves for a FBS move based on public statements being made by the leadership and by the fact that we hired an FBS coach. We did not hire a coach to keep us in FCS. Just follow Coach Withers on Twitter and see what he's tweeting. Everything points to FBS.

HHC - Very well put and we're basically on the same page. It's just that last line "Everything points to FBS" that I can't quite agree with. I agree on the Withers factor and mostly agree that we're well-positioned. And I'm even alright with turning down Sun Belt if it's not what JMU wants and doesn't fit with the plans. That said, and maybe I'm just too glass half-empty, but the thing that doesn't point to FBS is the most important: conferences we want actually expanding. And to me that's a product of all the dithering and b.s. and "falling behind" that's been going on the last five years, not because those opportunities weren't ever there. I for one simply do not believe there's a partner for the MAC even next year, and I think the MAC and CUSA are going to get real comfy with the new revenue.

If no one but the SBC wants us, and we don't want the SBC, then NOTHING points to FBS. We can't snap our fingers and secure an invite from an "acceptable" conference.

I don't get how that issue can be over looked.

(07-22-2014 09:10 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  HH&C, I respect you because you don't attack people. You simply tell it the way you see it, that's a great ability you have to stay emotionally under control. However, I really wish we could get away from the overtones that the MAC and CUSA are going to be any easier for our kids with regards to travel. There is so little difference in the time away from Harrisonburg for any conference we could possibly end up in, that it shouldn't be a part of the equation. There is simply no way to take a time account and predict any discernible difference.

As for the academic issue, that's been discussed to death. I can see that the Sunbelt has a lower academic reputation than we might accept, but that is mainly in reputation from the past and not where they are today. There have been upgrades. I don't believe, that in three years (the time it would take for us to become totally integrated into a FBS conference), that any HS student looking for the best place to study will think the SB is any less than CUSA, nor will the academic reputation that a graduating senior at JMU might have, is lessened due to his degree being from a SB school versus the MAC or CUSA. I specifically used CUSA with regards to the high school student, and not the MAC, because I do not think we will ever receive a significant number of applications from "Rust Belt" high school students.

Furthermore, I will now be totally, yet pleasantly shocked, if the Mac or CUSA come calling during the next five years. I do not believe we can think about waiting that long. Prior to Appy and GA Southern entering the SB, I had no use for it. It was not a fit at all. At the time ODU entered the CUSA, I just knew we were next and believe that we could have gotten an invite over ODU and Charlotte had we really pursued it. At best, it would have been a toss up between the three of us for two slots, but we didn't even care to put on a "Dog and Pony" show. I place that on Rose.

If you can lay out two or three possible ways for me to have any hope of a call from the MAC or CUSA, then I can climb on board your train. Until then, I will go with the best chance we have, the SB. Even after we snubbed our nose a few months ago, I believe we still have that door closer to being opened than anywhere.

Once again, well put. Completely agree with everything you have stated here.

(07-22-2014 09:10 AM)BleedingPurple Wrote:  As for the academic issue, that's been discussed to death. I can see that the Sunbelt has a lower academic reputation than we might accept, but that is mainly in reputation from the past and not where they are today. There have been upgrades. I don't believe, that in three years (the time it would take for us to become totally integrated into a FBS conference), that any HS student looking for the best place to study will think the SB is any less than CUSA, nor will the academic reputation that a graduating senior at JMU might have, is lessened due to his degree being from a SB school versus the MAC or CUSA. I specifically used CUSA with regards to the high school student, and not the MAC, because I do not think we will ever receive a significant number of applications from "Rust Belt" high school students.

If I were Benson, I would start an effort to get each school in the SB to announce academic upgrades due to the extra athletics money. JMU is going to need a way to save face when they join the SB next year.

Do we really think that a move to FBS football will help Alger achieve his ultimate goals?

(07-22-2014 10:21 AM)Dukeman Wrote:  Do we really think that a move to FBS football will help Alger achieve his ultimate goals?

I see what you did there.

(07-21-2014 02:41 PM)jmufbs Wrote:  

(07-21-2014 01:49 PM)Bogey Wrote:  Even with additional money on the table the sun belt will always be a nonstarter. In addition to most of the schools being inferior academic institutions the travel results in athletes missing too much class time. I have a good friend who coached basketball at Western Kentucky back when it was in the sun belt. He said the kids were always exhausted and struggling with school work. The problem was that for a lot of games they could not get a flight back at night after the game. In order to get a cheap flight they would fly out the next morning at 7AM which meant leaving a hotel well before 5AM. this is all after playing the night before where everyone would be too wound up to go to sleep until well after midnight. This would not be an issue for football but for soccer, baseball and basketball it would be brutal. Hopefully academics plays a part in any decision.

Most athletes at the college level spent the better part of 6 + years in middle / high school traveling god-forsaken distances every weekend and into Monday's for "travel" tournaments ( in a car with mom or dad).This is specific to all the sports you mention - Soccer / Baseball / basketball - might as well throw in softball as well. many travel teams practice late at night during school weeks. These athletes have a more flexible schedule and academic advising assistance in college.
If they haven't learned to manage their time in high school, its not going to happen in college .
Sun Belt Travel can be manageable , and quite honestly, would be easier on them than the path they had to take to get to into college on an athletic scholarship.

Practicing late at night during the school year does not involve missing class.
Those travel tournaments you are referring to take place in the summer and do not result in missed class time. In what parallel universe would regularly missing three days of classes be easier than what athletes experienced in high school. Over the years I have had conversations with countless athletes in almost every sport at JMU. The one universal theme with ALL of them was that college athletics were Much MORE demanding on their time.
Hopefully president Alger continues to remember that JMU's primary mission is to provide educations not weekend tailgating opportunities.

As JMUNation has said before, I do not believe our administration has any real ambitions to play FBS football unless it involves a BCS conference. We are too happy and content to be FCS. It is what it is.

By the way, I just finished reading Lindy's preseason college football magazine. It was weird and depressing reading about ODU and knowing we have been passed by a program that did not exist when I was at JMU.

Does anyone seriously believe that CUSA will have an opening anytime soon? With the new payout structure based on 12 schools, CUSA will not be adding a school unless they drop below 12. Ditto for the MAC. Add in the fact that it appears we are entering a period of conference stability, It is highly likely the Sun Belt is the only avenue.

(07-22-2014 05:24 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:  Does anyone seriously believe that CUSA will have an opening anytime soon? With the new payout structure based on 12 schools, CUSA will not be adding a school unless they drop below 12. Ditto for the MAC. Add in the fact that it appears we are entering a period of conference stability, It is highly likely the Sun Belt is the only avenue.

Like GSU said, there seems to be one road out of the FCS now and quite a few trying to beat each other to the destination. While I do not think you will see CUSA drop any members, I do believe that you will not see CUSA add any new members. Why go to 15 when 14 is already too many? The MAC has stated that they are comfortable with their 12 members and I'm sure that is more true now that ever before with the new payout structure. For the foreseeable future, there is only one spot left in the FBS and that spot is in the Sun Belt.

I do not believe you will see the Sun Belt beg JMU to be in the conference again, but I believe the Sun Belt will leave the door open for JMU until they get too tired and invite somebody else to get to that championship game. If JMU wants to wait around for CUSA and MAC, they're welcome to, but when the Sun Belt moves on and CUSA and MAC don't come calling, you have no one to blame but yourself.

As a final note: do you think that the Sun Belt was App's first choice? Of course not. But we saw the opportunity there and we took it. Is App happy with the Sun Belt? I believe yes. We want to succeed where we are now and then look at our options in a few years. JMU should take note.

Earlier in this thread HH&C said Coach Withers is "pointing to FBS" and "JMU hired an FBS coach."

HH&C, will you or somebody else tell us what Coach Withers has said and or done that "points to FBS" and also explain how a man that is the head coach of a fcs program is a FBS coach?

While this doesn't say "FBS" it sure implies it: https://twitter.com/JMUCoachWithers/stat...1829699584

(07-22-2014 06:16 PM)lingerba Wrote:  While this doesn't say "FBS" it sure implies it: https://twitter.com/JMUCoachWithers/stat...1829699584

I must be missing something, what in this link implies fbs? All I see is a fake picture or bfs and a discussion about the fake picture.

Based on what JMU has done, I have concluded that we have done everything over the last 2 years to position our program for an FBS bid. CUSA visited the campus to do a site visit. The MAC commish visited the suite at Akron. We did a study that made the case that we belong in FBS and the university has engaged the faculty and the alumni to comment on a number of FBS related surveys and other discussions. We hired a coach shortly thereafter that coached at the FBS level and we gave him a deal that reflected an escalation clause when we move.

/uploads/files/SKMBT_C55214010717550(1).pdf

The university posted a comment on the website about the SunBelt and making the right move when invited. I don't have the link. Bourne also talked about FBS at the Caravan this Spring. JMU has made it clear that if we get the invitation that is aligned with our vision, we are moving to FBS. We eliminated the Sun Belt and that leaves CUSA or the MAC. The evidence is there if people want to consider it.

Should we have moved sooner? Yes. Did we miss a window? Yes. Was ODU more nimble and able to take advantage of a great offer in CUSA? Yes. I can't change the past but I can surely try to influence the present and the future. I can dwell in the past and complain about what we should have done. That's not productive and it won't change anything.

I play poker on occasion and our situation is similar to playing poker. 3-5 years ago, we were at the final table in a big stack tournament holding a pair of nines (9 9). ODU was holding a pair of sevens. (7 7). The flop was 7 8 9. We both have a set after the flop. We had the top set. ODU moved all in. They had the guts to do it. We folded. We asked the dealer to show us the turn and the river for the Hell of it. The cards were K 9. Had we stayed in, we would have 4 of a kind. We didn't and ODU took the pot (CUSA bid).

We can replay the way we played the hand forever. It won't help. We are now playing at another tournament and we are 2 players away from making the final table. The players are all playing tightly and we have played more aggressively over the last 2 years to move into a better position. We have a big stack but the other players at the table are sitting on large stacks. There are 9 seats at the final table and we have 11 players. If we are patient, 2 more players will go out or we will push them out. When we get to the final table, we are in FBS.

MAC and CUSA have no financial incentive to invite JMU. We're trying to join a game when all seats are taken.

Tell me why anyone should expect either of those conferences to invite JMU given the current landscape where 12 is the ideal number for FBS conferences.

(07-22-2014 08:38 PM)JMU2004 Wrote:  MAC and CUSA have no financial incentive to invite JMU. We're trying to join a game when all seats are taken.

This guy hit the nail on the head. You're looking for a seat at the table when there are no more seats left. Why would the conference members vote to drop the amount they are paid just to let JMU in? CUSA is nothing but a pipedream right now, seeing as they will already be hurting a little more with 14 members. The MAC is close to a pipe dream, as they have their 12 that they're happy with.

Should one of the teams in the MAC get called up to the AAC, JMU may have a shot. Should a team from CUSA get called up, I do not believe JMU would be the team of choice. I see Arkansas State and ULL being pulled up before JMU would get the call. ODU has stolen your limelight and it'll be hard to get it back when JMU cannot argue that it brings in a new, large-ish market.

(07-22-2014 08:44 PM)rknj8993 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 08:38 PM)JMU2004 Wrote:  MAC and CUSA have no financial incentive to invite JMU. We're trying to join a game when all seats are taken.

This guy hit the nail on the head. You're looking for a seat at the table when there are no more seats left. Why would the conference members vote to drop the amount they are paid just to let JMU in? CUSA is nothing but a pipedream right now, seeing as they will already be hurting a little more with 14 members. The MAC is close to a pipe dream, as they have their 12 that they're happy with.

Should one of the teams in the MAC get called up to the AAC, JMU may have a shot. Should a team from CUSA get called up, I do not believe JMU would be the team of choice. I see Arkansas State and ULL being pulled up before JMU would get the call. ODU has stolen your limelight and it'll be hard to get it back when JMU cannot argue that it brings in a new, large-ish market.

Actually it theoretically could...whether or not our people in power can sell it remains doubtful.

(07-22-2014 08:30 PM)HotHamandCheese84 Wrote:  Based on what JMU has done, I have concluded that we have done everything over the last 2 years to position our program for an FBS bid. CUSA visited the campus to do a site visit. The MAC commish visited the suite at Akron. We did a study that made the case that we belong in FBS and the university has engaged the faculty and the alumni to comment on a number of FBS related surveys and other discussions. We hired a coach shortly thereafter that coached at the FBS level and we gave him a deal that reflected an escalation clause when we move.

/uploads/files/SKMBT_C55214010717550(1).pdf

The university posted a comment on the website about the SunBelt and making the right move when invited. I don't have the link. Bourne also talked about FBS at the Caravan this Spring. JMU has made it clear that if we get the invitation that is aligned with our vision, we are moving to FBS. We eliminated the Sun Belt and that leaves CUSA or the MAC. The evidence is there if people want to consider it.

Should we have moved sooner? Yes. Did we miss a window? Yes. Was ODU more nimble and able to take advantage of a great offer in CUSA? Yes. I can't change the past but I can surely try to influence the present and the future. I can dwell in the past and complain about what we should have done. That's not productive and it won't change anything.

I play poker on occasion and our situation is similar to playing poker. 3-5 years ago, we were at the final table in a big stack tournament holding a pair of nines (9 9). ODU was holding a pair of sevens. (7 7). The flop was 7 8 9. We both have a set after the flop. We had the top set. ODU moved all in. They had the guts to do it. We folded. We asked the dealer to show us the turn and the river for the Hell of it. The cards were K 9. Had we stayed in, we would have 4 of a kind. We didn't and ODU took the pot (CUSA bid).

We can replay the way we played the hand forever. It won't help. We are now playing at another tournament and we are 2 players away from making the final table. The players are all playing tightly and we have played more aggressively over the last 2 years to move into a better position. We have a big stack but the other players at the table are sitting on large stacks. There are 9 seats at the final table and we have 11 players. If we are patient, 2 more players will go out or we will push them out. When we get to the final table, we are in FBS.

Even with the overwrought (though not wrong) analogy, again I like your attitude. I just think there's a fine line between trying to positively influence the outcome and blindly cheerleading (or even allowing the clearly weak admin to believe we'll continue to blindly shake the pom-poms in FCS).

The administration is either foolish or feel reassured that something other than the Sun Belt will be available from discussions with commissioners. I do think that CUSA probably won't expand for some time due to how many members they already have. The MAC may still be a possibility which is why the administration keeps balking at the Sun Belt. If UMASS had agreed to join in all sports, I believe we would already have accepted an invitation to join the MAC. Still its quite the gamble for the administration if they don't feel confident that a conference other than the Sun Belt will have a spot available soon.

I do think people get too hung up on the CFP payouts. While it does decrease when you have more than 12 teams, that alone won't keep a conference from expanding beyond 12 if the right candidate is out there. The impact on TV revenue, travel costs, etc also come into play and could trump any decrease in CFP payouts.

I believe for us to get to FBS, the first domino has to fall in the AAC, causing a shake up in the CUSA and/or the MAC. Until that happens we're in a holding pattern unless we do an about face and decide to call the Sun Belt back.