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What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
Tours.
07-17-2014 06:56 AM
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DragonLair Offline
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Post: #12
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
(07-16-2014 03:15 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 02:18 PM)DragonLair Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 02:07 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Thermopylae

A small force of Greeks held off a Persian army that outnumbered them better than 100-1. This led to the rise of the Greek society which our own society is modeled upon, as is most of the rest of the modern world.
I knew this would come up. I didn't want to say it but yes it was a significant battle but it has gotten way blown out of proportion.

Yes there was only 300 Spartan warriors but each of those spartan warriors had their squires and assistants who would help out during the battle by being an auxiliary force. On top of that there were a significant number of Thebans, Athenians and many other Greek city-states represented.

Still they were outnumbered but not to the extent that is widely guessed.
The Greeks were vastly outnumbered. There were a few thousand Greeks (4000-7000, depending) against a Persian army numbering anywhere between 100,000-200,000, depending on which historian does the counting.

That's not a small thing, when you can send a large number of men after each single Greek. And this was an old style battle, when the fighting was done up close and personal. The fact that you dismiss it shows you really don't understand the realities of this kind of war.

In warfare there are things called force multipliers that can give a smaller force a advantage due to a number of factors.

And that's exactly why they chose the hot gates as a defensive point. It makes the numerical advantage worthless because you could only fit so many people at one time.

Yes the persian had more men to throw in the fire but the greeks were better trained, better equiped and were fighting for there homeland.

the persian army was mostly conscripts of conquered people. they were periculaly skilled the the type of combat that they used against the greeks. The persian army was mostly a archer and cavaly army. they used cavalry to there advantage when fighting on the plains in asia minor. the upclose and personal fitghing is what the greeks specialized in. that and with bronze/heavy oak sheilds, bronze cuirass(sometimes laminate armor) they were basically the tanks of the ancient period.
07-17-2014 11:04 AM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #13
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
Kursk

Not only the greatest land battle in the history of the World, but it was the real turning point of the greatest War the World has ever seen. The Wehrmacht never mounted a major offensive against the Red Army again after Kursk.
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2014 11:18 AM by 49RFootballNow.)
07-17-2014 11:17 AM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #14
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
(07-17-2014 11:04 AM)DragonLair Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 03:15 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 02:18 PM)DragonLair Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 02:07 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Thermopylae

A small force of Greeks held off a Persian army that outnumbered them better than 100-1. This led to the rise of the Greek society which our own society is modeled upon, as is most of the rest of the modern world.
I knew this would come up. I didn't want to say it but yes it was a significant battle but it has gotten way blown out of proportion.

Yes there was only 300 Spartan warriors but each of those spartan warriors had their squires and assistants who would help out during the battle by being an auxiliary force. On top of that there were a significant number of Thebans, Athenians and many other Greek city-states represented.

Still they were outnumbered but not to the extent that is widely guessed.
The Greeks were vastly outnumbered. There were a few thousand Greeks (4000-7000, depending) against a Persian army numbering anywhere between 100,000-200,000, depending on which historian does the counting.

That's not a small thing, when you can send a large number of men after each single Greek. And this was an old style battle, when the fighting was done up close and personal. The fact that you dismiss it shows you really don't understand the realities of this kind of war.
In warfare there are things called force multipliers that can give a smaller force a advantage due to a number of factors.

And that's exactly why they chose the hot gates as a defensive point. It makes the numerical advantage worthless because you could only fit so many people at one time.

Yes the persian had more men to throw in the fire but the greeks were better trained, better equiped and were fighting for there homeland.

the persian army was mostly conscripts of conquered people. they were periculaly skilled the the type of combat that they used against the greeks. The persian army was mostly a archer and cavaly army. they used cavalry to there advantage when fighting on the plains in asia minor. the upclose and personal fitghing is what the greeks specialized in. that and with bronze/heavy oak sheilds, bronze cuirass(sometimes laminate armor) they were basically the tanks of the ancient period.
One aspect you've failed to take into account is the Greek navy's role in this. They were outnumbered by the Persian navy as well. But the man in charge of the Greek navy also chose the perfect spot to defend against the Persians, which kept them from landing troops behind the ground troops at Thermopylae. That would have rendered Greek ground forces impotent. It's hard enough to fight when outnumbered, without having to do so on 2 fronts. The Greeks at Thermopylae had superior fighters, a superior navy, superior commanders, both on land and sea, and rendered a vastly superior number of opposition forces impotent in the battle. And they did this against all odds to the contrary.

I think you shortchange them, and disregard the evidence of an overwhelming disadvantage turned into an advantage for the Greeks. This led to the rise of our modern civilization, which would not have been possible without the commitment of Greeks, especially the Spartans, who fought to the death of every one of their men.
(This post was last modified: 07-17-2014 12:32 PM by bitcruncher.)
07-17-2014 12:31 PM
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DragonLair Offline
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Post: #15
What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
No I purposely left out the naval battle. I thought about bringing it up. But decided to focus on the ground element which I have more knowledge about than the naval side. The naval battle was definitely more of an underdog story. They were significantly helped out by storms that wrecks a good portion of the Persian fleet. The Greek navy was doing well but decided to retreat after learning of the ground forces lose.

I don't disagree that this battle was favored to go to the Persian but I believe it has been ramped up by the recent popularity of the Spartans.


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07-17-2014 12:47 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #16
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
Whatever the case, the Greeks kept the Perians from overrunning the entire Mediterranean basin, which allowed the rise of Greek and Roman society, which led in turn to the rise of our own society. The overall effect of this one single battle cannot be overlooked, since it had an effect on all of human civilization.
07-17-2014 01:29 PM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #17
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
Ypres.
07-17-2014 07:10 PM
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DefCONNOne Offline
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Post: #18
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
The Peninsular War.

The rise of Wellington, the first fall of Napoleon. Which causes the War of 1812 to drag on longer than it normally would have. Then, finally, the second fall of Napoleon
07-17-2014 11:37 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #19
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
(07-16-2014 04:19 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  U.S. Civil War.

Correction....to have a "civil war", that would require two parties fighting for the same government.

The War of Northern Aggression or the War Between the States was a war consisting of the South fighting for independence, their second war of independence against an oppressive government!
07-18-2014 03:20 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: What Battle or Conflict Stands Out in History?
(07-18-2014 03:20 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  
(07-16-2014 04:19 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  U.S. Civil War.

Correction....to have a "civil war", that would require two parties fighting for the same government.

The War of Northern Aggression or the War Between the States was a war consisting of the South fighting for independence, their second war of independence against an oppressive government!

Whatever you call it, the U.S. has had a large impact on the world since that war ended. Seems like the impact would have been much different if it was 2 countries instead of 1.

But "civil war" doesn't require them to fight for the same government, they just have to be in the same country. Most civil wars involve the goverment fighting against another faction.
07-18-2014 04:43 PM
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