RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 11:55 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:39 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:29 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:12 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: The best 85 players already go to the P5. No change there. I don't think the transfer rules will part of autonomy. The G5, which have gone along with everything the P5 wanted have dug in their heels on 2 issues---scholarship limits and transfer rules. I don't think those issues will be part of autonomous P5 rules. Even if the transfer rules did become part of the P5 autonomous powers, there will be a ton of 2nd string P5 players looking to head to greener pastures at G5 schools if they don't have to sit out a year and likely could start at their new destination. Its probably not going to have as much of a negative effect on the G5 as you might think. It would likely tend really even things out making the typical G5 stronger on the front lines (where big solid 3-5 star guys are stuck on the bench at a power school would be more likely to go a G5) and be a G5 detriment at the high skill positions like QB (where a P5 would like to pluck a strong performer to fill in a weakness).
As it stands I really don't think all P5s out recruit all G5s -- at least for now. I do think there's some overlap at the bottom of the P5 and top of the G5. Plus there's always the pull of home town. Of course if there's the "competitive pay" you think is going to happen --- with the bowl and TV payouts structured as they are --- all P5s will probably out recruit all G5s. I mean you get paid more --- probably a lot more. As far as the transfer rules -- why would the G5 conferences "dig in their heels" on the issue if it really isn't going to hurt them?
Because we have invested way too much to be relegated
I don't understand --- *If* it doesn't really matter why would the G5 "dig in it's heels" on an issue that gives the players more freedom?
It does matter. There is cost involved in recruiting players etc and to keep them. It's the same reason pro players sign contracts. The g5's rosters could also be a mess. It would be difficult to maintain a winning program if every time someone that is good leaves. It doesn't give you time to develop or reload
Everybody has recruiting costs and I'm not sure that Alabama's isn't greater than Memphis' in football. And since teams are limited to 85 players -- gaining a player through transfer typically means another has to transfer somewhere else. I'd suspect this 'cost rule' be roughly a wash -- even if it were on the minds of the G5 (I suspect it isn't).
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:01 PM)CajunFanatico Wrote: They're going to dick around with college football until they've driven away a significant segment of the fan base.
Hasn't happened so far, what makes you think it will happen in the future?
Honestly, the only people who are at risk of being "driven away" is the incredible small group of fans who value things like "tradition," and "principle," and "history." Your average sports fan doesn't care about any of these things. Your average sports fan cares about Ohio State University and the Buckeyes (substitute any other Mega-program in here)... NOT because they went there--they likely went to Akron, or Cincinnati, or Miami of Ohio if they attended college at all...purely because OSU (substitute any other Mega program) is "THE" team most easily identified in their area. WE sit here and ask, "Why don't they 'dig' in their heels and stand up for the little guy..." but THEY don't care if UC, Akron, or MoO gets cut out of the game... THEY just want to watch OSU play Michigan, or LSU, or USC, etc...
IF the changes to the game really were going to drive "fans" off, we would already be seeing adverse affects. In fact, I think most (casual at least) "fans" are welcoming the changes.
Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:08 PM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:55 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:39 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:29 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote: As it stands I really don't think all P5s out recruit all G5s -- at least for now. I do think there's some overlap at the bottom of the P5 and top of the G5. Plus there's always the pull of home town. Of course if there's the "competitive pay" you think is going to happen --- with the bowl and TV payouts structured as they are --- all P5s will probably out recruit all G5s. I mean you get paid more --- probably a lot more. As far as the transfer rules -- why would the G5 conferences "dig in their heels" on the issue if it really isn't going to hurt them?
Because we have invested way too much to be relegated
I don't understand --- *If* it doesn't really matter why would the G5 "dig in it's heels" on an issue that gives the players more freedom?
It does matter. There is cost involved in recruiting players etc and to keep them. It's the same reason pro players sign contracts. The g5's rosters could also be a mess. It would be difficult to maintain a winning program if every time someone that is good leaves. It doesn't give you time to develop or reload
Everybody has recruiting costs and I'm not sure that Alabama's isn't greater than Memphis' in football. And since teams are limited to 85 players -- gaining a player through transfer typically means another has to transfer somewhere else. I'd suspect this 'cost rule' be roughly a wash -- even if it were on the minds of the G5 (I suspect it isn't).
I don't think so. If they have a disparate advantage recruiting costs would be less for an Alabama. The recruit could just up and leave for better benefits with another school and Alabama would just have to absorb the cost of the outgoing athletes scholarship unless they voluntarily transferred. What if that happened with Blake. He had one more year left of eligibility. It would gut the program and not allow us to reload. He chose to go to the nfl for millions of dollars to go pro. This is essentially the same thing. If that happens they need to pull the tax benefits
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(This post was last modified: 07-15-2014 12:22 PM by Knightbengal.)
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 11:29 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 11:12 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:
(07-15-2014 10:50 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:
(07-15-2014 10:21 AM)Attackcoog Wrote: ...That means the SEC might pay more than the Pac-12. It means that Big-10 might pay more than the ACC. The G5 will likely pay less than all the P5 conferences. Still, each team can only have 85 scholarship players---so there will still be some competitive balance. I have a feeling this is where we will likely end up.
You lost me on the "only" part of "only have 85 players" and the "some" part of "still be some competitive balance." What you described is one where the P5s 65 teams grab the best 85 players each --- leaving the rest for the G5. Then with the new transfer rules, when any of those 'rest' work out at the G5 level grabbing them also. If actual "competitive" pay to players determines this it's really bad news for the AAC.
The best 85 players already go to the P5. No change there. I don't think the transfer rules will part of autonomy. The G5, which have gone along with everything the P5 wanted have dug in their heels on 2 issues---scholarship limits and transfer rules. I don't think those issues will be part of autonomous P5 rules. Even if the transfer rules did become part of the P5 autonomous powers, there will be a ton of 2nd string P5 players looking to head to greener pastures at G5 schools if they don't have to sit out a year and likely could start at their new destination. Its probably not going to have as much of a negative effect on the G5 as you might think. It would likely tend really even things out making the typical G5 stronger on the front lines (where big solid 3-5 star guys are stuck on the bench at a power school would be more likely to go a G5) and be a G5 detriment at the high skill positions like QB (where a P5 would like to pluck a strong performer to fill in a weakness).
As it stands I really don't think all P5s out recruit all G5s -- at least for now. I do think there's some overlap at the bottom of the P5 and top of the G5. Plus there's always the pull of home town. Of course if there's the "competitive pay" you think is going to happen --- with the bowl and TV payouts structured as they are --- all P5s will probably out recruit all G5s. I mean you get paid more --- probably a lot more. As far as the transfer rules -- why would the G5 conferences "dig in their heels" on the issue if it really isn't going to hurt them?
I didn't say it wouldn't hurt them. I said it wouldn't be all that different. Currently, the vast majority of the time the P5 out recruits the G5. The G5--even under the currently discussed autonomy system, will be offering less than the P5 will be offering simply due to financial issues---so all this stuff you are afraid of is going to happen. The P5 WILL be offering more compensation than the G5--that's happening one way or another. The only difference between that and what I have proposed is that all P5 conferences will be offering different benefits. Every G5 conference will also offer different benefits. It will be a free market and every conference will be offering the package they develop independently from the other conferences. The G5 will still win a recruiting battle here and there (just like now) because the opportunity to play earlier will always appeal to some kids more than the benefits.
The transfer rule proposal would hurt, but the degree would be offset because many P5 players want to play. Those P5 bench guys that wont get to play will be MUCH more likely to head to a G5 if they don't have to sit out a year. I don't think its as much a concern as you think. Plus, I don't think the free transfer is going to happen anyway because I don't think most P5 schools outside of Alabama and Texas want it. If you're Texas Tech or Miss State, do you want Alabama to be able to steal your QB? I don't think free transfer would all that popular within the P5.
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2014 12:35 PM by Attackcoog.)
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:16 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:
(07-15-2014 12:01 PM)CajunFanatico Wrote: They're going to dick around with college football until they've driven away a significant segment of the fan base.
Hasn't happened so far, what makes you think it will happen in the future?
Honestly, the only people who are at risk of being "driven away" is the incredible small group of fans who value things like "tradition," and "principle," and "history." Your average sports fan doesn't care about any of these things. Your average sports fan cares about Ohio State University and the Buckeyes (substitute any other Mega-program in here)... NOT because they went there--they likely went to Akron, or Cincinnati, or Miami of Ohio if they attended college at all...purely because OSU (substitute any other Mega program) is "THE" team most easily identified in their area. WE sit here and ask, "Why don't they 'dig' in their heels and stand up for the little guy..." but THEY don't care if UC, Akron, or MoO gets cut out of the game... THEY just want to watch OSU play Michigan, or LSU, or USC, etc...
IF the changes to the game really were going to drive "fans" off, we would already be seeing adverse affects. In fact, I think most (casual at least) "fans" are welcoming the changes.
There's a lot of truth to that. I spent the bowl season with the wife's family. My wife's uncle (who is in his 70s and is what you would call a casual CFB fan) was going on about how ridiculous that Notre Dame was playing in the Pinstripe Bowl against Rutgers. The conversation went like so:
Him: It is ridiculous that Notre Dame is playing Rutgers in the Pinstripe Bowl. They should be playing in a bowl on New Year's Day against a school like Ohio State, Texas, Alabama, etc.
Me: Well Notre Dame didn't have a great year and this is the bowl they had a contractual tie in. Also Texas did not have a great year either. The schools that made it to the better bowls derserve it for the most part.
Him: It doesn't matter. On New Year's I want to watch the big boys play. I haven't even heard of some of these schools...
(without going further into a dialogue the next discussion was about all of the bowls and basically he felt there should only be about 10-12 bowl games max.. specifically the traditional bowls like the Rose, Sugar, Orange, etc.)
My wife's uncle is a cantankerous guy, but there are a lot of people out there like him. Thus, as we have discussed ad nauseum on these boards, unlike in CBB and in other sports, America does not root for the underdog in CFB. They really want to see about 20-25 schools and could give a crap about everyone else.
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2014 12:32 PM by CliftonAve.)
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 01:30 PM)bearcatfan Wrote: You can bet the P5 have an army of lawyers already working on how they can get this through as trouble free as they possibly can.
The only legal issue would be if a move to a separate division or exiting the NCAA would result in a breach of contract, e.g., if the P5 decided to leave as of 2017, and set up there own playoff system, thus breaching the agreement they signed with the G5 conferences setting up the CFP that will run for the next 12 years.
But even the P5 wouldn't be dumb enough to breach a contract, so I doubt legal issues are likely to arise.
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:16 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:
(07-15-2014 12:01 PM)CajunFanatico Wrote: They're going to dick around with college football until they've driven away a significant segment of the fan base.
Hasn't happened so far, what makes you think it will happen in the future?
I may be mistaken but I think I've heard more than one source saying that attendance is down at many major college football venues. Don't know if that's really the case and have no clue the cause if true.
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:16 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:
(07-15-2014 12:01 PM)CajunFanatico Wrote: They're going to dick around with college football until they've driven away a significant segment of the fan base.
Hasn't happened so far, what makes you think it will happen in the future?
I may be mistaken but I think I've heard more than one source saying that attendance is down at many major college football venues. Don't know if that's really the case and have no clue the cause if true.
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 12:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:
(07-15-2014 10:07 AM)jaredf29 Wrote:
(07-15-2014 09:50 AM)CajunFanatico Wrote: Does anyone really believe this has anything to with the welfare of student athletes?
Nope but that's how they're going to continue selling it. Personally, I hope they get what they want so that all the lawsuits can begin.
Lawsuits by who? Athletes? That might have impact. G5 conferences? Dead on Arrival.
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Wrong, anyone and everyone. The G5 can and will file monopoly lawsuits. Cause I actually believe that universities are going to spend hundreds millions on campus upgrades and sport facilities but then completely lie down bc the P5 says so.
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 10:33 AM)Pirateoracle Wrote: Greed has blinded these pukes..mark it down, once they celebrate their autonomous victory the Feds will be on them like white on rice. Anti-trust will want that wealth split up and spread out..non profit status will be attacked by Irs..game on greedy pigs will ruin it all...btw looks like SEC network gonna struggle..limited market people only want it during 15 or 16 weeks at football season..get it free on espn
Nope..... Any way you slice it the P5 will win. The Golden rule in businesss. is......He who hath the gold makes the rules and the P5 has the gold
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 02:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:
(07-15-2014 01:30 PM)bearcatfan Wrote: You can bet the P5 have an army of lawyers already working on how they can get this through as trouble free as they possibly can.
The only legal issue would be if a move to a separate division or exiting the NCAA would result in a breach of contract, e.g., if the P5 decided to leave as of 2017, and set up there own playoff system, thus breaching the agreement they signed with the G5 conferences setting up the CFP that will run for the next 12 years.
But even the P5 wouldn't be dumb enough to breach a contract, so I doubt legal issues are likely to arise.
You are very naïve. The conventional wisdom for years was that the O'Banon case was just a nuisance and had no chance. Most view it just the opposite now and believe the O'Bannon will actually win their case. The P5 just carved our 85 million dollars a year along with a prized access slot in the new CFP and handed it to the G5. They didn't do that because they are such nice guys. The P5 has been anything but nice guys over the last 20 years. They did it because they know there is significant danger in cutting out the G5. If they split there will be a number of lawsuits and the G5 plaintiffs will have a very good chance of winning. A split would literally destroy the G5---so the potential damages that the P5 could be looking at if they lost such a case could be astronomical. The slight increase in dollars isn't worth the risk to the P5.
While you may believe that in a split scenerio, a G5 collusion/anit-trust case is "DOA"---the actions of the P5 indicate that the P5 doesn't share the same view.
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2014 03:40 PM by Attackcoog.)
RE: Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
(07-15-2014 01:30 PM)bearcatfan Wrote: You can bet the P5 have an army of lawyers already working on how they can get this through as trouble free as they possibly can.
So tell me, how will their lawyers restore the tax exempt status the schools will lose after leaving NCAA?
Short answer: they won't. Hence, threat to leave and form own association is hollow and a non-starter. Slive and his cohorts need to stop their bull...t threats and negotiate better.
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Slive - comments at SEC Media Day / re Autonomy, The P5, Division 4
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