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Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #21
Re: RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:02 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 01:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I don't get how concealed carry would lower the murder rate. Don't gang members all carry concealed? They seem to be shooting other up all the time.

a law abiding citizen is less likely to get jacked, robbed, beaten if perps think they are carrying. Same deal for someone breaking in a home or a home invasion. Perps want easy safe targets. They don't want to get shot.

How are they going to know if the weapon is concealed?
You really are dense. They don't have to know, just know there's a greater possibility.
07-09-2014 02:05 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'
07-09-2014 02:05 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.
07-09-2014 02:06 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?
07-09-2014 02:06 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!
07-09-2014 02:08 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

That still doesn't seem to explain the theory that carrying concealed weapons lowers the murder rate. Gang violence alone seems to dispell that theory.
07-09-2014 02:10 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:08 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!

Because folks like yourself would just prefer to get curb stomped?
07-09-2014 02:10 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

That still doesn't seem to explain the theory that carrying concealed weapons lowers the murder rate. Gang violence alone seems to dispell that theory.

The gang violence isn't related to the CCP folks though.

Gang members kill each other and poor folks in the wrong place at the wrong time. CCP don't impact that because those folks don't have permits.

The CCPs only have an impact on a certain portion of the overall crime rate.
07-09-2014 02:12 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:08 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!

You have to take approved classes, target practice etc.
http://www.civiliandefenseacademy.com/cl...ourse.html
07-09-2014 02:13 PM
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Old Dominion Online
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Post: #30
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.
07-09-2014 02:13 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:08 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!

You have to take approved classes, target practice etc.
http://www.civiliandefenseacademy.com/cl...ourse.html

I think we both know that taking a course and shooting at an outline are a long, long way from firing a weapon in self defense. Besides, apparently you didn't get my sarcasm.
07-09-2014 02:16 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

And you don't buy the statistical fact that deaths from self defense don't count in the murder column?

We are, after all, talking about the statistics. The individual situations aren't terribly important.

We already have two clear cut scenarios acting as opposites.
07-09-2014 02:17 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

All the more reason to pack heat and defend yourself. No way to know if permit holders are lousy shots. The best shooters practice, some permit holders practice often other do not. Can't lump in a bar owner who packs for protection vs. a gun collector enthusiast who hits the target range once a week. Nice try though.
07-09-2014 02:19 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:16 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:08 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!

You have to take approved classes, target practice etc.
http://www.civiliandefenseacademy.com/cl...ourse.html

I think we both know that taking a course and shooting at an outline are a long, long way from firing a weapon in self defense. Besides, apparently you didn't get my sarcasm.

Nope I didn't
07-09-2014 02:20 PM
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Old Dominion Online
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Post: #35
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

And you don't buy the statistical fact that deaths from self defense don't count in the murder column?

We are, after all, talking about the statistics. The individual situations aren't terribly important.

We already have two clear cut scenarios acting as opposites.

You and the other guy need to read a little slower. You are both misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't give a shiiit about how you count the rate. dead is dead.
07-09-2014 02:21 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

Cleaning FEMA trailers counts as being a law officer? Who would have thought.
07-09-2014 02:21 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:21 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

And you don't buy the statistical fact that deaths from self defense don't count in the murder column?

We are, after all, talking about the statistics. The individual situations aren't terribly important.

We already have two clear cut scenarios acting as opposites.

You and the other guy need to read a little slower. You are both misinterpreting what I'm saying. I don't give a shiiit about how you count the rate. dead is dead.

Oh okay. Thanks for showing how you were the guy sitting outside the important people rooms those 8 years.

Murdered and dead are not synonymous.
07-09-2014 02:22 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

That still doesn't seem to explain the theory that carrying concealed weapons lowers the murder rate. Gang violence alone seems to dispell that theory.

The gang violence isn't related to the CCP folks though.

Gang members kill each other and poor folks in the wrong place at the wrong time. CCP don't impact that because those folks don't have permits.

The CCPs only have an impact on a certain portion of the overall crime rate.

If this is true then what portion of the overall crime rate does CCP impact and more specifically, what portion of the overall murder rate does the CCP impact?
07-09-2014 02:42 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:12 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

That still doesn't seem to explain the theory that carrying concealed weapons lowers the murder rate. Gang violence alone seems to dispell that theory.

The gang violence isn't related to the CCP folks though.

Gang members kill each other and poor folks in the wrong place at the wrong time. CCP don't impact that because those folks don't have permits.

The CCPs only have an impact on a certain portion of the overall crime rate.

If this is true then what portion of the overall crime rate does CCP impact and more specifically, what portion of the overall murder rate does the CCP impact?

You'd have to look at the specific numbers. The CCPs just aren't lowering or impacting the vast majority of the deaths which are gang related.
07-09-2014 02:45 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Murder rate drops as concealed carry permits rise
(07-09-2014 02:21 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:13 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(07-09-2014 02:06 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Or, maybe most of the new permit holders are lousy shots. Not buying the preventive effect at all. Most crimes are crimes of passion, opportunity and impulse. People don't think about whether some one is packing before they act out.

Personal experience?

Yep, 8 years as a federal law officer.

Cleaning FEMA trailers counts as being a law officer? Who would have thought.

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07-09-2014 02:55 PM
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