Since the MAC is so stable and has low travel costs.
Could they be better off with a Split.
Like NIU, WMU, BALL ST, OHIO teaming up with some Western to Southern schools .

The seven or eight teams left can add Eastern schools.
Not likely to happen just curious if they would benefit.
One big plus would be two occ rivalry games for WMU for example.

I know I made the argument against it already I don't really care.
I just think long term they could benefit With added markets .

What?

The MAC is stable and has low travel costs, would they better off if they weren't stable and had higher travel costs?

Do you really want an answer to this question?

I would think if you told college football experts back in 1984 that the MAC would still be a viable league at the top level of college football many of them would be surprised. For its first decade of 1-AA play the MAC was the red headed stepchild of the top level of football, rarely acknowledged to be a part of it.

The MAC was never affected by the formation of the Big East 1.0 or CUSA 1.0 football conferences in the early 90's. They did not lose even one school to those conferences. The only school at the time that remotely had a chance to move up was Toledo with a stellar glass bowl and they talked with CUSA but didn't just happen.

Once the independents were snatched up going the indy route was no longer a desired option. Conferences began to have the upper hand in attracting membership. NIU couldn't find another home so ended up returning to the MAC. Buffalo got into the MAC due to a stadium built for the world university games. Marshall wanted CUSA but with a smaller market had to settle for the MAC. UCF even became desperate enough to join the MAC FB-Only and was about to move all sports to the MAC until CUSA 2.0 happened.

Then Big East 2.0/CUSA 2.0 movement occurred 10 years ago. The Big East raided CUSA of its basketball power. CUSA added 4 WAC (UTEP, SMU, Rice, Tulsa) and 2 MAC schools as a replacement (Marshall, UCF). After 10 years of membership growth adding NIU, Buffalo, Marshall and UCF the MAC finally lost two of those schools. I have inside sources that have said that Toledo also had a standing offer to join CUSA at the time but declined.

Most recently was Big East 3.0/CUSA 3.0 movement. This time instead of being raided by CUSA, the MAC was raided by the Big East losing Temple. Ohio I know was also looking at a move to the Big East. For a school to make a move it has to be a clear athletic AND academic jump. What has happened is that CUSA has been decimated to the point where they've had to bring in 4 SBC schools and 2 FCS call ups, schools of even lower caliber than the MAC. Instead of a MAC school potentially looking to slide up to the 8th best conference in CUSA the only real upgrade option is the #6 best conference in the AAC.

As of right now the jury is still out on whether the AAC is even going to make it plus there is a new MAC TV deal set to be signed by the start of September. UMass was told to leave the conference, further boosting conference strength. The MAC has made membership additions to Olympic sports like getting Missouri that have helped the conference. The MAC has been known to be a stable conference now has an unprecedented level of stability. Five bowl tie-ins, a dream once thought unobtainable for the conference is now a reality. A CFP revenue sharing deal that justifies the MAC at the FBS level.

The question is what does the future hold? Will the G5 continue to cooperate as they did with bowls or will dynamics eventually usher in more instability? The goal for the MAC was to have what the old WAC did. Leadership thought that with the size of the universities they have that there should be no reason why they couldn't get a TV deal like the old WAC 16, for a few million a year. Today the MAC asks the question why can't we have with the MWC and AAC have in football AND in basketball? They want to have 2-3 schools in the dance every year and win access bowls. The question is can they get there or will the AAC pluck a few schools away first?

A dynamic that could come into play is the return of the Independent. If a school like UConn decided that it wanted to join the Big East in basketball and become an Independent they would have BYU, Army and UMass to play every year. If the AAC died with UC to the ACC and Memphis/UConn to the Big East but Indy in football that might open the door for other Eastern independents. Ohio and Buffalo to the A10 and Indy in football. Then you start to build a new generation of Eastern Independents that could play football among themselves. If the G5 signed a TV deal as a group that would cover independents then you have a wedge for more independents forming. With bowl saturation as it is you don't need to have a conference anymore to earn a tie and in fact it could give you leverage in seeking one.

Memphis (Big East)
Ohio (Atlantic 10)
Buffalo (Atlantic 10)
Army (Patriot)
UMass (Atlantic 10)
UConn (Big East)
Navy (Patriot)
BYU (West Coast)
Air Force (West Coast)

Then you have a very solid group of Independents that would be a competitive group as any among the G5 while staying in a regional basketball configuration. This quite honestly is going to be more in the interest of BYU than joining the AAC. It would require both the AAC to fail and the MAC to fail to get schools like Ohio and Buffalo interested in taking a risk as an independent.

(07-02-2014 07:40 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The MAC is stable and has low travel costs, would they better off if they weren't stable and had higher travel costs?

Do you really want an answer to this question?

The time for the MAC to have considered a split was around the time of Marshall and UCF's departure for CUSA 2.0.

In order to save Marshall and UCF, the MAC splits forming the American 0.5 with NIU, WMU, Toledo, Miami, Ohio, Kent St, Buffalo, Marshall, UCF and then adding to that Memphis to anchor the hoops conference. Then by 2008 Temple and UMass agree to join all sports.

AAC West: NIU, WMU, Toledo, Memphis, Miami, Marshall
AAC East: Ohio, Kent St, Buffalo, UMass, Temple, UCF

That was the time back in 2005 for the MAC to try something like that, form the AAC before the AAC ever formed. Totally undercut the formation of CUSA 2.0. If the MAC wanted to chase G5 schools Memphis, Temple and UCF are the ones that are prizes, not Sun Belt schools.

I like the way MAC schools brought in schools to protect them from realinement.
and yes MAC needs a bigger footprint, not keeping UMASS was a mistake,
UMASS was the only chance MAC had of getting Army.
ILLST & MissouriSt streatch conf out west & puts dakato's in reach
I would think Marshall might reconsider
there slew of BB onlies that would help
? why can't MAC sign tier 3 rights to B-10 network

I guess one way it could have happened is four MAC schools join the four remaining SBC schools.

UL
ULM
Troy
ARK ST
Ohio
NIU
Ball ST
WMU

The twelve four a conference championship game rule would have made that difficult. The idea is getting away from the two state eight team model. I know it is both a strength and a weakness.

Hey its a realignment board just a scenario.

(07-02-2014 05:47 PM)MJG Wrote:  Since the MAC is so stable and has low travel costs.
Could they be better off with a Split.
Like NIU, WMU, BALL ST, OHIO teaming up with some Western to Southern schools .

The seven or eight teams left can add Eastern schools.
Not likely to happen just curious if they would benefit.
One big plus would be two occ rivalry games for WMU for example.

Its too late for a split. Temple and UCF are the two of the largest prizes in the G5 East and they are now in the AAC all sports with other prizes like UConn, Memphis and UC. The AAC already exploited the idea. The MAC never had the will to move beyond the bus league format when it had momentum 10 years ago with UCF on the verge of joining the MAC all sports and Kent St recently with an Elite 8 run in basketball.

I don't see the MAC even lifting a finger until 2020. At that point they could try to pick off Charlotte and Old Dominion from CUSA once they get tired of playing in a 1 bid Texas based conference. With ODU try to get an Oyster Bowl going. I doubt Marshall would be given a 3rd chance under any circumstances. Too poor of a market. They moved into CUSA while the iron was hot and now they are stuck in a quasi-FCS league. If I were the MAC I would have no interest in adding more directionals as the league has plenty as it is.

(07-02-2014 08:22 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  I like the way MAC schools brought in schools to protect them from realinement.
and yes MAC needs a bigger footprint, not keeping UMASS was a mistake,
UMASS was the only chance MAC had of getting Army.
ILLST & MissouriSt streatch conf out west & puts dakato's in reach
I would think Marshall might reconsider
there slew of BB onlies that would help
? why can't MAC sign tier 3 rights to B-10 network

The MAC brought in Marshall because at the time there was a very good possibility of the MAC losing schools because of attendance requirements. UCF and Temple were added more for strategic growth reasons. The MAC was too conservative with its moves and should have split 10 years ago if it was going to do it.

Illinois St is going to be blocked by NIU. Missouri St is in the wrong corner of the state for the MAC to be interested. If they were in NE Missouri they would be much more attractive to the MAC. Marshall would reconsider but the MAC will not. Too small of a market and the academics aren't there. I have thought that UIC and Milwaukee from the Horizon League might be beneficial but I don't see the MAC going down the non-football road again.

The answer from a conference network standpoint would be for the MAC to partner with the AAC, MWC, CUSA and SBC on a G5 network. The B1G network doesn't need the MAC. One other possibility is for the MAC to go junior partner on the ACC network to get some exposure in the Mid Atlantic and Southeast. The ACC may feel that the ACC is too much of a competitor, CUSA/SBC is no-name and the MAC could at least help sell the network in the Midwest where they have ND and Louisville.

(07-02-2014 08:23 PM)MJG Wrote:  I guess one way it could have happened is four MAC schools join the four remaining SBC schools.

UL
ULM
Troy
ARK ST
Ohio
NIU
Ball ST
WMU

The twelve four a conference championship game rule would have made that difficult. The idea is getting away from the two state eight team model. I know it is both a strength and a weakness.

Hey its a realignment board just a scenario.

The problem is I don't see a TV deal worth more than 10 cents for that grouping. Ohio, NIU, Ball St, WMU would rather play Toledo, Miami, Kent St and Buffalo than ULM, ULL, Troy and Ark State. In the case of WMU and Toledo they would rather play CMU than BSU.

EMU/Akron have weak football but solid basketball and Olympic sports. BGSU is the defending MAC Football Champion. If the MAC could pare down to 8 or 9 schools nobody could agree who should be left out of the group. It would never make a difference anyway.

(07-02-2014 09:08 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-02-2014 08:23 PM)MJG Wrote:  I guess one way it could have happened is four MAC schools join the four remaining SBC schools.

UL
ULM
Troy
ARK ST
Ohio
NIU
Ball ST
WMU

The twelve four a conference championship game rule would have made that difficult. The idea is getting away from the two state eight team model. I know it is both a strength and a weakness.

Hey its a realignment board just a scenario.

The problem is I don't see a TV deal worth more than 10 cents for that grouping. Ohio, NIU, Ball St, WMU would rather play Toledo, Miami, Kent St and Buffalo than ULM, ULL, Troy and Ark State. In the case of WMU and Toledo they would rather play CMU than BSU.

EMU/Akron have weak football but solid basketball and Olympic sports. BGSU is the defending MAC Football Champion. If the MAC could pare down to 8 or 9 schools nobody could agree who should be left out of the group. It would never make a difference anyway.

I guess playing on Wednesday would be the T.V. deal same as now.

I was thinking having more states in the conference for more recruiting and markets would help. The MAC is fine like it is but only a split would change the bus league aspect. I know that is also a positive especially for oly sports.

Joining with another conference and adding a few teams is how it could have happened.My guess is if a unlikely split occurred the OOC games would be mostly old MAC rivals.Most conferences have nine or ten states not five like the MAC .

Issue with the MAC is the fan bases and mirroring the Big Ten footprint. Their students graduates wanted to go to big ten schools.
And having games on Wed and some Tuesday nights kills any alumni attendance.

(07-02-2014 08:23 PM)MJG Wrote:  I guess one way it could have happened is four MAC schools join the four remaining SBC schools.

UL
ULM
Troy
ARK ST
Ohio
NIU
Ball ST
WMU

The twelve four a conference championship game rule would have made that difficult. The idea is getting away from the two state eight team model. I know it is both a strength and a weakness.

Hey its a realignment board just a scenario.

You'd never be able to convince the 4 SBC schools to give up regular games in Georgia and Texas for games in Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio, and likewise there is no way the MAC schools would want to play the SBC schools.

This isn't like a CUSA/SBC situation which could be possible given general geographic location...without a massive TV deal there is no incentive for the SBC/MAC to merge.

(07-03-2014 11:55 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Issue with the MAC is the fan bases and mirroring the Big Ten footprint. Their students graduates wanted to go to big ten schools.
And having games on Wed and some Tuesday nights kills any alumni attendance.

there's a direct correlation between winning and alumni attendance but there's no correlation between alumni attendance and scheduling. In fact, because ESPN prefers to have the better teams showcased in the weeknight games the MAC teams that play the most weeknight games also tend to have the highest average attendance. MACtion does not kill alumni attendance.

(07-04-2014 06:49 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(07-03-2014 11:55 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Issue with the MAC is the fan bases and mirroring the Big Ten footprint. Their students graduates wanted to go to big ten schools.
And having games on Wed and some Tuesday nights kills any alumni attendance.

there's a direct correlation between winning and alumni attendance but there's no correlation between alumni attendance and scheduling. In fact, because ESPN prefers to have the better teams showcased in the weeknight games the MAC teams that play the most weeknight games also tend to have the highest average attendance. MACtion does not kill alumni attendance.

Sometimes, maybe even often, ESPN gets lucky and pics the right matchups for mac teams.
Consistent is the best indicator. But because a Wed night game, as an example, between BGSU and Ohio draws well, that same game might might draw better on Saturday and fans and Alums prefer a Saturday.

(07-03-2014 11:55 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Issue with the MAC is the fan bases and mirroring the Big Ten footprint. Their students graduates wanted to go to big ten schools.
And having games on Wed and some Tuesday nights kills any alumni attendance.

While this may be somewhat true. I knew a lot of people including me who wanted to go to NIU and not a big ten school like illinois

(07-03-2014 11:57 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(07-02-2014 08:23 PM)MJG Wrote:  I guess one way it could have happened is four MAC schools join the four remaining SBC schools.

UL
ULM
Troy
ARK ST
Ohio
NIU
Ball ST
WMU

The twelve four a conference championship game rule would have made that difficult. The idea is getting away from the two state eight team model. I know it is both a strength and a weakness.

Hey its a realignment board just a scenario.

You'd never be able to convince the 4 SBC schools to give up regular games in Georgia and Texas for games in Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio, and likewise there is no way the MAC schools would want to play the SBC schools.

This isn't like a CUSA/SBC situation which could be possible given general geographic location...without a massive TV deal there is no incentive for the SBC/MAC to merge.

The reason why the G5 was ever able to get TV deals in the first place is because the WAC and and Southern Independents (much of current AAC) was part of the CFA. The CFA was about a 1 million per school TV payout and that is what the ACC and SEC were also earning while part of it. That is how the MWC and CUSA initially justified their 1 million per school TV deal numbers.

In the case of the AAC you have a set of former Big East schools in there that were making previously about 5 million per year in TV plus some traditionally solid football with multiple Top 25 teams so that is why they are pulling in 1.7 million per school. The MWC-12 has a bonus structure TV that can net a school as high as 3 million per school but you can be stuck receiving 1 million if you are never on TV. CUSA will probably be at 1 million per school again because it has a boat load of TV markets and it always has been. The MAC might be looking to move to the MWC model with its next TV deal to reward schools that play on TV and they might get something like that only because they've been loyal mid week partners.

There is no TV potential for a startup conference with 4 MAC/4 SBC schools. ESPN would look at that and laugh while it signs the remaining MAC and SBC schools to better TV deals.

(07-04-2014 08:19 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Sometimes, maybe even often, ESPN gets lucky and pics the right matchups for mac teams.
Consistent is the best indicator. But because a Wed night game, as an example, between BGSU and Ohio draws well, that same game might might draw better on Saturday and fans and Alums prefer a Saturday.

MAC new TV deal is starting to show in the MAC moving all the MAC rivalry games to November to ensure ESPN has more premium matchups. Also, the MAC and ESPN have been experimenting with double headers on Wednesday's where two games are scheduled at the same time and just prior to the game week ESPN selects the most appealing match-up for ESPN2 (should be ESPN in the future deal) and then relegates the other to ESPNU/ESPN3. These ensure ESPN has the more premium content for MACtion ratings. The MAC has been willing to accomodate as part of negotiations for the new TV deal which Cleveland Newspaper said should be inked by football season.

As far as the notion of Wednesday Night games not being as big of a draw as Saturday games, yes this is true now, but the longer the MAC continues to have these games and the more premium matchups and ESPN continues to promote them as Wednesday Night MACtion then the more appealing they become. You ever trying getting tickets for a NFL Monday Night Football game? They are harder to get than a Sunday afternoon game, not because they are ideal to go to with work the next morning, but rather because Monday Night Football (on ESPN) has become a bigger deal than the Sunday games. NFL teams fight over having those week-night football games on MNF. NFL is now trying the same strategy on the Thursday Night games by demanding the bidders of the TNF games only be by mainstream broadcast. So CBS picked it up (they told TNT Turner to not even bid)

Thats what ESPN and the MAC are doing with "Welcome to Wednesday Night Football on ESPN - #MACtion" and it will show in the new contract......

Still in progress: That would be talks between the Mid-American Conference and ESPN on a future TV deal. According to MAC officials, those talks, expected to come to fruition by the end of the spring, might not be complete until the dawn of football season.

Evidence of those conversations can already be seen in the bowl game partnerships which will begin following this season, and in the upcoming football schedule. ESPN has moved all of the 'rivalry' games around the league to late in the season to take advantage of the popular midweek TV window in November.
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/college/...e_gam.html

(07-04-2014 09:48 AM)nbcards Wrote:  

(07-03-2014 11:55 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Issue with the MAC is the fan bases and mirroring the Big Ten footprint. Their students graduates wanted to go to big ten schools.
And having games on Wed and some Tuesday nights kills any alumni attendance.

While this may be somewhat true. I knew a lot of people including me who wanted to go to NIU and not a big ten school like illinois

And I know Miami grads that wanted Miami as their first choice also, but they never go back for football game.....maybe UC - Miami, half of them are UC basketball fans.