(07-02-2014 09:23 AM)EagleX Wrote:  libertarians/Libertarians are notoriously slippery when it comes to taking responsibility for their real world actions, partly because there really aren't any. You hear it all the time; "I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a libertarian", "that's not me, that's some other guy", "that can't be me, my principles are pure" (only because they never actually get put into practice -- anything is pure when it only exists in theory). wherever the fault lies for whatever just happened, it certainly wasn't they that did it. just ask them.

libertarians wander around seemingly oblivious to the practical implications of absolute liberty. and that leads to one of the many inherent contradictions in the foundation of the libertarian impulse; that they could only exist in the stable, ordered (in the burkean sense), society that conservative republicans (alone) advocate -- those would be the "social conservatives" that the libertarians/Libertarians seem to most despise. I'll say it again; the libertarian/Libertarian impulse would simply not, in fact, could not, exist if not for the social conditions created by traditional conservatives.

. . . which is why I have very little regard for libertarians. they're the termites in the house of state.

Libertarians believe in personal liberty... not gov't mandated morals. If you aren't hurting me or my property, then go right ahead. The moment you mess with me or my property then there is a problem.

By default, according to the ridiculous labels that both parties have put in place, a libertarian is conservative and liberal at the same time. Fiscally, we want a smaller gov't. Neither party wants that. Socially, we don't want to tell anyone what to do. Neither party wants that either.

Spend our own money in our own way... don't take my money then spend it to attack my civil liberties (NSA).

I obviously can't be completely pure in that belief, just as no Democrat or Republican can fully agree with every party policy. I do think public education is important (too many people would otherwise not get any kind of education and we'd be screwed as a country). Police, fire, sewer, water, infrastructure, and defense are all for the greater good and keep the economy running. Bridges to nowhere, money wasted in companies that can't possibly succeed (Solyndra), Obamacare, big business cronyism, union cronyism, etc., etc... are not good for any of us.

Get rid of the income tax, as it is written to help the rich and hurts the middle class. Go straight to a consumption tax. Get rid of the business income tax too... they pay the consumption tax for all their raw materials.

Get rid of the war on drugs, it isn't working and the amount of money we waste on jailing people for self inflicted crimes is ridiculous.

Get rid of all lobbyists... especially those in the department of defense. They have us building weapons that have no chance of being on budget, and then holding us by the balls by saying they have to continue being funded or they'll lay off 50% of their work force (tanks anyone?).

Stop giving money to other countries when we currently have a deficit. Stop being the world's police force. Do you think the middle east is going to have all these problems if they are going to lose all their income from selling oil? They'll figure their sh!t out very quickly then as none of them will have any money. Instead we continue to pay for their security and they continue to act like teenage boys hopped on up testosterone.

(07-02-2014 09:39 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(07-02-2014 09:23 AM)EagleX Wrote:  libertarians/Libertarians are notoriously slippery when it comes to taking responsibility for their real world actions, partly because there really aren't any. You hear it all the time; "I'm not a Libertarian, I'm a libertarian", "that's not me, that's some other guy", "that can't be me, my principles are pure" (only because they never actually get put into practice -- anything is pure when it only exists in theory). wherever the fault lies for whatever just happened, it certainly wasn't they that did it. just ask them.

libertarians wander around seemingly oblivious to the practical implications of absolute liberty. and that leads to one of the many inherent contradictions in the foundation of the libertarian impulse; that they could only exist in the stable, ordered (in the burkean sense), society that conservative republicans (alone) advocate -- those would be the "social conservatives" that the libertarians/Libertarians seem to most despise. I'll say it again; the libertarian/Libertarian impulse would simply not, in fact, could not, exist if not for the social conditions created by traditional conservatives.

. . . which is why I have very little regard for libertarians. they're the termites in the house of state.

Libertarians believe in personal liberty... not gov't mandated morals. If you aren't hurting me or my property, then go right ahead. The moment you mess with me or my property then there is a problem.

By default, according to the ridiculous labels that both parties have put in place, a libertarian is conservative and liberal at the same time. Fiscally, we want a smaller gov't. Neither party wants that. Socially, we don't want to tell anyone what to do. Neither party wants that either.

Spend our own money in our own way... don't take my money then spend it to attack my civil liberties (NSA).

I obviously can't be completely pure in that belief, just as no Democrat or Republican can fully agree with every party policy. I do think public education is important (too many people would otherwise not get any kind of education and we'd be screwed as a country). Police, fire, sewer, water, infrastructure, and defense are all for the greater good and keep the economy running. Bridges to nowhere, money wasted in companies that can't possibly succeed (Solyndra), Obamacare, big business cronyism, union cronyism, etc., etc... are not good for any of us.

Get rid of the income tax, as it is written to help the rich and hurts the middle class. Go straight to a consumption tax. Get rid of the business income tax too... they pay the consumption tax for all their raw materials.

Get rid of the war on drugs, it isn't working and the amount of money we waste on jailing people for self inflicted crimes is ridiculous.

Get rid of all lobbyists... especially those in the department of defense. They have us building weapons that have no chance of being on budget, and then holding us by the balls by saying they have to continue being funded or they'll lay off 50% of their work force (tanks anyone?).

Stop giving money to other countries when we currently have a deficit. Stop being the world's police force. Do you think the middle east is going to have all these problems if they are going to lose all their income from selling oil? They'll figure their sh!t out very quickly then as none of them will have any money. Instead we continue to pay for their security and they continue to act like teenage boys hopped on up testosterone.

your honor, the prosecution rests.

(07-02-2014 09:37 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  Again, what does this rant have to do with Hobby Lobby and the conservatives taking back a right the Democrats were trying to steal from us all?

You are the person who brought up the Libertarians.

oklalittledixie Wrote:The point the libertarians keep missing is that this was a disguised assault by the radical left against the religious community. This was never a debate about women's rights vs freedoms.

All we did was point out that Libertarians don't care if it was the radical left versus the religious community or the other way around. The law shouldn't be in place to begin with as it oversteps the bounds of gov't.

Quote:You can't answer that. All you have is your intravenously fed talking points. WTF does this case have to do with the Republicans? Please attempt to answer that because I have no idea what the purpose of your comments are? This is a private company owned by social conservatives that just checkmated the American left. What is your deal?

As we've said several time in this thread. If the libertarians had their way the ACA would not be there. At all. You try to force us to "thank the Republican's for giving us back our rights" when in reality 99.9% of us are still screwed. Remove the ACA. Remove the smoking bans put in place on small businesses too while you are at it. Remove the entire idea of marriage as part of gov't while you are at it too.

(07-02-2014 09:41 AM)EagleX Wrote:  your honor, the prosecution rests.

But you seemingly have a belief that there is a party for small gov't. There isn't. There are 2 parties for bigger gov't... they just have different ideas for where to grow the gov't. Whether it is through the military, the police state, medical coverage, homeland security, welfare, public housing... both parties want to grow something. Neither wants to balance the budget. That is why we are so upset about both parties.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if we are socially conservative or liberal... it matters that the money matters are taken care of. Otherwise we all are screwed. Neither party has done a damn thing to take care of the financial issues of our country and neither has an interest in doing that, obviously.

OK, okie, the conservatives saved the day, and I agree with the decisions. And for the liberals attacking Hobby Lobby, some questions. Exactly what is Hobby Lobby preventing its employees from doing? Can you work at Hobby Lobby and use contraception or birth control? Can you work at Hobby Lobby and use one of the forms of birth control that Hobby Lobby excludes from coverage? Can you work at Hobby Lobby and have an abortion? The answers to all these questions is of course yes. Hobby Lobby is entirely consistent with the libertarian position that abortion should be legal, but you don't have a right to make somebody else pay for your abortion.

Libertarians don't quarrel with conservatives, at least not on fiscal issues. The problem is that republicans aren't conservatives, at least not on fiscal issues.