(06-30-2014 12:03 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  Soccer fans and aficionados, help me here: On a Nigerian corner kick late in today's first half, a French defender bear hugs his Nigerian mark with both arms tightly around his chest, preventing him from stepping back or jumping to reach the ball, which was coming down just over his head. How is this not a foul? And if it were called, wouldn't it be a penalty kick, since it was "in the box"? If so, why would a presumably veteran and skilled defender take such a huge risk of making a blatant bear hug? It's hard to imagine that none of the refs saw it either.

I look forward to an explanation of this tactic.

Refs miss a lot.

They let entirely too much grabbing and pushing and shoving go for my taste, and my sense is that it's getting worse over time, not better.

(06-30-2014 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 12:03 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  Soccer fans and aficionados, help me here: On a Nigerian corner kick late in today's first half, a French defender bear hugs his Nigerian mark with both arms tightly around his chest, preventing him from stepping back or jumping to reach the ball, which was coming down just over his head. .

Refs miss a lot.
They let entirely too much grabbing and pushing and shoving go for my taste, and my sense is that it's getting worse over time, not better.

Some fouls are missed (not seen), and some are tolerated (seen but not assessed). Those are two different things. The reality may be a combination of both, but my hunch is that at the elite level, there is lot more intentional toleration and less outright missing than most fans realize.

And before anyone crucifies the officials for tolerating fouls that they see, please remember that at this level, doing so is probably not the officials' decision. If they are tolerating fouls, it is most likely because they have been told (with varying degrees of explicitness) to do so.

(06-30-2014 12:03 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  Soccer fans and aficionados, help me here: On a Nigerian corner kick late in today's first half, a French defender bear hugs his Nigerian mark with both arms tightly around his chest, preventing him from stepping back or jumping to reach the ball, which was coming down just over his head.

I haven't seen the play, so this is just going off of your description.

Quote:How is this not a foul?

It certainly was a foul that probably should have been called.

Quote:And if it were called, wouldn't it be a penalty kick, since it was "in the box"?

Yes, holding a player results in a direct free kick, which would have been a penalty kick because it was in the box.
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballde...90868.html

Quote:If so, why would a presumably veteran and skilled defender take such a huge risk of making a blatant bear hug?

This is a tough question. There are more subtle ways to reduce a player's ability to jump. But if it wasn't the first corner of the game, and the ref had been allowing progressively more contact during corners, the defender might have felt fairly comfortable that he would be able to get away with it.

Another possibility is that he was beat on the play and felt that Nigeria would score unless he committed the foul. This comes into play more towards the end of the game (which I realize this wasn't), but sometimes it's better to concede a penalty kick rather than let in a goal, especially if it's something the defender is unlikely to get a red card for. Think a corner back committing obvious pass interference rather than being beaten for a long touch down.

As an example, during the last World Cup Suarez (he of recent gastronomical infamy) saved an otherwise certain goal by using his hands. He was kicked out of the game, but the other team missed the penalty kick and Uruguay was ultimately able to win the game.

Quote:It's hard to imagine that none of the refs saw it either.
I look forward to an explanation of this tactic.

One of the assistant refs was positioned at midfield and has virtually no responsibility on the play. The other was probably around 40 yards away, and may have been on the backside of play where it is hard to see a bear hug. If it was as blatant and as close to the play as you described, the ref probably should have seen it. But when enough players get compacted in a relatively tight space, it can be hard to see everything.

Regarding the bear hug in the box, it was most likely not missed, but the ref deemed that there was not a good enough scoring chance for it to warrant a penalty.

Fouls that occur inside the box, in order for a referee to call them, need to result in an offensive player obviously losing the ability to create a scoring play. That isn't how the rule is written, but it's how it is enforced. And unless the bear hug kept an offensive player from attacking a ball that was well within reach, a ref will most likely choke on his whistle, unless it has been a consistent issue and the players have been warned. All foul decisions inside the box are magnified since they can swing a game so easily. The reason Robben got the penalty to win the game for the Dutch when he was moving away from the goal was a combo of him drawing contact while holding the ball right near the goal box, and because he was consistently getting hacked in the box.

(06-27-2014 12:44 AM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(06-26-2014 11:43 PM)jh Wrote:  If I remember correctly, no European team has ever won a World Cup played in the Americas.

This has a nice bracket, and a decent schedule.
http://www.thesoccerworldcups.com/world_...ayoffs.php

Correct, and that historic lack of success has held so far. 8 out of the 10 North / South American teams qualified for the knockout round. Just 6 out of the 13 European teams advanced to the knockout stage. Funny enough, 4 of the 5 South American teams are in one group of four teams, ensuring at least one South American squad in the semis.

I heard someone say that only once has a team won the world cup NOT from the hosting continent

(06-30-2014 05:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I heard someone say that only once has a team won the world cup NOT from the hosting continent

Well, only once out of the last one.

According to wikipedia it has happened 6 times.

(06-30-2014 05:37 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 05:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I heard someone say that only once has a team won the world cup NOT from the hosting continent

Well, only once out of the last one.

According to wikipedia it has happened 6 times.

Yep.

Brazil won in Sweden (1958), Mexico (1970), U.S. (1994) & Japan (2002); Argentina won in Mexico (1986) and Spain won the last World Cup (2010) in South Africa.

Ten of the first 12 World Cup winners were from the venue's contenent. But since 1984, it's alternated Yes-No, a pattern that bodes well for a South American winner this time.

(06-30-2014 06:29 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 05:37 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 05:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I heard someone say that only once has a team won the world cup NOT from the hosting continent

Well, only once out of the last one.

According to wikipedia it has happened 6 times.

Yep.

Brazil won in Sweden (1958), Mexico (1970), U.S. (1994) & Japan (2002); Argentina won in Mexico (1986) and Spain won the last World Cup (2010) in South Africa.

Ten of the first 12 World Cup winners were from the venue's contenent. But since 1984, it's alternated Yes-No, a pattern that bodes well for a South American winner this time.

It's more appropriate to say that Brazil is the only team to win outside its longitudinal hemisphere (Sweden '58, Japan '02).

As between South American and European hosts, the time zone, north/south hemisphere difference, and differences in crowd and weather make a very big difference. Whether it's true or not (and I tend to think there is some truth to it), the South Americans feel that Europe unfairly dominates the world game and FIFA, and that South America doesn't get its proper due. It's sort of a big-brother/little-brother dynamic, with some magical realism, superstition, and voodoo-Catholic mysticism thrown in for good measure. (Consider Uruguay's complaint that FIFA was unduly harsh on Suarez in part to punish Uruguay, or Miguel Herrera's defense of the Mexican crowd's use of "puto" as being something that Europeans don't understand.) The crowd and the us-versus-them atmosphere is not such a big issue in non-SA, non-Euro locations, particularly USA, Japan, and South Africa (Mexico obviously being the outlier here), and it makes sense that in that case the best pure team tends to rise to the top.

I

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  I

I Believe

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  I

I Believe

I Believe That

(07-01-2014 09:10 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  I

I Believe

I Believe That

I Believe That We Will Win

(06-30-2014 09:17 PM)jwn Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 06:29 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 05:37 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 05:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I heard someone say that only once has a team won the world cup NOT from the hosting continent

Well, only once out of the last one.

According to wikipedia it has happened 6 times.

Yep.

Brazil won in Sweden (1958), Mexico (1970), U.S. (1994) & Japan (2002); Argentina won in Mexico (1986) and Spain won the last World Cup (2010) in South Africa.

Ten of the first 12 World Cup winners were from the venue's contenent. But since 1984, it's alternated Yes-No, a pattern that bodes well for a South American winner this time.

It's more appropriate to say that Brazil is the only team to win outside its longitudinal hemisphere (Sweden '58, Japan '02).

As between South American and European hosts, the time zone, north/south hemisphere difference, and differences in crowd and weather make a very big difference. Whether it's true or not (and I tend to think there is some truth to it), the South Americans feel that Europe unfairly dominates the world game and FIFA, and that South America doesn't get its proper due. It's sort of a big-brother/little-brother dynamic, with some magical realism, superstition, and voodoo-Catholic mysticism thrown in for good measure. (Consider Uruguay's complaint that FIFA was unduly harsh on Suarez in part to punish Uruguay, or Miguel Herrera's defense of the Mexican crowd's use of "puto" as being something that Europeans don't understand.) The crowd and the us-versus-them atmosphere is not such a big issue in non-SA, non-Euro locations, particularly USA, Japan, and South Africa (Mexico obviously being the outlier here), and it makes sense that in that case the best pure team tends to rise to the top.

But I HEARD it... and nobody can say anything that isn't true, right?

Oh well. Glad I said 'I heard' since I didn't bother to fact check it.

(06-30-2014 12:27 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-30-2014 12:03 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  Soccer fans and aficionados, help me here: On a Nigerian corner kick late in today's first half, a French defender bear hugs his Nigerian mark with both arms tightly around his chest, preventing him from stepping back or jumping to reach the ball, which was coming down just over his head. .

Refs miss a lot.
They let entirely too much grabbing and pushing and shoving go for my taste, and my sense is that it's getting worse over time, not better.

Some fouls are missed (not seen), and some are tolerated (seen but not assessed). Those are two different things. The reality may be a combination of both, but my hunch is that at the elite level, there is lot more intentional toleration and less outright missing than most fans realize.

And before anyone crucifies the officials for tolerating fouls that they see, please remember that at this level, doing so is probably not the officials' decision. If they are tolerating fouls, it is most likely because they have been told (with varying degrees of explicitness) to do so.

This is exactly correct. US Soccer (I think it's at that level and not FIFA) explicitly instructs referees not to call trivial fouls, but rather to let play continue. IMHO, this is more of a problem at youth levels than at professional levels. In particular, when comparing say, South American play to US play, it becomes a problem. South Americans are conditioned that rough play is enforced by retaliation. US players are conditioned that retaliation is what is enforced by referees. Hence, in US versus South American play, the sequence is typically rough play, retaliation, enforcement by referees. I think that is one reason that Americans have trouble adjusting to play abroad, even in English style play. IMHO, too much is allowed in select leagues at the youth level here.

(07-01-2014 09:10 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:10 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 09:09 AM)13thOwl Wrote:  I

I Believe

I Believe That

I Believe That We Will Win

I Believe That We Will Win

I'm going to go dark on the internet for a while. But, the table should really be set here for a good run by the US. I think Felani and a few other key components are injured at this stage.

(07-01-2014 12:19 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I'm going to go dark on the internet for a while. But, the table should really be set here for a good run by the US. I think Felani and a few other key components are injured at this stage.

I am counting on Chuck Norris > Jon-Claude Van Damme...

(07-01-2014 01:08 PM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 12:19 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I'm going to go dark on the internet for a while. But, the table should really be set here for a good run by the US. I think Felani and a few other key components are injured at this stage.

I am counting on Chuck Norris > Jon-Claude Van Damme...

And Southern Star Black Crack or 8th Wonder Rocket Fuel > Stella Artois...

(07-01-2014 01:09 PM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 01:08 PM)13thOwl Wrote:  

(07-01-2014 12:19 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I'm going to go dark on the internet for a while. But, the table should really be set here for a good run by the US. I think Felani and a few other key components are injured at this stage.

I am counting on Chuck Norris > Jon-Claude Van Damme...

And Southern Star Black Crack or 8th Wonder Rocket Fuel > Stella Artois...

Hey ... I can understand if you pour Iron City under the bus, but watch out dissin' Stella. Next you'll be after Upslope Lager