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ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #61
Re: RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 12:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  It's my belief that revenue disparity within conferences is more of a problem than revenue disparity at the top of the conferences.

The vast majority of all games are in conference. The ability to compete in conference comes first. Once you clear that hurdle you tend to face other conferences on a one-shot basis and one shot deals in college sports show that anything can happen in one game. If you can't compete in your conference, you can't keep fans,, you lose donations and support.

All of this correlates to the size of the football stadium and paid attendance because 100,000 paying fans can pay for a lot of other items.

Lets' look at stadium size and the general results of the programs:

80K stadiums and higher:

Penn State
Michigan
Ohio State
Wisky
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Tennessee
Alabama
Auburn
Georiga
Florida
UCLA
USC
Notre Dame
Clemson
TAMU
South Carolina
Michigan State

Isn't it an amazing correlation between the big boys of football and the huge stadiums. These are stadiums filled by huge numbers of alumni and often the statiudm is located in a part fo the state where college football/basketball is the only game in town. Of those 20 only UCLA and USC share a town with major sports franchises, but they don't share them with the NFL.

Now, lets look at the 55K to 80K seat stadiums:

UVA
VT
UNC
NC State
FSU
GT
Ole Miss
MSU
Kentucky
Arkansas
Mizzou
Purdue
Indiana
Rutgers
Indiana
Illinois
Louisville
Iowa
Minnesotta
Ok State
Kansas
West Va
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Arizona
Colorado
Iowa State

Now lets look at the sub 55K

BC
MD
WF
Duke
Syracuse
Rutgers
Vandy
NW
Kansas State
Baylor
TCU
Washington State
Oregon State
Oregon
Utah

Playing in a pro stadium - Miami and Pitt

If we assume that each seat represent a 100 dollars in investment - ticket, donation, parking, etc. Then each 10000 seats filled represent a Million dollars revenue (again using rough numbers)

The top tier is making on average about $9,000,000 (range 8 mill to 11 mill) per home game. With 7 home games that $63 million. (100 per ticket)
The middle tier is making on average about $5.2 million per home game and at 7 games that's $36.4 million (80 per ticket)
The bottom tier is making on average $2.8 million per home game and at 7 games that's about 19.6 million (70 per ticket)

TV revenue while greatly important is and will remain between 15 and 25% of the overall revenue stream for the foreseeable future.

The ACC is just fine as it is and with it's current revenue. Until and unless you see a plan to add 20K or more seats in Blacksburg, Charlottesville, Louisville, Raleigh, Chapel Hill or Durham, you know that none of them are moving. Until and unless you see a plan to add 10K - 15K or so seats at Clemson or FSU you know they are not moving.

Each and every ACC team that wants has any ideation to move to the SEC or B10, must enlarge and fill their football stadium to at least 85K in order to compete. Every school has run these numbers.

XLance in particular can comment on the constraints that UNC found. I've seen another study (not NC State's) and they came to the same conclusion - the football stadium had to enlarge but how do you enlarge the stadium if you already have a dearth of hotel space and can't be sure when the game becomes so much trouble that folks stay at home and watch on high def so that the local po-po does not arrest you for public intoxication?

Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

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07-07-2014 01:12 PM
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Dasville Offline
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Post: #62
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 01:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 12:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  It's my belief that revenue disparity within conferences is more of a problem than revenue disparity at the top of the conferences.

The vast majority of all games are in conference. The ability to compete in conference comes first. Once you clear that hurdle you tend to face other conferences on a one-shot basis and one shot deals in college sports show that anything can happen in one game. If you can't compete in your conference, you can't keep fans,, you lose donations and support.

All of this correlates to the size of the football stadium and paid attendance because 100,000 paying fans can pay for a lot of other items.

Lets' look at stadium size and the general results of the programs:

80K stadiums and higher:

Penn State
Michigan
Ohio State
Wisky
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Tennessee
Alabama
Auburn
Georiga
Florida
UCLA
USC
Notre Dame
Clemson
TAMU
South Carolina
Michigan State

Isn't it an amazing correlation between the big boys of football and the huge stadiums. These are stadiums filled by huge numbers of alumni and often the statiudm is located in a part fo the state where college football/basketball is the only game in town. Of those 20 only UCLA and USC share a town with major sports franchises, but they don't share them with the NFL.

Now, lets look at the 55K to 80K seat stadiums:

UVA
VT
UNC
NC State
FSU
GT
Ole Miss
MSU
Kentucky
Arkansas
Mizzou
Purdue
Indiana
Rutgers
Indiana
Illinois
Louisville
Iowa
Minnesotta
Ok State
Kansas
West Va
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Arizona
Colorado
Iowa State

Now lets look at the sub 55K

BC
MD
WF
Duke
Syracuse
Rutgers
Vandy
NW
Kansas State
Baylor
TCU
Washington State
Oregon State
Oregon
Utah

Playing in a pro stadium - Miami and Pitt

If we assume that each seat represent a 100 dollars in investment - ticket, donation, parking, etc. Then each 10000 seats filled represent a Million dollars revenue (again using rough numbers)

The top tier is making on average about $9,000,000 (range 8 mill to 11 mill) per home game. With 7 home games that $63 million. (100 per ticket)
The middle tier is making on average about $5.2 million per home game and at 7 games that's $36.4 million (80 per ticket)
The bottom tier is making on average $2.8 million per home game and at 7 games that's about 19.6 million (70 per ticket)

TV revenue while greatly important is and will remain between 15 and 25% of the overall revenue stream for the foreseeable future.

The ACC is just fine as it is and with it's current revenue. Until and unless you see a plan to add 20K or more seats in Blacksburg, Charlottesville, Louisville, Raleigh, Chapel Hill or Durham, you know that none of them are moving. Until and unless you see a plan to add 10K - 15K or so seats at Clemson or FSU you know they are not moving.

Each and every ACC team that wants has any ideation to move to the SEC or B10, must enlarge and fill their football stadium to at least 85K in order to compete. Every school has run these numbers.

XLance in particular can comment on the constraints that UNC found. I've seen another study (not NC State's) and they came to the same conclusion - the football stadium had to enlarge but how do you enlarge the stadium if you already have a dearth of hotel space and can't be sure when the game becomes so much trouble that folks stay at home and watch on high def so that the local po-po does not arrest you for public intoxication?

Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2
If accurate, that expansion figure would take us to 75,000 chair back seats. 04-cheers
07-07-2014 02:01 PM
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Lou_C Offline
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Post: #63
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I suspect a large number of people are going to the games out of habit or tradition, and that habit is not being passed on in big numbers. Going to games has simply gotten so much more arduous and unpleasant thanks to television.

- Weeknight games
- noon games in early September in 100 degree heat
- non-ideal times
- 13 day options
- 6 day options
- interminable time outs to extend the game

The bottom line is that I'm in Atlanta 4+ hours away from FSU (which is extremely common for FSU). I can't possible decide what games I'm going to, since I have kids to take, until a week or two before the game. Is it going to be a night game, and require a hotel stay (too expensive/sometimes hard to find)? Is it going to be a noon game early (too hot for kids)? If you've got kids, they've also got commitments...if they have something at 9 am Saturday, could still make a night game or maybe 3:30, but you can't take that chance.

Getting season tickets it out of the question...while I probably would if I knew I could get to at least 3-4 games, there's just no way to know. So everything becomes a decision when TV finally decides when the game will be one or two weeks out. And when you're waiting that long to decide, a lot of other things end up sneaking up and taking preference.

There's just not that many people that can totally block out an entire weekend for every game, and now you've totally wiped out the ability for people to PLAN in advance accordingly to get to games.

Every time Jimbo Fisher or the ticket office stand up and implore fans to get out for The Citadel or Boston College in big numbers, I want to reply, "Sure, you got it. Just tell me what time, and I'll make arrangements. I'll know how many tickets to buy, and whether I'll need to stay over. So what time is the game?" But of course, they can't answer that, because TV.

So instead, I'll decide the weekend before if I will go. And that's a lot of time for cub scout trips, little league games, etc. to fill in that weekend.

If the conferences were smart, they'd take a few million dollars hit from TV and re-establish some more control over their product, but there's no way they would ever do that.
07-07-2014 02:01 PM
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ren.hoek Offline
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Post: #64
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
agree 1000%

(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I suspect a large number of people are going to the games out of habit or tradition, and that habit is not being passed on in big numbers. Going to games has simply gotten so much more arduous and unpleasant thanks to television.

- Weeknight games
- noon games in early September in 100 degree heat
- non-ideal times
- 13 day options
- 6 day options
- interminable time outs to extend the game

The bottom line is that I'm in Atlanta 4+ hours away from FSU (which is extremely common for FSU). I can't possible decide what games I'm going to, since I have kids to take, until a week or two before the game. Is it going to be a night game, and require a hotel stay (too expensive/sometimes hard to find)? Is it going to be a noon game early (too hot for kids)? If you've got kids, they've also got commitments...if they have something at 9 am Saturday, could still make a night game or maybe 3:30, but you can't take that chance.

Getting season tickets it out of the question...while I probably would if I knew I could get to at least 3-4 games, there's just no way to know. So everything becomes a decision when TV finally decides when the game will be one or two weeks out. And when you're waiting that long to decide, a lot of other things end up sneaking up and taking preference.

There's just not that many people that can totally block out an entire weekend for every game, and now you've totally wiped out the ability for people to PLAN in advance accordingly to get to games.

Every time Jimbo Fisher or the ticket office stand up and implore fans to get out for The Citadel or Boston College in big numbers, I want to reply, "Sure, you got it. Just tell me what time, and I'll make arrangements. I'll know how many tickets to buy, and whether I'll need to stay over. So what time is the game?" But of course, they can't answer that, because TV.

So instead, I'll decide the weekend before if I will go. And that's a lot of time for cub scout trips, little league games, etc. to fill in that weekend.

If the conferences were smart, they'd take a few million dollars hit from TV and re-establish some more control over their product, but there's no way they would ever do that.
07-07-2014 03:07 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #65
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I suspect a large number of people are going to the games out of habit or tradition, and that habit is not being passed on in big numbers. Going to games has simply gotten so much more arduous and unpleasant thanks to television.

- Weeknight games
- noon games in early September in 100 degree heat
- non-ideal times
- 13 day options
- 6 day options
- interminable time outs to extend the game

The bottom line is that I'm in Atlanta 4+ hours away from FSU (which is extremely common for FSU). I can't possible decide what games I'm going to, since I have kids to take, until a week or two before the game. Is it going to be a night game, and require a hotel stay (too expensive/sometimes hard to find)? Is it going to be a noon game early (too hot for kids)? If you've got kids, they've also got commitments...if they have something at 9 am Saturday, could still make a night game or maybe 3:30, but you can't take that chance.

Getting season tickets it out of the question...while I probably would if I knew I could get to at least 3-4 games, there's just no way to know. So everything becomes a decision when TV finally decides when the game will be one or two weeks out. And when you're waiting that long to decide, a lot of other things end up sneaking up and taking preference.

There's just not that many people that can totally block out an entire weekend for every game, and now you've totally wiped out the ability for people to PLAN in advance accordingly to get to games.

Every time Jimbo Fisher or the ticket office stand up and implore fans to get out for The Citadel or Boston College in big numbers, I want to reply, "Sure, you got it. Just tell me what time, and I'll make arrangements. I'll know how many tickets to buy, and whether I'll need to stay over. So what time is the game?" But of course, they can't answer that, because TV.

So instead, I'll decide the weekend before if I will go. And that's a lot of time for cub scout trips, little league games, etc. to fill in that weekend.

If the conferences were smart, they'd take a few million dollars hit from TV and re-establish some more control over their product, but there's no way they would ever do that.



It was a lot easier when I was a kid because you knew that if you were going to Clemson that Saturday the game was kicking off at 1:00 PM.

It was really easy when I was in college because a group of us would go to Clemson either Friday after class or Saturday morning, tailgate with friends, go to the game, then immediately afterwards get on Hwy 76 and beat feet to Newberry for our game that night.

This past season I missed my first home game in 20 years when we played GT on Thursday night because both of my sons had football games of their own that night.
07-07-2014 03:20 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #66
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
It is difficult to compare Louisville to many of the programs in The ACC. Consider Pitt, Georgia Tech or Boston College with the top revenue producing basketball program in a city without professional sports competition. Then you will get some idea of our situation here in Louisville.

UofL athletics are for all practical purposes supported like a professional team. We have 62 luxury suites in Papa Johns for football and another 71 in The Yum Center for basketball. They are all sold out. (This season first time for football) Couple these with waiting lists of thousands to buy tickets for both sports.

Louisville is the largest city in the country without professional sports, and we plan to keep it that way. Money will never be an object here. With what many here apparently consider a chicken feed payment from The ACC Louisville will be pushing the Top 10 in revenues.
CJ
07-07-2014 04:13 PM
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HtownOrange Offline
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Post: #67
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I suspect a large number of people are going to the games out of habit or tradition, and that habit is not being passed on in big numbers. Going to games has simply gotten so much more arduous and unpleasant thanks to television.

- Weeknight games
- noon games in early September in 100 degree heat
- non-ideal times
- 13 day options
- 6 day options
- interminable time outs to extend the game

The bottom line is that I'm in Atlanta 4+ hours away from FSU (which is extremely common for FSU). I can't possible decide what games I'm going to, since I have kids to take, until a week or two before the game. Is it going to be a night game, and require a hotel stay (too expensive/sometimes hard to find)? Is it going to be a noon game early (too hot for kids)? If you've got kids, they've also got commitments...if they have something at 9 am Saturday, could still make a night game or maybe 3:30, but you can't take that chance.

Getting season tickets it out of the question...while I probably would if I knew I could get to at least 3-4 games, there's just no way to know. So everything becomes a decision when TV finally decides when the game will be one or two weeks out. And when you're waiting that long to decide, a lot of other things end up sneaking up and taking preference.

There's just not that many people that can totally block out an entire weekend for every game, and now you've totally wiped out the ability for people to PLAN in advance accordingly to get to games.

Every time Jimbo Fisher or the ticket office stand up and implore fans to get out for The Citadel or Boston College in big numbers, I want to reply, "Sure, you got it. Just tell me what time, and I'll make arrangements. I'll know how many tickets to buy, and whether I'll need to stay over. So what time is the game?" But of course, they can't answer that, because TV.

So instead, I'll decide the weekend before if I will go. And that's a lot of time for cub scout trips, little league games, etc. to fill in that weekend.

If the conferences were smart, they'd take a few million dollars hit from TV and re-establish some more control over their product, but there's no way they would ever do that.

You probably hit the nail on the head. 20 years ago, most games could not find their way to TV. People went to games because they wanted to follow their team. Now, you watch it live or record it if you have your kid's birthday party to take care of.

I think you are correct about TV revenue, they have barely scratched the surface. In the long run, the conferences will be making much more money than now, which is much more than even 10 years ago.

The live experience may go more towards the NBA model where it is largely corporate and experience with smaller stadiums (like NBA arenas) that are filled regularly and not designed for the largest possible crowds.
07-07-2014 05:10 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #68
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
In the SEC the game day experience will remain an event as it is so ingrained in the culture. As it will in Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Michigan. 20 years from now programs in these areas will still be packing the fans in.
CJ
07-07-2014 05:48 PM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Dasville Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 01:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 12:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  It's my belief that revenue disparity within conferences is more of a problem than revenue disparity at the top of the conferences.

The vast majority of all games are in conference. The ability to compete in conference comes first. Once you clear that hurdle you tend to face other conferences on a one-shot basis and one shot deals in college sports show that anything can happen in one game. If you can't compete in your conference, you can't keep fans,, you lose donations and support.

All of this correlates to the size of the football stadium and paid attendance because 100,000 paying fans can pay for a lot of other items.

Lets' look at stadium size and the general results of the programs:

80K stadiums and higher:

Penn State
Michigan
Ohio State
Wisky
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Tennessee
Alabama
Auburn
Georiga
Florida
UCLA
USC
Notre Dame
Clemson
TAMU
South Carolina
Michigan State

Isn't it an amazing correlation between the big boys of football and the huge stadiums. These are stadiums filled by huge numbers of alumni and often the statiudm is located in a part fo the state where college football/basketball is the only game in town. Of those 20 only UCLA and USC share a town with major sports franchises, but they don't share them with the NFL.

Now, lets look at the 55K to 80K seat stadiums:

UVA
VT
UNC
NC State
FSU
GT
Ole Miss
MSU
Kentucky
Arkansas
Mizzou
Purdue
Indiana
Rutgers
Indiana
Illinois
Louisville
Iowa
Minnesotta
Ok State
Kansas
West Va
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Arizona
Colorado
Iowa State

Now lets look at the sub 55K

BC
MD
WF
Duke
Syracuse
Rutgers
Vandy
NW
Kansas State
Baylor
TCU
Washington State
Oregon State
Oregon
Utah

Playing in a pro stadium - Miami and Pitt

If we assume that each seat represent a 100 dollars in investment - ticket, donation, parking, etc. Then each 10000 seats filled represent a Million dollars revenue (again using rough numbers)

The top tier is making on average about $9,000,000 (range 8 mill to 11 mill) per home game. With 7 home games that $63 million. (100 per ticket)
The middle tier is making on average about $5.2 million per home game and at 7 games that's $36.4 million (80 per ticket)
The bottom tier is making on average $2.8 million per home game and at 7 games that's about 19.6 million (70 per ticket)

TV revenue while greatly important is and will remain between 15 and 25% of the overall revenue stream for the foreseeable future.

The ACC is just fine as it is and with it's current revenue. Until and unless you see a plan to add 20K or more seats in Blacksburg, Charlottesville, Louisville, Raleigh, Chapel Hill or Durham, you know that none of them are moving. Until and unless you see a plan to add 10K - 15K or so seats at Clemson or FSU you know they are not moving.

Each and every ACC team that wants has any ideation to move to the SEC or B10, must enlarge and fill their football stadium to at least 85K in order to compete. Every school has run these numbers.

XLance in particular can comment on the constraints that UNC found. I've seen another study (not NC State's) and they came to the same conclusion - the football stadium had to enlarge but how do you enlarge the stadium if you already have a dearth of hotel space and can't be sure when the game becomes so much trouble that folks stay at home and watch on high def so that the local po-po does not arrest you for public intoxication?

Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2
If accurate, that expansion figure would take us to 75,000 chair back seats. 04-cheers

Having a plan and doing it are two separate things. Now, if anyone can expand now in the ACC it probably is Louisville - no professional competition and the only game in town for a good sized metro. A big advantage for UL.

There is a saturation point of course. Take NC for example. There are 140K football seats to sell just in the Triangle - Durham, Chapel Hill, Raleigh. Then there are another 50 down the road in Greenville, and another 35 up the road in Winston. That's 225K FBS seats to sell in a state with just 10 million people and that's before App and Charlotte move up this year. That will add another 40K for a total of 265K. That's one seat for every 37 NC residents.

UNC and UVa do not have the demand to expand. VT probably has demand for an extra 5K - if the program stays up. NC State needs 8-10K more seats right now to accommodate demand for early season games and games with UNC, FSU, Wake, Duke, Miami, VT, Clemson, ECU, but those extra seats won't fill against really bad opponents or against BC, Syracuse because their travel is just not that heavy and Yow would rather die than be part of another football stadium expansion that may or may not pan out.
07-07-2014 06:00 PM
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Lou_C Offline
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RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 05:48 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  In the SEC the game day experience will remain an event as it is so ingrained in the culture. As it will in Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and Michigan. 20 years from now programs in these areas will still be packing the fans in.
CJ

They'll still be packing them in relative to the other conferences, but I guarantee they won't be packing them in compared to how they packed them in for recent years. These things affect them too, and it's easy to find attendance down in the SEC.

The live game experience is more arduous and demanding than it used to be, and less necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I love live gameday, and would never simply choose TV over live all things being equal. But they aren't equal.

Everyone talks about the one side, that HD and big TVs are making watching on television more appealing. But they don't talk about the other side...the stealth genius that the networks have also made the live game experience LESS appealing.

Some of you are probably too young to remember the days before TV timeouts. But games are considerably less enjoyable with TV timeouts, especially the now 3-4 terrible games most schools have on their home schedule every year. It's flat ridiculous that you have to sit through TV timeout after timeout during a game against McNeese State because it's on ESPN Ocho. When my kids were little, those were prime games because they were easy and fairly fast moving. I was one of the few people TARGETING those games every year.

Today? Almost as long a day to go to the dog games as it is the good games.

TV has made the live experience more difficult to plan for, more expensive (better plan on staying overnight either way and get that hotel room), less aesthetically enjoyable (timeout-kickoff-timeout anyone?), less comfortable (12 pm kick in Tallahasse on Sept1, sounds great), etc.

Don't think for a minute that the networks don't consider live attendance the competition, and they've treated it that way. If TV had their way, and they do every time thanks to commissioners and schools that can't see past the dollar signs, the college football would be played in front of 40k crowds.

The future is smaller crowds, not bigger crowds. That's for everyone.
07-07-2014 06:28 PM
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Lou_C Offline
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Post: #71
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 06:00 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Dasville Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 01:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 12:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  It's my belief that revenue disparity within conferences is more of a problem than revenue disparity at the top of the conferences.

The vast majority of all games are in conference. The ability to compete in conference comes first. Once you clear that hurdle you tend to face other conferences on a one-shot basis and one shot deals in college sports show that anything can happen in one game. If you can't compete in your conference, you can't keep fans,, you lose donations and support.

All of this correlates to the size of the football stadium and paid attendance because 100,000 paying fans can pay for a lot of other items.

Lets' look at stadium size and the general results of the programs:

80K stadiums and higher:

Penn State
Michigan
Ohio State
Wisky
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Texas
LSU
Tennessee
Alabama
Auburn
Georiga
Florida
UCLA
USC
Notre Dame
Clemson
TAMU
South Carolina
Michigan State

Isn't it an amazing correlation between the big boys of football and the huge stadiums. These are stadiums filled by huge numbers of alumni and often the statiudm is located in a part fo the state where college football/basketball is the only game in town. Of those 20 only UCLA and USC share a town with major sports franchises, but they don't share them with the NFL.

Now, lets look at the 55K to 80K seat stadiums:

UVA
VT
UNC
NC State
FSU
GT
Ole Miss
MSU
Kentucky
Arkansas
Mizzou
Purdue
Indiana
Rutgers
Indiana
Illinois
Louisville
Iowa
Minnesotta
Ok State
Kansas
West Va
Arizona State
Cal
Stanford
Arizona
Colorado
Iowa State

Now lets look at the sub 55K

BC
MD
WF
Duke
Syracuse
Rutgers
Vandy
NW
Kansas State
Baylor
TCU
Washington State
Oregon State
Oregon
Utah

Playing in a pro stadium - Miami and Pitt

If we assume that each seat represent a 100 dollars in investment - ticket, donation, parking, etc. Then each 10000 seats filled represent a Million dollars revenue (again using rough numbers)

The top tier is making on average about $9,000,000 (range 8 mill to 11 mill) per home game. With 7 home games that $63 million. (100 per ticket)
The middle tier is making on average about $5.2 million per home game and at 7 games that's $36.4 million (80 per ticket)
The bottom tier is making on average $2.8 million per home game and at 7 games that's about 19.6 million (70 per ticket)

TV revenue while greatly important is and will remain between 15 and 25% of the overall revenue stream for the foreseeable future.

The ACC is just fine as it is and with it's current revenue. Until and unless you see a plan to add 20K or more seats in Blacksburg, Charlottesville, Louisville, Raleigh, Chapel Hill or Durham, you know that none of them are moving. Until and unless you see a plan to add 10K - 15K or so seats at Clemson or FSU you know they are not moving.

Each and every ACC team that wants has any ideation to move to the SEC or B10, must enlarge and fill their football stadium to at least 85K in order to compete. Every school has run these numbers.

XLance in particular can comment on the constraints that UNC found. I've seen another study (not NC State's) and they came to the same conclusion - the football stadium had to enlarge but how do you enlarge the stadium if you already have a dearth of hotel space and can't be sure when the game becomes so much trouble that folks stay at home and watch on high def so that the local po-po does not arrest you for public intoxication?

Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

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If accurate, that expansion figure would take us to 75,000 chair back seats. 04-cheers

Having a plan and doing it are two separate things. Now, if anyone can expand now in the ACC it probably is Louisville - no professional competition and the only game in town for a good sized metro. A big advantage for UL.

There is a saturation point of course. Take NC for example. There are 140K football seats to sell just in the Triangle - Durham, Chapel Hill, Raleigh. Then there are another 50 down the road in Greenville, and another 35 up the road in Winston. That's 225K FBS seats to sell in a state with just 10 million people and that's before App and Charlotte move up this year. That will add another 40K for a total of 265K. That's one seat for every 37 NC residents.

UNC and UVa do not have the demand to expand. VT probably has demand for an extra 5K - if the program stays up. NC State needs 8-10K more seats right now to accommodate demand for early season games and games with UNC, FSU, Wake, Duke, Miami, VT, Clemson, ECU, but those extra seats won't fill against really bad opponents or against BC, Syracuse because their travel is just not that heavy and Yow would rather die than be part of another football stadium expansion that may or may not pan out.

Smarter to keep the stadium size the same and reap the demand through higher prices and donations.
07-07-2014 06:29 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #72
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 01:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

Says who?


==================

Also, FSU's capacity is over 80,000 and has been for some time.
07-07-2014 07:30 PM
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TopperCard Offline
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Post: #73
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 07:30 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 01:12 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Louisville is expanding their football stadium, again, by about 20k, but I wouldnt look for them to make a move out of the ACC any time soon.

Says who?


==================

Also, FSU's capacity is over 80,000 and has been for some time.

A feasibility study was commissioned in December regarding stadium expansion, and a survey went out to season ticket holders about 4 months ago (I took it) regarding expansion and the addition of more premium seating. According to local media people, Jurich has 3 expansion designs currently on the table that haven't been released to the public. The rumor is enclosing the north end zone by incorporating the Schnellenberger Complex, as well as adding adding regular and field level suites.

I wouldn't go so far as adding 20K seats, but I would guess the expansion will add somewhere around 8 - 12K, which would put the capacity at 63 - 67K. It's also believed it'll be done by 2017.
07-07-2014 07:51 PM
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ULdave Offline
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Post: #74
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 06:29 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  Smarter to keep the stadium size the same and reap the demand through higher prices and donations.
An interesting thing about Louisville's previous expansion is that the majority of the added seating was "revenue neutral" in other words cheap. I buy 8 season tickets every year, this year each was only $135. The money making seats are the added luxury boxes. This does two things younger families can afford to bring their kids and build for the next generation and the wealthier people have the premium option of the luxury boxes that might encourage them to watch outside of their "man caves" at home.

The problem with exclusivity is that you could be damaging the fan base of the future. When kids grow with the tradition of going to games it is more likely they will continue as adults.
07-08-2014 06:08 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #75
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-08-2014 06:08 AM)ULdave Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 06:29 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  Smarter to keep the stadium size the same and reap the demand through higher prices and donations.
An interesting thing about Louisville's previous expansion is that the majority of the added seating was "revenue neutral" in other words cheap. I buy 8 season tickets every year, this year each was only $135. The money making seats are the added luxury boxes. This does two things younger families can afford to bring their kids and build for the next generation and the wealthier people have the premium option of the luxury boxes that might encourage them to watch outside of their "man caves" at home.

The problem with exclusivity is that you could be damaging the fan base of the future. When kids grow with the tradition of going to games it is more likely they will continue as adults.

I agree 100%. Too much is made of sell-outs and ticket revenue IMO. Teams should focus more on building the fan base. I'd even support dropping from 7 home games to 6 in order to get that 2nd or 3rd quality home & home (which is going to help sell-out the stadium, btw).
07-08-2014 07:19 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #76
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I wouldn't say that. But I think what you will see is, over time, stadiums develop into more movie theatre style seating in terms of amenities even for the rank and file seats.

But while you may see people stop buying "bad" seats in humongous stadiums, Rooting interest forces the live experience. Same reason people go to NASCAR races and can barely see, or spend gobs of money to go to major horseraces or other events, or go to golf events, where you only see one part of one hole. The home experience can only do so much. People still want to be there.

However, they do have new wants while they are there.
07-08-2014 07:52 AM
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Lou_C Offline
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Post: #77
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-08-2014 07:52 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 02:01 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  I think anyone expanding their stadium right now is crazy. I think in 20 years, hardly anyone will be drawing 70k+.

College football sold out the game experience for TV money, and once they see what they've lost, they'll realize that despite the massive rights deals, schools that have traditionally drawn well will realize they sold out cheap.

I wouldn't say that. But I think what you will see is, over time, stadiums develop into more movie theatre style seating in terms of amenities even for the rank and file seats.

But while you may see people stop buying "bad" seats in humongous stadiums, Rooting interest forces the live experience. Same reason people go to NASCAR races and can barely see, or spend gobs of money to go to major horseraces or other events, or go to golf events, where you only see one part of one hole. The home experience can only do so much. People still want to be there.

However, they do have new wants while they are there.

Oh, I agree with all that, that being there is not the same as being at home. The problem is that there are more people every year, especially kids/young people, that won't even realize the difference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stadiums will be empty...but I don't see 90-100k people in any stadium 20 years from now.
07-08-2014 08:53 AM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #78
Re: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
They are already working on new technologies to improve the live experience, & of course how to profit off of it. Expanding wifi, for example, in the stadiums. Imagine getting replays sent to your phone or whatever device you have. Watching other live games also as you watch your game. The extra profit will come from the extra advertising included with the wifi. The stadium experience will be revolutionalized.

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07-08-2014 10:14 AM
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Post: #79
RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-08-2014 10:14 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  They are already working on new technologies to improve the live experience, & of course how to profit off of it. Expanding wifi, for example, in the stadiums. Imagine getting replays sent to your phone or whatever device you have. Watching other live games also as you watch your game. The extra profit will come from the extra advertising included with the wifi. The stadium experience will be revolutionalized.

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Heightened security and rules that make it difficult to students to sit with who they want, etc., etc., are also having an effect on student turn out - combine that with an off-campus facility and the problem gets worse, when you can sit in the apartment or dorm room and watch in high def.

When I was younger if I wanted to watch a game at Duke, you just caught a ride to the woods at the open end of the horseshoe and went under or over the fence. No one cared unless you wore NC State red or UNC blue.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 01:00 PM by lumberpack4.)
07-08-2014 12:58 PM
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RE: ACC revenue question (conference networks, etc)
(07-07-2014 04:13 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Louisville is the largest city in the country without professional sports

Yes and no.

Louisville’s “city population” is 756,832. That absolutely dwarfs the "city population" of Cincinnati (296,943), Pittsburgh (305,841), St. Louis (318,416), Cleveland (396,815), Minneapolis (400,070), and Miami (419,777). The problem with using city population is that some cities are consolidated city-county while other have separate city and county governments.

If you go by metro population (avoids the issue of city-only vs city/county consolidated), Louisville is only one of several +1 million metro population cities without a Big 4 team (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL).

Las Vegas, NV...............1,951,269
Austin, TX....................1,926,998
Hampton Roads, VA........1,707,369
Louisville, KY.................1,262,261
Richmond, VA................1,231,980
Hartford,CT...................1,212,381

Still I agree with your overall point. Louisville has more of a unique situation given that the school is located in a large metro area with no pro competition.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 01:27 PM by UofLgrad07.)
07-08-2014 01:15 PM
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