The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(06-24-2014 12:52 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:50 PM)EA3 Wrote:  Disagree completely about the talent on the field comment Hoek. Coaching means everything at this level. Talent can be outworked and put into bad positions by smart coaches on the opposite sidelines.

Of course, but as I said earlier they seem to be putting in the work too.

I would argue that talent is even more important at this level, but that's just me.

Fleck is doing A LOT of things right. Recruiting, facilities, energy, relationships, and sticking with his message. He's yet to prove he can put WMU in a position to win on the field.

I'm not going to dog the man because of one season. Plenty of variables contributed to that mess, some were under his control, others were not.

At this point, I'd rather have someone accumulating talent at WMU than the opposite. Hopefully it translates into wins down the road, even if Fleck moves on. These incoming freshman could be here for 4-5 years...which is likely longer than PJ. If Fleck can't coach them up, then the next guy better be able to. The cupboard won't be empty barring a mass exodus.

(06-24-2014 10:14 AM)flushtheherd Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 10:10 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

I think everyone doesn't want to get all excited again to get the rug ripped from under us. It's the life of a bronco... get over-hyped in the off-season and ultimately let down during the season.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. Exactly what I have been saying for years.

(06-24-2014 12:59 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:58 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Please, tell us how he's off by a mile.......or should we wait for someone else to try and answer the question for you and then you can go "BAM" or "^this."

Seriously, it's exhausting arguing with a bunch of followers.

There are two for sure, probably two more HC's on this board that I will wait for them to weigh in on this statement and the subsequent "moral support".

Seriously, coaching is HUGE, why do you think they make so much at the top levels? You think it's just to "attract good players?!"

(06-24-2014 12:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Coach Hawkins has been quoted many times saying the exact same thing. But you're probably right, what does he know?

It has always been the case that I believe this is an important factor. I have argued often that if you look at the high school level. The school I went to, I was blessed to be in the middle of a 5 year window where we dominated our conference and went to the state playoffs (back when it was harder to do, because only 4 from each region went). But prior to that 5 years and after that 5 years, we had the same coaches, but the talent just wasn't there and they didn't have the same success. If you look at Loy Norrix. They have sucked for years with the exception of the 2 or 3 season that TJ Duckett and Little John Flowers played there. So I will give you that the talent is at least as important as the coaching.

That said, I have also seen examples where a coach is able to put a scheme together or motivate a team that is much less talented to be successful against more talented teams as well.

I seriously think it is a combination of the 2. So if we bring that all the way back to WMUs current situation. SHOULD they be a better team if they have better talent on the field? Obviously. But WILL they be a better team? WILL the coaching staff be able to develop these guys into better players and put them in the right situation to succeed? That is the question.

Last year, there was an obvious lack of talent for various reasons. But what I saw that disappointed me most of all was that games would often be close at halftime and apparently no adjustments were made to give the team any kind of advantage and they regularly got crushed in the 2nd half. That has everything to do with coaching in my opinion.

Is there anyone on this forum that has attended a practice and seen Fleck coach first-hand? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on his coaching methods and whether or not they are effective with the team.

There, I just served it up on a silver platter for someone... right?

(06-24-2014 01:18 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Is there anyone on this forum that has attended a practice and seen Fleck coach first-hand? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on his coaching methods and whether or not they are effective with the team.

There, I just served it up on a silver platter for someone... right?

Can't make that argument. What seems great from Jan-August doesn't always translate on the field. We play games to win. Hopefully what is happening right now in the program will translate to wins. That said, I recognize the fact that PJ is extremely intense and emotional. He brings a purpose to everything he does. Goes balls to the wall, critics be darned, in everything he does. I admire that about him and it also gives me hope for WMU's record these next couple of years. It just needs to translate on the field.

Kimbo has written often with his observations from attending practice. Why do you ask that now? Sounds like a "Peej like" deflection attempt here.

(06-24-2014 01:04 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:59 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:58 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Please, tell us how he's off by a mile.......or should we wait for someone else to try and answer the question for you and then you can go "BAM" or "^this."

Seriously, it's exhausting arguing with a bunch of followers.

There are two for sure, probably two more HC's on this board that I will wait for them to weigh in on this statement and the subsequent "moral support".

Seriously, coaching is HUGE, why do you think they make so much at the top levels? You think it's just to "attract good players?!"

Howard Schellenburg sp made the U into the most powerful team in college football by convincing Miami kids to stay home. He never approached that kind of wins and loss success at subsequent stops. The U was built on talent.

Mooch looked like a genius with the 49ers, looked like a dope with Lions.

Butch Jones came to a UT program that was floundering. He hasn't done well, but he's had a very good year recruiting. We'll see if that translates to wins, but Butch always did well when inherited quality talent from BK.

"The U was built on talent". He also could coach a little, don't you think? He proved that. So did the U. They went and got one of the BEST COACHES they could get shortly after in Jimmy.

The Lions have wore out all kinds of coaching, new, established, you name it, they're an outlier and shouldn't be used for anything example wise.

Butch Jones? He had talent, he followed a guy, Brian Kelly, who turned CMU around immediately, then went on to make Cinci a top five team in a short time, with pretty much returning talent from the previous regime.

His CMU alone example is a good one to use as a benchmark for your boy Peej.

(06-24-2014 01:18 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Is there anyone on this forum that has attended a practice and seen Fleck coach first-hand? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on his coaching methods and whether or not they are effective with the team.

There, I just served it up on a silver platter for someone... right?

Probably not. We aren't all Super Secret Insiders like you.

And my sources that have actually been at practice are all deaf, crossed eyed mutes. So they probably got it all wrong anyways.

(06-24-2014 01:18 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Is there anyone on this forum that has attended a practice and seen Fleck coach first-hand? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on his coaching methods and whether or not they are effective with the team.

There, I just served it up on a silver platter for someone... right?

Probably not. We aren't all Super Secret Insiders like you.

And my sources that have actually been at practice are all deaf, crossed eyed mutes. So they would probably get it all wrong anyways.

(06-24-2014 01:33 PM)WheresWaldo42 Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 01:18 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Is there anyone on this forum that has attended a practice and seen Fleck coach first-hand? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on his coaching methods and whether or not they are effective with the team.

There, I just served it up on a silver platter for someone... right?

Probably not. We aren't all Super Secret Insiders like you.

And my sources that have actually been at practice are all deaf, crossed eyed mutes. So they would probably get it all wrong anyways.

I've attended chit loads of practices in the last 5 years. I rarely saw anyone there other than a few media types. Fleck had very few open practices.

I'm not claiming to be a "Super Secret Insider" or anything of the sort.

Many have questioned my "blind support" so I'm simply opening it to the peanut galley for additional insight. Still waiting...

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

without reading the rest of this thread, I can tell you that myself and Major have coached many games in which we beat the other team, then could have went to the other sideline and easily beat our own team with their players. Coaches talk about great coaches being guys that can beat yours with his and beat his with yours.

This may be the great divide I have with you on Fleck and company.

I wouldn't expect a coach to say anything different.

But with no disrespect Kimbo, you and I both know there are H.S. coaches out there that shouldn't be coaching football. I went to a high school with 2,000 students and our high school football coach was the middle school gym teacher. He didn't know a lick about football.

College football is very different. These guys know what they're doing. They are there for a reason. Coaching is obviously important, but players do win games.

(06-24-2014 01:55 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

without reading the rest of this thread, I can tell you that myself and Major have coached many games in which we beat the other team, then could have went to the other sideline and easily beat our own team with their players. Coaches talk about great coaches being guys that can beat yours with his and beat his with yours.

This may be the great divide I have with you on Fleck and company.

I have to add this... Does anyone think that Nichols State had better talent than WMU last year?

(06-24-2014 02:02 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  I wouldn't expect a coach to say anything different.

But with no disrespect Kimbo, you and I both know there are H.S. coaches out there that shouldn't be coaching football. I went to a high school with 2,000 students and our high school football coach was the middle school gym teacher. He didn't know a lick about football.

College football is very different. These guys know what they're doing. They are there for a reason. Coaching is obviously important, but players do win games.

I'll beat everyone to the punch here.

There's college coaches out there that shouldn't be coaching either, just look at ours!!

(06-24-2014 12:43 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  Tell me CF, would you rather have a first year coach who takes over an injury riddled program, goes 1-11, and is killing it on the recruiting front.......

Or would you rather have a first year guy who inherits good talent, is coming off a successful season, has a so so recruiting class, and goes 3-9?

Would you rather have someone who generates excitement from recruits, and who is out in the community, or would rather have less than exciting leader who lives 30 miles away?

Would you rather have someone who has upside and potential, or someone who has a proven track record of losing?

Right now Fleck's future is pure speculation, he's shown a real knack for getting talent. I 'd say the jury is still out as to whether he can coach as he had little to work with. In a head to head with Enos it appeared that neither are X's and O's geniuses. Enos has a 4 year resume that has shown little or no growth. Fleck has done some things that show some upside.

In other words I wouldn't start your pity party for us quite yet.

Dip, can you get over your CMU / Enos obsession long enough to ponder the questions? I did not post to try to compare Enos vs. Fleck. I was asking about what expectations the WMU fans have for the future. I see some potential issues and was interested in knowing if the WMU crowd sees things the same way. Geez!!

But since you asked the question...I would prefer the coach who doesn't make me cringe from embarrassment with his off-field shenanigans...but that's just me. Each to his own.

(06-24-2014 02:04 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 02:02 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  I wouldn't expect a coach to say anything different.

But with no disrespect Kimbo, you and I both know there are H.S. coaches out there that shouldn't be coaching football. I went to a high school with 2,000 students and our high school football coach was the middle school gym teacher. He didn't know a lick about football.

College football is very different. These guys know what they're doing. They are there for a reason. Coaching is obviously important, but players do win games.

I'll beat everyone to the punch here.

There's college coaches out there that shouldn't be coaching either, just look at ours!!

I knew this was coming, but I didn't expect it from you!

Players win games when coaches put them in the position to win games. If what you say is true then we would never have an upset in college football. I have been studying COLLEGE football since I was 5 so that puts it at 35 years. Players make plays but they can't do it by themselves. Everyone talks about all the talent Alabama has and forgets that Saban has won at every step of the way including Toledo. Talent will flock to coaches that win. Right now we can sell playing time and a super fun young coach. How many players is he going to attract if he 10-26 in a few years?