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B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
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ken d Offline
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Post: #41
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-22-2014 10:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Undergraduates and media focus on US News rankings but they are easily skewed and gamed by the university. In essence they measure only the reputation of the undergraduate education, and don't measure the overall university by omitting the graduate and research componenent which is what B10 universities are about. For example:

"ARWU considers every university that has any Nobel Laureates, Fields Medalists, Highly Cited Researchers, or papers published in Nature or Science. In addition, universities with significant amount of papers indexed by Science Citation Index-Expanded (SCIE) and Social Science Citation Index (SSCI) are also included. In total, more than 1000 universities are actually ranked and the best 500 are published on the web.

Ranking Criteria and Weights

Universities are ranked by several indicators of academic or research performance, including alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, highly cited researchers, papers published in Nature and Science, papers indexed in major citation indices, and the per capita academic performance of an institution. For each indicator, the highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. The distribution of data for each indicator is examined for any significant distorting effect; standard statistical techniques are used to adjust the indicator if necessary. Scores for each indicator are weighted as shown below to arrive at a final overall score for an institution. The highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. An institution's rank reflects the number of institutions that sit above it.
Indicators and Weights for ARWU

Criteria

Indicator

Code

Weight

Quality of Education Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Alumni 10%
Quality of Faculty Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Award 20%
Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories HiCi 20%
Research Output Papers published in Nature and Science* N&S 20%
Papers indexed in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index PUB 20%
Per Capita Performance Per capita academic performance of an institution PCP 10%
Total 100%
* For institutions specialized in humanities and social sciences such as London School of Economics, N&S is not considered, and the weight of N&S is relocated to other indicators. "



For 2013 the Big 10 ranked as follows:

17. Wisky
18. Michigan
19. Illinois
21. Minnesotta
22. Northwestern
24. Maryland
37. Penn State
38. Purdue
39. Rutgers
41. Ohio State
50. Indiana
50. Michigan State
53-67. Iowa
86-108. Nebraska

By comparison the ACC:

23. Duke
30. UNC
39. Pitt
53-67. GT
53-67. UVa
68-85. NC State
68-85. Florida State
68-85. Miami
68-85. Virginia Tech
86-108. Notre Dame*
109 - 131 Clemson
109 - 131 Syracuse
109 - 131 Wake Forest*
132-149 Boston College*
Above 150 - Louisville
* Undergraduate focused universities.

Here's the SEC:

35. Vandy
43. UF
53-47. UGa
53-47. Texas A&M
68-85. Tennessee
86-108. LSU
86-108. Kentucky
86-108. Mizzou
109-131. South Carolina
132-149. Auburn
132-149. Arkansas
Above 150 - Ole Miss
Above 150 - MSU

ARWU rankings are one metric for how graduate research universities measure each other. B10's are all graduate research intensive, while the ACC mixes in several undergraduate focused universities. ACC universities are also smaller - on average 40% smaller than their B10 counterparts. The size of the average ACC graduate research component will also be smaller than that found in the B10.

For those enamoured with the AAU, consider that they have capped their membership at 63 with 2 from Canada. While you can't really take the ARWU rankings and make a match, since they are output measures, they help understand the difficulty of getting into the 63.

The last two voted in were GT and Boston University. When GT was voted upon NC State and Cincy were also being voted upon. You need 75% of the schools voting yes to gain admission. NC State is in the 68-85 range. Cincy is 86-108. The last two tossed out of the AAU are Nebraska 86-108, and Syracuse, 109-131.

From a practical standpoint, if your ARWU ranking is 68-85 you are on the cusp of being dumped from the ARWU, and you are at the cusp of getting an AAU vote. Kansas, Mizzou, SUNY-Buffalo, and Brandies are all above that range at 86-108.

As far as those who play B-5 football, those not in the AAU but at 85 and ranked better (meaning might one day make the AAU) include Miami, FSU, NC State, VT, Georgia, Tennessee.

Mizzou and Kansas who are in the AAU, could easily find their future to be like Nebraska and Syracuse - dumped out from AAU.

No one should be under any illusion they can "work hard" to improve academics in order to get into the AAU, to then get into the B10.

I think we could argue all day about which metric one should use in comparing universities. I think it's safe to say that if you have a fan interest, you are likely to choose the one which shows your own school in the most favorable light.

Frankly, I don't see much correlation between graduate school reputations and football affiliation. Last time I looked, there weren't all that many grad students playing football, and they weren't doing much publishing in peer reviewed journals.

The same goes for average SAT scores of incoming freshmen. IMO, the only SAT scores that matter or should matter to the NCAA, B1G, ACC, SEC or anybody in big-time athletics are the ones earned by scholarship athletes. And as for those scores, I'm not nearly as interested in the average score a school has as I am in the scores of the lowest quartile. An average score of 1050 wouldn't enlighten me nearly as much as knowing that half of the players scored 1400 and half scored 700.

I would be more impressed with a football conference's devotion to academic excellence if that devotion were extended to the composition of their football rosters. If you are Ohio State, you would like the public to view you as a peer of Northwestern. But if your football team has the same admission standards as those of Alabama, then Bama is your peer, not Northwestern. The latter is just somebody you are in the same country club with.
06-23-2014 09:06 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #42
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
IF the b1g were playing chess they would invite 10 pac 12 members, everybody but wash state and oreg state. THan break off into 3 pods of 8. The next move would be to jump to 32 by carving up the big 12, thus 4 pods of 8. Given, the big 10 would have 8 spots open to offer, that would be plenty to bring in texas and friends for their own central division. I guess you start with invites to texas, texas tech, ou, ok state, KU and missouri. It doesn't really matter who gets the final 2 or 3 if missouri declines. In the end, you would separate the 4 pods of 8 into 2 groupings of 16 but with one single organization.
06-23-2014 10:13 AM
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lumberpack4 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-23-2014 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(06-22-2014 10:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Undergraduates and media focus on US News rankings but they are easily skewed and gamed by the university. In essence they measure only the reputation of the undergraduate education, and don't measure the overall university by omitting the graduate and research componenent which is what B10 universities are about. For example:

"ARWU considers every university that has any Nobel Laureates, Fields Medalists, Highly Cited Researchers, or papers published in Nature or Science. In addition, universities with significant amount of papers indexed by Science Citation Index-Expanded (SCIE) and Social Science Citation Index (SSCI) are also included. In total, more than 1000 universities are actually ranked and the best 500 are published on the web.

Ranking Criteria and Weights

Universities are ranked by several indicators of academic or research performance, including alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, highly cited researchers, papers published in Nature and Science, papers indexed in major citation indices, and the per capita academic performance of an institution. For each indicator, the highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. The distribution of data for each indicator is examined for any significant distorting effect; standard statistical techniques are used to adjust the indicator if necessary. Scores for each indicator are weighted as shown below to arrive at a final overall score for an institution. The highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. An institution's rank reflects the number of institutions that sit above it.
Indicators and Weights for ARWU

Criteria

Indicator

Code

Weight

Quality of Education Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Alumni 10%
Quality of Faculty Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Award 20%
Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories HiCi 20%
Research Output Papers published in Nature and Science* N&S 20%
Papers indexed in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index PUB 20%
Per Capita Performance Per capita academic performance of an institution PCP 10%
Total 100%
* For institutions specialized in humanities and social sciences such as London School of Economics, N&S is not considered, and the weight of N&S is relocated to other indicators. "



For 2013 the Big 10 ranked as follows:

17. Wisky
18. Michigan
19. Illinois
21. Minnesotta
22. Northwestern
24. Maryland
37. Penn State
38. Purdue
39. Rutgers
41. Ohio State
50. Indiana
50. Michigan State
53-67. Iowa
86-108. Nebraska

By comparison the ACC:

23. Duke
30. UNC
39. Pitt
53-67. GT
53-67. UVa
68-85. NC State
68-85. Florida State
68-85. Miami
68-85. Virginia Tech
86-108. Notre Dame*
109 - 131 Clemson
109 - 131 Syracuse
109 - 131 Wake Forest*
132-149 Boston College*
Above 150 - Louisville
* Undergraduate focused universities.

Here's the SEC:

35. Vandy
43. UF
53-47. UGa
53-47. Texas A&M
68-85. Tennessee
86-108. LSU
86-108. Kentucky
86-108. Mizzou
109-131. South Carolina
132-149. Auburn
132-149. Arkansas
Above 150 - Ole Miss
Above 150 - MSU

ARWU rankings are one metric for how graduate research universities measure each other. B10's are all graduate research intensive, while the ACC mixes in several undergraduate focused universities. ACC universities are also smaller - on average 40% smaller than their B10 counterparts. The size of the average ACC graduate research component will also be smaller than that found in the B10.

For those enamoured with the AAU, consider that they have capped their membership at 63 with 2 from Canada. While you can't really take the ARWU rankings and make a match, since they are output measures, they help understand the difficulty of getting into the 63.

The last two voted in were GT and Boston University. When GT was voted upon NC State and Cincy were also being voted upon. You need 75% of the schools voting yes to gain admission. NC State is in the 68-85 range. Cincy is 86-108. The last two tossed out of the AAU are Nebraska 86-108, and Syracuse, 109-131.

From a practical standpoint, if your ARWU ranking is 68-85 you are on the cusp of being dumped from the ARWU, and you are at the cusp of getting an AAU vote. Kansas, Mizzou, SUNY-Buffalo, and Brandies are all above that range at 86-108.

As far as those who play B-5 football, those not in the AAU but at 85 and ranked better (meaning might one day make the AAU) include Miami, FSU, NC State, VT, Georgia, Tennessee.

Mizzou and Kansas who are in the AAU, could easily find their future to be like Nebraska and Syracuse - dumped out from AAU.

No one should be under any illusion they can "work hard" to improve academics in order to get into the AAU, to then get into the B10.

I think we could argue all day about which metric one should use in comparing universities. I think it's safe to say that if you have a fan interest, you are likely to choose the one which shows your own school in the most favorable light.

Frankly, I don't see much correlation between graduate school reputations and football affiliation. Last time I looked, there weren't all that many grad students playing football, and they weren't doing much publishing in peer reviewed journals.

The same goes for average SAT scores of incoming freshmen. IMO, the only SAT scores that matter or should matter to the NCAA, B1G, ACC, SEC or anybody in big-time athletics are the ones earned by scholarship athletes. And as for those scores, I'm not nearly as interested in the average score a school has as I am in the scores of the lowest quartile. An average score of 1050 wouldn't enlighten me nearly as much as knowing that half of the players scored 1400 and half scored 700.

I would be more impressed with a football conference's devotion to academic excellence if that devotion were extended to the composition of their football rosters. If you are Ohio State, you would like the public to view you as a peer of Northwestern. But if your football team has the same admission standards as those of Alabama, then Bama is your peer, not Northwestern. The latter is just somebody you are in the same country club with.

You missed the point of the information.
06-23-2014 05:56 PM
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jrj84105 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-22-2014 10:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  For 2013 the Big 10 ranked as follows (Average Rank 38.1):

17. Wisky
18. Michigan
19. Illinois
21. Minnesotta
22. Northwestern
24. Maryland
37. Penn State
38. Purdue
39. Rutgers
41. Ohio State
50. Indiana
50. Michigan State
53-67. Iowa
86-108. Nebraska

By comparison the ACC:

23. Duke
30. UNC
39. Pitt
53-67. GT
53-67. UVa
68-85. NC State
68-85. Florida State
68-85. Miami
68-85. Virginia Tech
86-108. Notre Dame*
109 - 131 Clemson
109 - 131 Syracuse
109 - 131 Wake Forest*
132-149 Boston College*
Above 150 - Louisville
* Undergraduate focused universities.

Here's the SEC:

35. Vandy
43. UF
53-47. UGa
53-47. Texas A&M
68-85. Tennessee
86-108. LSU
86-108. Kentucky
86-108. Mizzou
109-131. South Carolina
132-149. Auburn
132-149. Arkansas
Above 150 - Ole Miss
Above 150 - MSU
To add the PAC and BigXII
BigXII
28. UT
53-67. Baylor
68-85. ISU
86-108. Kansas
109-131. KSU
19-131. Oklahoma
139-149. TTU
Above 150. WVU, OSU, TCU,

PAC12 (Average Rank 39.9)
2. Stanford
3. Cal
10. UCLA
14. Washington
25. Colorado
33. USC
45. Arizona
46. ASU
47. Utah
53-67. Oregon State
86-108. Oregon
86-108. Washington State

If you cutoff at the top 50, before ARWU starts lumping:
ACC: 3/14
SEC: 2/14
B1G: 12/14
BigXII: 1/10
PAC: 9/12

If you cutoff at the bottom of the B1G (86-108):
ACC: 9/14
SEC: 8/14
B1G: 14/14
BigXII: 4/10
PAC: 12/12

It's interesting in light of comments from some BigXII members about academic affiliation that the BigXII is the lowest ranked of the P5 conferences from an ARWU standpoint.
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2014 08:09 PM by jrj84105.)
06-23-2014 06:43 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #45
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-23-2014 05:56 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  
(06-23-2014 09:06 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(06-22-2014 10:20 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Undergraduates and media focus on US News rankings but they are easily skewed and gamed by the university. In essence they measure only the reputation of the undergraduate education, and don't measure the overall university by omitting the graduate and research componenent which is what B10 universities are about. For example:

"ARWU considers every university that has any Nobel Laureates, Fields Medalists, Highly Cited Researchers, or papers published in Nature or Science. In addition, universities with significant amount of papers indexed by Science Citation Index-Expanded (SCIE) and Social Science Citation Index (SSCI) are also included. In total, more than 1000 universities are actually ranked and the best 500 are published on the web.

Ranking Criteria and Weights

Universities are ranked by several indicators of academic or research performance, including alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, highly cited researchers, papers published in Nature and Science, papers indexed in major citation indices, and the per capita academic performance of an institution. For each indicator, the highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. The distribution of data for each indicator is examined for any significant distorting effect; standard statistical techniques are used to adjust the indicator if necessary. Scores for each indicator are weighted as shown below to arrive at a final overall score for an institution. The highest scoring institution is assigned a score of 100, and other institutions are calculated as a percentage of the top score. An institution's rank reflects the number of institutions that sit above it.
Indicators and Weights for ARWU

Criteria

Indicator

Code

Weight

Quality of Education Alumni of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Alumni 10%
Quality of Faculty Staff of an institution winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals Award 20%
Highly cited researchers in 21 broad subject categories HiCi 20%
Research Output Papers published in Nature and Science* N&S 20%
Papers indexed in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index PUB 20%
Per Capita Performance Per capita academic performance of an institution PCP 10%
Total 100%
* For institutions specialized in humanities and social sciences such as London School of Economics, N&S is not considered, and the weight of N&S is relocated to other indicators. "



For 2013 the Big 10 ranked as follows:

17. Wisky
18. Michigan
19. Illinois
21. Minnesotta
22. Northwestern
24. Maryland
37. Penn State
38. Purdue
39. Rutgers
41. Ohio State
50. Indiana
50. Michigan State
53-67. Iowa
86-108. Nebraska

By comparison the ACC:

23. Duke
30. UNC
39. Pitt
53-67. GT
53-67. UVa
68-85. NC State
68-85. Florida State
68-85. Miami
68-85. Virginia Tech
86-108. Notre Dame*
109 - 131 Clemson
109 - 131 Syracuse
109 - 131 Wake Forest*
132-149 Boston College*
Above 150 - Louisville
* Undergraduate focused universities.

Here's the SEC:

35. Vandy
43. UF
53-47. UGa
53-47. Texas A&M
68-85. Tennessee
86-108. LSU
86-108. Kentucky
86-108. Mizzou
109-131. South Carolina
132-149. Auburn
132-149. Arkansas
Above 150 - Ole Miss
Above 150 - MSU

ARWU rankings are one metric for how graduate research universities measure each other. B10's are all graduate research intensive, while the ACC mixes in several undergraduate focused universities. ACC universities are also smaller - on average 40% smaller than their B10 counterparts. The size of the average ACC graduate research component will also be smaller than that found in the B10.

For those enamoured with the AAU, consider that they have capped their membership at 63 with 2 from Canada. While you can't really take the ARWU rankings and make a match, since they are output measures, they help understand the difficulty of getting into the 63.

The last two voted in were GT and Boston University. When GT was voted upon NC State and Cincy were also being voted upon. You need 75% of the schools voting yes to gain admission. NC State is in the 68-85 range. Cincy is 86-108. The last two tossed out of the AAU are Nebraska 86-108, and Syracuse, 109-131.

From a practical standpoint, if your ARWU ranking is 68-85 you are on the cusp of being dumped from the ARWU, and you are at the cusp of getting an AAU vote. Kansas, Mizzou, SUNY-Buffalo, and Brandies are all above that range at 86-108.

As far as those who play B-5 football, those not in the AAU but at 85 and ranked better (meaning might one day make the AAU) include Miami, FSU, NC State, VT, Georgia, Tennessee.

Mizzou and Kansas who are in the AAU, could easily find their future to be like Nebraska and Syracuse - dumped out from AAU.

No one should be under any illusion they can "work hard" to improve academics in order to get into the AAU, to then get into the B10.

I think we could argue all day about which metric one should use in comparing universities. I think it's safe to say that if you have a fan interest, you are likely to choose the one which shows your own school in the most favorable light.

Frankly, I don't see much correlation between graduate school reputations and football affiliation. Last time I looked, there weren't all that many grad students playing football, and they weren't doing much publishing in peer reviewed journals.

The same goes for average SAT scores of incoming freshmen. IMO, the only SAT scores that matter or should matter to the NCAA, B1G, ACC, SEC or anybody in big-time athletics are the ones earned by scholarship athletes. And as for those scores, I'm not nearly as interested in the average score a school has as I am in the scores of the lowest quartile. An average score of 1050 wouldn't enlighten me nearly as much as knowing that half of the players scored 1400 and half scored 700.

I would be more impressed with a football conference's devotion to academic excellence if that devotion were extended to the composition of their football rosters. If you are Ohio State, you would like the public to view you as a peer of Northwestern. But if your football team has the same admission standards as those of Alabama, then Bama is your peer, not Northwestern. The latter is just somebody you are in the same country club with.

You missed the point of the information.

I wasn't looking for one.
06-23-2014 07:05 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #46
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
"Conference expansion is about population grab" - Then the SEC stomped the B1G with the addition of Texas, not the other way around.

"UVA is not happy with the downtrodden of academics in the ACC" - yeah, right. Duke sucks and all that.

"the B1G will be the dominate conference in college" - really showed the quality of the analysis with this statement.

And what the frig is "gold fish"?
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2014 07:29 PM by orangefan.)
06-23-2014 07:26 PM
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Bearcats#1 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-23-2014 07:26 PM)orangefan Wrote:  "Conference expansion is about population grab" - Then the SEC stomped the B1G with the addition of Texas, not the other way around.

"UVA is not happy with the downtrodden of academics in the ACC" - yeah, right. Duke sucks and all that.

"the B1G will be the dominate conference in college" - really showed the quality of the analysis with this statement.

And what the frig is "gold fish"?


LOL no doubt.....spot on man
06-23-2014 08:14 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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Post: #48
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-21-2014 10:40 PM)Hawkeye Fan Wrote:  
(06-21-2014 10:24 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Yawn.

Delaney wishes he were half the Lex Luthor that poorly written article claims he is.

The B1G is in a dying part of the country and is desperate to stay ahead of its demographic doom.

Where is most of the fresh water in the USA?

Maine.
06-23-2014 09:51 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #49
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-23-2014 06:43 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  If you cutoff at the bottom of the B1G (86-108):
ACC: 9/14
SEC: 8/14
B1G: 14/14
BigXII: 4/10
PAC: 12/12

It's interesting in light of comments from some BigXII members about academic affiliation that the BigXII is the lowest ranked of the P5 conferences from an ARWU standpoint.

If you cut it off at the bottom of the B1G (86-108) which also happens to be the bottom of the Pac 12:

American 5/12 (better than Big 12)
MWC 3/12
CUSA 2/14
MAC 2/14
Sun Belt 0/12

Outside the P5, the American really is a nice mix of large public research schools and small private universities. ACC-lite in that regard.
06-24-2014 04:41 AM
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jrj84105 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-24-2014 04:41 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  
(06-23-2014 06:43 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  If you cutoff at the bottom of the B1G (86-108):
ACC: 9/14
SEC: 8/14
B1G: 14/14
BigXII: 4/10
PAC: 12/12

It's interesting in light of comments from some BigXII members about academic affiliation that the BigXII is the lowest ranked of the P5 conferences from an ARWU standpoint.

If you cut it off at the bottom of the B1G (86-108) which also happens to be the bottom of the Pac 12:

American 5/12 (better than Big 12)
MWC 3/12
CUSA 2/14
MAC 2/14
Sun Belt 0/12

Outside the P5, the American really is a nice mix of large public research schools and small private universities. ACC-lite in that regard.
Go5 All ARWU team
50. Rice
53-67: UMASS
68-85: CSU, HI
86-108: Buffalo, UAB, UCONN, UNM, UCF, Cinci, Hou, USF
East: UMASS, UCONN, Buffalo, Cinci, USF, UCF
West: UAB, Rice, Houston, UNM, CSU, HI

Geography aside, that almost seems like a real conference of like institutions.
Expand to the next tier (109-131) and you have your 16 team league
50. Rice
53-67: UMASS
68-85: CSU, HI
86-108: Buffalo, UAB, UCONN, UNM, UCF, Cinci, Hou, USF
109-131: Brigham Young, SDSU, Tulane, Temple
East: UMASS, UCONN, Buffalo, Temple, UAB, Cinci, USF, UCF
West: Tulane, Rice, Houston, UNM, CSU, BYU, SDSU, HI

Geographically diverse with all major population centers represented. Decent EW divisions. I like it.
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2014 02:02 PM by jrj84105.)
06-24-2014 01:58 PM
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stxrunner Offline
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Post: #51
RE: B1G and Pac-12 are playing chess, SEC is playing gold fish
(06-21-2014 11:36 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-21-2014 11:28 PM)slowknight Wrote:  The pac 10 has no interest in houston, their academicas are terrible and they aare a dumb commutwer school.

I'm not sure if this is a troll attempt or actually hilarious, either way it's awesome.

As you point out, this is either one of the greater troll posts I've ever seen or one of the most ironic posts ever made. Either way, it's hilarious and awesome.
06-24-2014 02:57 PM
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