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Perfect Symmetry
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westwolf Offline
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Post: #1
Perfect Symmetry
65 schools in the P5
65 schools in the mid-majors (G5) (Low revenue)

The first seems to be done expanding.
You have to wonder whether any more FCS schools will bother to "upgrade" to the second category any more.

Stasis
06-04-2014 06:10 PM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Perfect Symmetry
There are about 6-12 schools in the G5 that can make compelling cases for relegation to the P5. Until TV money says ok...we might be at a temporary impasse.
06-04-2014 11:11 PM
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stxrunner Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-04-2014 11:11 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  There are about 6-12 schools in the G5 that can make compelling cases for relegation to the P5. Until TV money says ok...we might be at a temporary impasse.

I think you meant promotion. Either that, or I woke up in an alternate universe this morning. 03-drunk
06-05-2014 10:25 AM
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TexanMark Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-05-2014 10:25 AM)stxrunner Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 11:11 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  There are about 6-12 schools in the G5 that can make compelling cases for relegation to the P5. Until TV money says ok...we might be at a temporary impasse.

I think you meant promotion. Either that, or I woke up in an alternate universe this morning. 03-drunk

Yes, you did 04-cheers...I'm not a soccer guy and I thought relegation was the process of either moving up or down. Guess I was wrong? Anyways looking for a Cincy Promotion to the ACC or B12.
06-05-2014 01:27 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-05-2014 01:27 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Yes, you did 04-cheers...I'm not a soccer guy and I thought relegation was the process of either moving up or down. Guess I was wrong? Anyways looking for a Cincy Promotion to the ACC or B12.
Now you got it ... in the "association football" the full phrase is "promotion & relegation", as in:

"Dreary Midlands United are riding high, hoping for promotion into the Premier League as they head into the final phase of their Championship League campaign, ...
... while FC Dreary Midlands are fearing relegation as they struggle to gain a Premier League victory."
06-05-2014 01:43 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Perfect Symmetry
I am a huge fan of symmetry but I don't believe this is a good application for it. If you really want symmetry it should be 64 teams.

As TM noted, there are a number of teams that could be P5. There are also a number of P5 teams that should not be. The same is probably true of G5. Applying a symmetry standard seems arbitrary.

The NCAA itself is asymmetrical. They offer 1 division in some sports. 2, 3 or 4 in some others. Some sports are categorized as men or women, a few are not.
06-08-2014 07:59 AM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
The Big Sky wants to make it a G6.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/...-mixed-bag

Quote:The potential break of the Power 5 conferences could be a good thing for the Big Sky and other top FCS leagues.

With the Power 5 basically playing in a world of its own, the secondary division of football could turn out to be a strong alliance of the top of the FCS world — including UND and the Big Sky — and already strong existing FBS programs, the schools unable or unwilling to compete with the Auburns and Alabamas of the college world.

That potential alliance could also have a playoff structure, which definitely should exist in college football.

Quote:Fullerton said the league is always considering expansion for the 12-team league (13 for football).

“There are some schools out there that we monitor,” he said. “And if we’re ever able to create that merger piece, I think we might get to 16 schools.”
06-08-2014 02:53 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-08-2014 02:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The Big Sky wants to make it a G6.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/...-mixed-bag

Quote:The potential break of the Power 5 conferences could be a good thing for the Big Sky and other top FCS leagues.

With the Power 5 basically playing in a world of its own, the secondary division of football could turn out to be a strong alliance of the top of the FCS world — including UND and the Big Sky — and already strong existing FBS programs, the schools unable or unwilling to compete with the Auburns and Alabamas of the college world.

That potential alliance could also have a playoff structure, which definitely should exist in college football.

Quote:Fullerton said the league is always considering expansion for the 12-team league (13 for football).

“There are some schools out there that we monitor,” he said. “And if we’re ever able to create that merger piece, I think we might get to 16 schools.”

Not really. It wouldn't be the Big Sky moving up to meet the G5. It would be more like the G5 falling down to FCS. The end product would be the same as FCS is now. Nobody cares about who wins FCS. Nobody would care about the second division--regardless of its make-up.

The American public can get pretty jazzed about the top level of college football and its championship. When it comes to the top level of college football, it doesn't even have to be a championship to draw viewer interest. Ratings are strong for bowl games that are nothing more than special games pitting winning teams from various conferences together during the holiday season. Doesn't even matter if the bowl participants are P5 or G5. The worst ratings for the worst G5 vs G5 bowl are about 10X the ratings for the FCS championship game.

Nobody would give a flying fig about the winner of second level of college football---just like now. They don't care who the 126th best team in the country is right now---just as they wont care about the identity of the 66th best team in the country if there was a G5 playoff (or G-6 or G-10). They only care about the division where the #1 team in the country will come from. That's why the G5 will do whatever is necessary to stay at the top level of football.

You have to understand that sports teams are simply the public face of the university and the primary marketing arm of the school. FCS athletics cant come close to the level of prestige, exposure, and positive press schools get by playing at the top level of college football. A stipend isn't going to chase off any FBS schools and the FBS schools are not going to risk alienating the P5 by voting down autonomy. The G5 will do what is necessary to stay linked to the P5.
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 03:44 PM by Attackcoog.)
06-08-2014 03:34 PM
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CurveItAround Offline
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Post: #9
Perfect Symmetry
Until the rules are rewritten, the P5 has essentially capped the size of the G5. No new conferences are eligible to receive a share of revenue (12mm to each of the existing 5 conferences). The conferences are penalized by growing as well. I would be surprised with anything other than potentially one new football team in SBC and no real reason for them to expand since they don't receive any additional money.
06-08-2014 04:55 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Perfect Symmetry
(06-08-2014 04:55 PM)CurveItAround Wrote:  Until the rules are rewritten, the P5 has essentially capped the size of the G5. No new conferences are eligible to receive a share of revenue (12mm to each of the existing 5 conferences). The conferences are penalized by growing as well. I would be surprised with anything other than potentially one new football team in SBC and no real reason for them to expand since they don't receive any additional money.
I wouldn't be surprised if some type of backdoor deal is made for the Sun Belt to take Army or UMass as a form of "population control" for FBS.
06-08-2014 06:21 PM
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-08-2014 06:21 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 04:55 PM)CurveItAround Wrote:  Until the rules are rewritten, the P5 has essentially capped the size of the G5. No new conferences are eligible to receive a share of revenue (12mm to each of the existing 5 conferences). The conferences are penalized by growing as well. I would be surprised with anything other than potentially one new football team in SBC and no real reason for them to expand since they don't receive any additional money.
I wouldn't be surprised if some type of backdoor deal is made for the Sun Belt to take Army or UMass as a form of "population control" for FBS.

Army? Yes, please.
06-08-2014 10:26 PM
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TStatebobcat Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-08-2014 03:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 02:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The Big Sky wants to make it a G6.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/...-mixed-bag

Quote:The potential break of the Power 5 conferences could be a good thing for the Big Sky and other top FCS leagues.

With the Power 5 basically playing in a world of its own, the secondary division of football could turn out to be a strong alliance of the top of the FCS world — including UND and the Big Sky — and already strong existing FBS programs, the schools unable or unwilling to compete with the Auburns and Alabamas of the college world.

That potential alliance could also have a playoff structure, which definitely should exist in college football.

Quote:Fullerton said the league is always considering expansion for the 12-team league (13 for football).

“There are some schools out there that we monitor,” he said. “And if we’re ever able to create that merger piece, I think we might get to 16 schools.”

Not really. It wouldn't be the Big Sky moving up to meet the G5. It would be more like the G5 falling down to FCS. The end product would be the same as FCS is now. Nobody cares about who wins FCS. Nobody would care about the second division--regardless of its make-up.

The American public can get pretty jazzed about the top level of college football and its championship. When it comes to the top level of college football, it doesn't even have to be a championship to draw viewer interest. Ratings are strong for bowl games that are nothing more than special games pitting winning teams from various conferences together during the holiday season. Doesn't even matter if the bowl participants are P5 or G5. The worst ratings for the worst G5 vs G5 bowl are about 10X the ratings for the FCS championship game.

Nobody would give a flying fig about the winner of second level of college football---just like now. They don't care who the 126th best team in the country is right now---just as they wont care about the identity of the 66th best team in the country if there was a G5 playoff (or G-6 or G-10). They only care about the division where the #1 team in the country will come from. That's why the G5 will do whatever is necessary to stay at the top level of football.

You have to understand that sports teams are simply the public face of the university and the primary marketing arm of the school. FCS athletics cant come close to the level of prestige, exposure, and positive press schools get by playing at the top level of college football. A stipend isn't going to chase off any FBS schools and the FBS schools are not going to risk alienating the P5 by voting down autonomy. The G5 will do what is necessary to stay linked to the P5.

The FCS championship usually has better ratings than 2 or 3 bowls at the bottom. That's with almost no mention of it in the media. That was always one of my complains when TxSt was in FCS. ESPN rarely if ever even mentioned the game was being played on sports center or any of their other shows.

With that said, if the P5 ever split, the G5 should fight like hell to control which schools move up. Using the the Big Sky conference as an example, the Montana schools and maybe Eastern Washington would be good move up candidates the rest of BSC schools need to stay FCS. Unless they decide to spend the money necessary to move up.
06-09-2014 05:50 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: Perfect Symmetry
(06-09-2014 05:50 AM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 03:34 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 02:53 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The Big Sky wants to make it a G6.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/content/...-mixed-bag

Quote:The potential break of the Power 5 conferences could be a good thing for the Big Sky and other top FCS leagues.

With the Power 5 basically playing in a world of its own, the secondary division of football could turn out to be a strong alliance of the top of the FCS world — including UND and the Big Sky — and already strong existing FBS programs, the schools unable or unwilling to compete with the Auburns and Alabamas of the college world.

That potential alliance could also have a playoff structure, which definitely should exist in college football.

Quote:Fullerton said the league is always considering expansion for the 12-team league (13 for football).

“There are some schools out there that we monitor,” he said. “And if we’re ever able to create that merger piece, I think we might get to 16 schools.”

Not really. It wouldn't be the Big Sky moving up to meet the G5. It would be more like the G5 falling down to FCS. The end product would be the same as FCS is now. Nobody cares about who wins FCS. Nobody would care about the second division--regardless of its make-up.

The American public can get pretty jazzed about the top level of college football and its championship. When it comes to the top level of college football, it doesn't even have to be a championship to draw viewer interest. Ratings are strong for bowl games that are nothing more than special games pitting winning teams from various conferences together during the holiday season. Doesn't even matter if the bowl participants are P5 or G5. The worst ratings for the worst G5 vs G5 bowl are about 10X the ratings for the FCS championship game.

Nobody would give a flying fig about the winner of second level of college football---just like now. They don't care who the 126th best team in the country is right now---just as they wont care about the identity of the 66th best team in the country if there was a G5 playoff (or G-6 or G-10). They only care about the division where the #1 team in the country will come from. That's why the G5 will do whatever is necessary to stay at the top level of football.

You have to understand that sports teams are simply the public face of the university and the primary marketing arm of the school. FCS athletics cant come close to the level of prestige, exposure, and positive press schools get by playing at the top level of college football. A stipend isn't going to chase off any FBS schools and the FBS schools are not going to risk alienating the P5 by voting down autonomy. The G5 will do what is necessary to stay linked to the P5.

The FCS championship usually has better ratings than 2 or 3 bowls at the bottom. That's with almost no mention of it in the media. That was always one of my complains when TxSt was in FCS. ESPN rarely if ever even mentioned the game was being played on sports center or any of their other shows.

With that said, if the P5 ever split, the G5 should fight like hell to control which schools move up. Using the the Big Sky conference as an example, the Montana schools and maybe Eastern Washington would be good move up candidates the rest of BSC schools need to stay FCS. Unless they decide to spend the money necessary to move up.

The fact that its not even mentioned on ESPN should give you an idea of how any second tier division would be treated.

Couldn't find a comparison for last year. I was able to find a complete ratings chart for the 2012-2013 bowl season that included the FCS playoffs. The FCS championship game beat one bowl game that year (Heart of Dallas-Oklahoma vs Purdue at 11AM CT on New Years morning--.5 rating). The championship also tied the Fight Hunger Bowl (Arizona St vs Navy 5pm CT 12/29/2012---.7 rating).

So, yes--you are correct. 10X was hyperbole. The FCS championship scored a .7 in the rating books. That said, 32 out 34 bowls scored better than the FCS championship. 28 out 34 scored double the FCS championship game or better. Four more bowls scored a 1.3---falling a tenth of a point from doubling the FCS CCG game rating. So 32 out of 34 doubled or nearly doubled the FCS championship game rating. The average bowl rating was a 3.2 Interestingly, a FCS quarterfinal (Old Dominion vs Georgia Southern) did better than the FCS CCG with a 1.1 rating. Of course, this game was on December 8th, the week after championship Saturday---so no FBS football competition other than the Army-Navy game.

http://www.championshipsubdivision.com/f...4&p=740643
(This post was last modified: 06-10-2014 01:45 AM by Attackcoog.)
06-10-2014 01:33 AM
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