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Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-12-2018 12:07 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The biggest roadblock to entering was some of the wealthiest and most prominent Americans.
You had Ford and Lindbergh who supported Hitler.
Lindbergh did not “support Hitler.”
01-12-2018 07:04 PM
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Post: #112
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
Had Hitler accepted peace terms with russia and just left England an island before the Battle of Britain the game short play was over.

Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered along with innumerable other human misery.
01-12-2018 07:57 PM
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Post: #113
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-12-2018 07:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:07 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The biggest roadblock to entering was some of the wealthiest and most prominent Americans.
You had Ford and Lindbergh who supported Hitler.
Lindbergh did not “support Hitler.”

We are talking about the guy who said the agitators to join the war were FDR, the British and the Jews?
01-14-2018 01:07 AM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-14-2018 01:07 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:07 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The biggest roadblock to entering was some of the wealthiest and most prominent Americans.
You had Ford and Lindbergh who supported Hitler.
Lindbergh did not “support Hitler.”

We are talking about the guy who said the agitators to join the war were FDR, the British and the Jews?
Indeed.
01-15-2018 12:26 AM
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Post: #115
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-14-2018 01:07 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 07:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 12:07 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  The biggest roadblock to entering was some of the wealthiest and most prominent Americans.
You had Ford and Lindbergh who supported Hitler.
Lindbergh did not “support Hitler.”
We are talking about the guy who said the agitators to join the war were FDR, the British and the Jews?

Lindbergh supported neutrality, which I suppose was indirectly benefitting Hitler. But I'm not aware of his support for Hitler. He is from an area with a lot of people of German descent, and I think many of them emotionally supported Germany if not Hitler.
01-15-2018 12:31 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-12-2018 05:24 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 02:00 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 11:17 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I haven't read the entire thread, but IMO the ultimate determinant on which side was going to win was whether the U.S. jumps into the war or stays out of it. If the Japanese never attack Hawaii and the U.S. are never drawn into the war, the Axis wins the war. Since the U.S. entered on the side of the Allies, the WWII would have been won by the allies sooner or later. The U.S.had attributes that the Axis could not overcome - like a large population base, significant natural resources, the best manufacturing base in the world and the advantage of being located far away from the major battlefields. Despite the late technological advances made by the Germans with the jet engine, V1 and V2 missiles and the research on the atomic bomb - all of that was too little and too late.

I imagine a lot of brits would roll their eyes at this statement, because its a very "American" way to view things. You are right in the sense that the US entering the war makes it almost impossible for the axis to win (And both Germany and Japan knew a war with the US was a losing battle) The thing is, I don't think the US stays out regardless.

It's very likely even without Pearl Harbor that the US enters the war eventually anyway. By the time Pearl Harbor happened, the US had already agreed to the land lease deal with Britain, and were already supplying the allied forces. Public Sentiment was already starting to turn in favor of fighting.

Even if you look at Europe, I think there is little chance the US stays neutral forever. FDR was convinced after Dunkirk that the Britiah would surrender. He had already begun to try and work out and arrangement for the UK to sail its Navy into American and Canadian harbors, so the Germans could not make use of them. Those are not actions of a "neutral country"

We were always looking for a way to enter that war. All we needed was a reason. Eventually that reason would have been provided...with or without Pearl Harbor.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. While imo FDR may have underestimated Stalin and didn't anticipate the scale of what the Cold War would become after his death, I think he and many within the government were aware of the threat Nazi Germany posed if left free to their own devices. Had they been allowed to continue unopposed and win the war you may have seen an alternate Iron Curtain of fascism emerge out of Europe and East Asia that would've been diametrically opposed to American values (especially given that the Holocaust wasn't going to remain a secret forever), and in that we would've had no choice but to fight unless we wanted to see the domino theory play out.

While I'm not a believer of the 'FDR knew about Pearl Harbor' theory, he had to have known that the oil embargo was going to have repercussions that were likely to hit the US and given us cause to enter. Hell, the US has gone to war over a lot less, something like the sinking of the USS Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was enough to incite wars under far less tense circumstances.

Regardless of what Hitler did, the U.S. was going to be dragged into WW2 because of the Japanese. In particular with the Japanese, I'm surprised that they chose to go after the U.S. as opposed to focusing more on Russia and the vast natural resources there. I don't know enough about the petroleum industry in the USSR during the 30s into the 40s, so perhaps the issue was that their energy supply was grossly underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and that was why Japan took the gambit of attacking the U.S. the USSR is right on their doorstep, and the red army was pretty weak when Hitler invaded.
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Post: #117
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(Yesterday 08:41 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:24 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 02:00 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(01-11-2018 11:17 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I haven't read the entire thread, but IMO the ultimate determinant on which side was going to win was whether the U.S. jumps into the war or stays out of it. If the Japanese never attack Hawaii and the U.S. are never drawn into the war, the Axis wins the war. Since the U.S. entered on the side of the Allies, the WWII would have been won by the allies sooner or later. The U.S.had attributes that the Axis could not overcome - like a large population base, significant natural resources, the best manufacturing base in the world and the advantage of being located far away from the major battlefields. Despite the late technological advances made by the Germans with the jet engine, V1 and V2 missiles and the research on the atomic bomb - all of that was too little and too late.

I imagine a lot of brits would roll their eyes at this statement, because its a very "American" way to view things. You are right in the sense that the US entering the war makes it almost impossible for the axis to win (And both Germany and Japan knew a war with the US was a losing battle) The thing is, I don't think the US stays out regardless.

It's very likely even without Pearl Harbor that the US enters the war eventually anyway. By the time Pearl Harbor happened, the US had already agreed to the land lease deal with Britain, and were already supplying the allied forces. Public Sentiment was already starting to turn in favor of fighting.

Even if you look at Europe, I think there is little chance the US stays neutral forever. FDR was convinced after Dunkirk that the Britiah would surrender. He had already begun to try and work out and arrangement for the UK to sail its Navy into American and Canadian harbors, so the Germans could not make use of them. Those are not actions of a "neutral country"

We were always looking for a way to enter that war. All we needed was a reason. Eventually that reason would have been provided...with or without Pearl Harbor.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. While imo FDR may have underestimated Stalin and didn't anticipate the scale of what the Cold War would become after his death, I think he and many within the government were aware of the threat Nazi Germany posed if left free to their own devices. Had they been allowed to continue unopposed and win the war you may have seen an alternate Iron Curtain of fascism emerge out of Europe and East Asia that would've been diametrically opposed to American values (especially given that the Holocaust wasn't going to remain a secret forever), and in that we would've had no choice but to fight unless we wanted to see the domino theory play out.

While I'm not a believer of the 'FDR knew about Pearl Harbor' theory, he had to have known that the oil embargo was going to have repercussions that were likely to hit the US and given us cause to enter. Hell, the US has gone to war over a lot less, something like the sinking of the USS Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was enough to incite wars under far less tense circumstances.

Regardless of what Hitler did, the U.S. was going to be dragged into WW2 because of the Japanese. In particular with the Japanese, I'm surprised that they chose to go after the U.S. as opposed to focusing more on Russia and the vast natural resources there. I don't know enough about the petroleum industry in the USSR during the 30s into the 40s, so perhaps the issue was that their energy supply was grossly underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and that was why Japan took the gambit of attacking the U.S. the USSR is right on their doorstep, and the red army was pretty weak when Hitler invaded.

The US had a navy in the Pacific and more importantly, the Phillipines. If the Phillipines were already independent, the Japanese may not have made the Pearl Harbor mistake and continued just fighting the British and Chinese. They had their hands full with that.
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Post: #118
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(Yesterday 08:41 AM)miko33 Wrote:  Regardless of what Hitler did, the U.S. was going to be dragged into WW2 because of the Japanese. In particular with the Japanese, I'm surprised that they chose to go after the U.S. as opposed to focusing more on Russia and the vast natural resources there. I don't know enough about the petroleum industry in the USSR during the 30s into the 40s, so perhaps the issue was that their energy supply was grossly underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and that was why Japan took the gambit of attacking the U.S. the USSR is right on their doorstep, and the red army was pretty weak when Hitler invaded.

The Wehrmact was defeated by the Russian winter, without every getting to Siberia. Japan would have had to work its way all the way across Siberia before getting to anything that was worthwhile. There's no way they could have maintained the necessary logistics pipeline to support that kind of operation with the infrastructure available to them in Siberia.
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Post: #119
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(Yesterday 08:41 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:24 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I tend to agree with this sentiment. While imo FDR may have underestimated Stalin and didn't anticipate the scale of what the Cold War would become after his death, I think he and many within the government were aware of the threat Nazi Germany posed if left free to their own devices. Had they been allowed to continue unopposed and win the war you may have seen an alternate Iron Curtain of fascism emerge out of Europe and East Asia that would've been diametrically opposed to American values (especially given that the Holocaust wasn't going to remain a secret forever), and in that we would've had no choice but to fight unless we wanted to see the domino theory play out.

While I'm not a believer of the 'FDR knew about Pearl Harbor' theory, he had to have known that the oil embargo was going to have repercussions that were likely to hit the US and given us cause to enter. Hell, the US has gone to war over a lot less, something like the sinking of the USS Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was enough to incite wars under far less tense circumstances.

Regardless of what Hitler did, the U.S. was going to be dragged into WW2 because of the Japanese. In particular with the Japanese, I'm surprised that they chose to go after the U.S. as opposed to focusing more on Russia and the vast natural resources there. I don't know enough about the petroleum industry in the USSR during the 30s into the 40s, so perhaps the issue was that their energy supply was grossly underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and that was why Japan took the gambit of attacking the U.S. the USSR is right on their doorstep, and the red army was pretty weak when Hitler invaded.

At the end of the day FDR and the higher-ups knew that Hitler in Europe was the bigger fish to fry. Japanese actions made it convenient for us to enter, but had they managed not to directly provoke us at some point point we would've gotten involved imo. Even if there was quite a bit of isolationist sentiment present within the population and Congress at the time, FDR would've had enough political clout to eventually push us into the war under similar justification as Wilson's "make the world safe for democracy" argument, combined with an appeal to humanitarian morality against a genocidal regime. The Selective Service Act was signed into law over a year before Pearl Harbor after all, and primarily in response to the fall of France.
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Post: #120
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(Yesterday 06:45 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(Yesterday 08:41 AM)miko33 Wrote:  
(01-12-2018 05:24 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I tend to agree with this sentiment. While imo FDR may have underestimated Stalin and didn't anticipate the scale of what the Cold War would become after his death, I think he and many within the government were aware of the threat Nazi Germany posed if left free to their own devices. Had they been allowed to continue unopposed and win the war you may have seen an alternate Iron Curtain of fascism emerge out of Europe and East Asia that would've been diametrically opposed to American values (especially given that the Holocaust wasn't going to remain a secret forever), and in that we would've had no choice but to fight unless we wanted to see the domino theory play out.

While I'm not a believer of the 'FDR knew about Pearl Harbor' theory, he had to have known that the oil embargo was going to have repercussions that were likely to hit the US and given us cause to enter. Hell, the US has gone to war over a lot less, something like the sinking of the USS Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was enough to incite wars under far less tense circumstances.

Regardless of what Hitler did, the U.S. was going to be dragged into WW2 because of the Japanese. In particular with the Japanese, I'm surprised that they chose to go after the U.S. as opposed to focusing more on Russia and the vast natural resources there. I don't know enough about the petroleum industry in the USSR during the 30s into the 40s, so perhaps the issue was that their energy supply was grossly underdeveloped compared to the U.S. and that was why Japan took the gambit of attacking the U.S. the USSR is right on their doorstep, and the red army was pretty weak when Hitler invaded.

At the end of the day FDR and the higher-ups knew that Hitler in Europe was the bigger fish to fry. Japanese actions made it convenient for us to enter, but had they managed not to directly provoke us at some point point we would've gotten involved imo. Even if there was quite a bit of isolationist sentiment present within the population and Congress at the time, FDR would've had enough political clout to eventually push us into the war under similar justification as Wilson's "make the world safe for democracy" argument, combined with an appeal to humanitarian morality against a genocidal regime. The Selective Service Act was signed into law over a year before Pearl Harbor after all, and primarily in response to the fall of France.

If Japan's Army hadn't stalled out on the Asian mainland, the Empire never would have had to turn west to meet their raw material needs.
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