Interesting rant on how English soccer has become less competitive since the "big boys" broke off to manage their own finances, notably most of the hangers on with the big boys are now much worse off despite making more money than ever.
http://www.bigsoccer.com/soccer/dan-lone...trous-idea

Kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

Besides, if a split did happen, why are we assuming the lower P5 wouldn't still pad their wins with G5 and FCS like they do now? There's no rule against cross division play and while some G5 would refuse out of principal, most of the rest would be more than willing to take the pay check and get their team on TV.

Do you have an autotext for that response?

The English Premier League experience was that the wealthiest of the wealthy got even wealthier and left the formerly merely wealthy further behind.

Sure there can be cross-division games, but brand differently their value is less, that means you cannot extract premium pricing for them and pollster and selection committees value those wins even less than they value the G5/P5 games.

Schools dependent on those games to produce .500 records or eke above .500 will fall further and further behind their richer conference mates weakening them even more.

get it into your head. college athletics =/= pro sports.

there are a huge amount of different factors involved not seen in any pro sport. pro soccer doesn't have to deal with academics, alumni, demographics, state funding, students, recruiting, reaching prospective students, and maintaining historic rivalries.

(05-22-2014 04:22 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Besides, if a split did happen, why are we assuming the lower P5 wouldn't still pad their wins with G5 and FCS like they do now?

Indeed, if splitting away from the Go5 would interfere with padding their wins with Go5 games, why are we assuming that they would split away from the Go5 in the first place? After all, a too small basketball tournament risks the NCAA tournament retaining substantial value, so there may well be more value to the P5 in a 160 school breakaway than in a 70 school breakaway.

I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

(05-22-2014 05:28 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:22 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Besides, if a split did happen, why are we assuming the lower P5 wouldn't still pad their wins with G5 and FCS like they do now?

Indeed, if splitting away from the Go5 would interfere with padding their wins with Go5 games, why are we assuming that they would split away from the Go5 in the first place? After all, a too small basketball tournament risks the NCAA tournament retaining substantial value, so there may well be more value to the P5 in a 160 school breakaway than in a 70 school breakaway.

BB would take a hit without the mid-majors

FB not so much. If you reduce bowl eligibility requirements + expand the regular season and push an extended regular season slate of entirely p5 it would be a total improvement IMO.

i don't mind seeing the entire p5 take up all of the 64 bowl slots. it would elevate conference bragging rights, elevate revenues, give us more OOC matchups, and if it is 4-8 vs 4-8 teams who played nothing but p5 schools all season.......

heck yeah.

(05-22-2014 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

IMHO, yes - it will keep the dividing line in the conferences even sharper, and knock more out of the way.

(05-22-2014 06:04 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:28 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:22 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Besides, if a split did happen, why are we assuming the lower P5 wouldn't still pad their wins with G5 and FCS like they do now?

Indeed, if splitting away from the Go5 would interfere with padding their wins with Go5 games, why are we assuming that they would split away from the Go5 in the first place? After all, a too small basketball tournament risks the NCAA tournament retaining substantial value, so there may well be more value to the P5 in a 160 school breakaway than in a 70 school breakaway.

BB would take a hit without the mid-majors

FB not so much. If you reduce bowl eligibility requirements + expand the regular season and push an extended regular season slate of entirely p5 it would be a total improvement IMO.

i don't mind seeing the entire p5 take up all of the 64 bowl slots. it would elevate conference bragging rights, elevate revenues, give us more OOC matchups, and if it is 4-8 vs 4-8 teams who played nothing but p5 schools all season.......

heck yeah.

you may be the only one watching that garbage.

(05-22-2014 04:49 PM)john01992 Wrote:  get it into your head. college athletics =/= pro sports.

there are a huge amount of different factors involved not seen in any pro sport. pro soccer doesn't have to deal with academics, alumni, demographics, state funding, students, recruiting, reaching prospective students, and maintaining historic rivalries.

Exactly.

A football program exists for the purpose of building the academic brand. No matter how good Alabama or Clemson gets at football, they will NEVER have the academic brand of Rice, BYU, or Army (or for that matter, UConn and SDSU). The P5 wants to keep these schools around because beating them does a better job of building their brand.

Whenever you see two teams play each other, you unconsciously are comparing their brand names based on the outcome. So when Syracuse beats Buffalo, your subconscious thinks that Syracuse is a better university than Buffalo.

This is a big reason the P5 want the NCAA around. The last thing the P5 wants is for you to think that Syracuse beat Buffalo because Syracuse pays its athletes.

This is also why I think they want to keep playing FCS teams in basketball: they want to keep playing the Ivies, and to a lesser extent the elite liberal arts schools. For example, watching Stanford defeat Harvard implies something completely different for the brand of Stanford than if they defeat Boston College.

(05-22-2014 04:49 PM)john01992 Wrote:  get it into your head. college athletics =/= pro sports.

there are a huge amount of different factors involved not seen in any pro sport. pro soccer doesn't have to deal with academics, alumni, demographics, state funding, students, recruiting, reaching prospective students, and maintaining historic rivalries.

lets see, many athletes read at a 3rd grade level and rarely attend classes so we can ignore academics. The programs want to pay the players and make huge amounts of money from TV so there is that in common. Historic rivalries mean nothing as proven by programs that have abandoned huge historic rivalries for money. So money is the most important thing to the college teams, just like it is for a pro team owner...

The only big difference is how the teams get players, college programs just use fancy locker rooms/dorms and have hot girls have sex with the high school recruits when they are on campus visits rather than just throwing a big contract at them.

(05-22-2014 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

That really is the point. Mississippi State hasn't been winning the SEC but they have been able to claim some winning seasons and a big part of that winning comes from beating smaller name teams than them which they can point to being "elite" over. If those are gone MSU is the bottom and that won't sit as well as what they have now. It is all perception and right now you can pretend that all is well because you are better than 50-60 other schools (sounds great) rather than the bottom of the barrel (if you go with just P5).

Again,

Why are we assuming those games would be gone?

MSU could still play USM and Memphis and Jackson State from the seperate P5 as they do today.

(05-22-2014 06:13 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

IMHO, yes - it will keep the dividing line in the conferences even sharper, and knock more out of the way.

Yes I agree because the larger these P5 conferences go the more schools that will finish the season lower than 8th in the standings, in other words buried pretty low.

(05-22-2014 07:30 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

That really is the point. Mississippi State hasn't been winning the SEC but they have been able to claim some winning seasons and a big part of that winning comes from beating smaller name teams than them which they can point to being "elite" over. If those are gone MSU is the bottom and that won't sit as well as what they have now. It is all perception and right now you can pretend that all is well because you are better than 50-60 other schools (sounds great) rather than the bottom of the barrel (if you go with just P5).

No, that's a different point. He was arguing that schools like Miss St would fall farther behind the powers within the P5, and my response was, essentially, they've always been that far behind.

(05-22-2014 03:08 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Interesting rant on how English soccer has become less competitive since the "big boys" broke off to manage their own finances, notably most of the hangers on with the big boys are now much worse off despite making more money than ever.
http://www.bigsoccer.com/soccer/dan-lone...trous-idea

That is what you sign up for when you're a Utah, WVU, Rutgers type program joining a P5.

Due to football pedigree, you cannot fault a school wanting to be that 15th member of the SEC or B1G. The PAC has excellent academics.

When you start talking at the level of the ACC....welcome to joining a large sea of schools on the East Coast. I'm not sure if you are Syracuse or Pittsburgh that the ACC will help your recruiting. It will be harder to win a conference championship in football that is clear. They'll watch recruiting shift to the Cincinnati's that are going to dominate a G5 because they'll dominate the conference TV package and be in play for an Access Bowl.

(05-22-2014 07:49 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 07:30 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:54 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I think the analogy may hold more for differences within the P5. The Alabama's/Ohio States etc will dominate even more. The Wazzoos will fall further behind

More than they have in the last 100 years? Really? When was the last time Mississippi State won the SEC in football?

That really is the point. Mississippi State hasn't been winning the SEC but they have been able to claim some winning seasons and a big part of that winning comes from beating smaller name teams than them which they can point to being "elite" over. If those are gone MSU is the bottom and that won't sit as well as what they have now. It is all perception and right now you can pretend that all is well because you are better than 50-60 other schools (sounds great) rather than the bottom of the barrel (if you go with just P5).

No, that's a different point. He was arguing that schools like Miss St would fall farther behind the powers within the P5, and my response was, essentially, they've always been that far behind.

I don't think its going to be a resource issue for the Miss St's as much as Having to be better than 5 SEC programs every year just to finish 9th in the conference.

If a school finished better the 5 Big East schools in the old 8 team football conference that made you 3rd in the standings.

Evolve to 16 team P4's and securing a decent conference finish becomes more problematic.

(05-22-2014 06:04 PM)john01992 Wrote:  BB would take a hit without the mid-majors

FB not so much. If you reduce bowl eligibility requirements + expand the regular season and push an extended regular season slate of entirely p5 it would be a total improvement IMO.

What would the bowl eligibility requirements be, 5 wins? 4 wins?

You've got all these tertiary bowls providing bonus TV football games, and its an entirely open question whether you can dip into the athletic budgets of 4-8 schools with their invite to what used to be a Go5 bowl game in the same way that you could dip into the athletic budgets of the Go5 schools happy that going 8-4 was good enough to let them go bowling.

I think it requires more than a little naivete to believe that the P5 have been "forced" to "give" the Go5 what it has ... the reality is far more likely to be that the Go5 is getting paid fee for service, and likely not top dollar fee for service either. And if the P5 is getting what they pay for from the Go5, then there is no big hidden pot of gold to be had by breaking away from the Go5, when breaking away with the Go5 and select others would go so far to muddle political backlash to the breakaway.

I don't see the hefty increase in college FB earning potential that would be equivalent to flipping the Big Dance from 20% revenue to the conferences of the participants to 80%, and it would not only have to be equivalent to justify fumbling the BBall side of the breakaway, it would have to be substantially better.

(05-22-2014 08:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:04 PM)john01992 Wrote:  BB would take a hit without the mid-majors

FB not so much. If you reduce bowl eligibility requirements + expand the regular season and push an extended regular season slate of entirely p5 it would be a total improvement IMO.

What would the bowl eligibility requirements be, 5 wins? 4 wins?

You've got all these tertiary bowls providing bonus TV football games, and its an entirely open question whether you can dip into the athletic budgets of 4-8 schools with their invite to what used to be a Go5 bowl game in the same way that you could dip into the athletic budgets of the Go5 schools happy that going 8-4 was good enough to let them go bowling.

I think it requires more than a little naivete to believe that the P5 have been "forced" to "give" the Go5 what it has ... the reality is far more likely to be that the Go5 is getting paid fee for service, and likely not top dollar fee for service either. And if the P5 is getting what they pay for from the Go5, then there is no big hidden pot of gold to be had by breaking away from the Go5, when breaking away with the Go5 and select others would go so far to muddle political backlash to the breakaway.

I don't see the hefty increase in college FB earning potential that would be equivalent to flipping the Big Dance from 20% revenue to the conferences of the participants to 80%, and it would not only have to be equivalent to justify fumbling the BBall side of the breakaway, it would have to be substantially better.

yes there would be issues involved with what I am saying. and you are 100% correct that g5 schools have a fee for services relationship with p5 schools.

my point was that if the p5 schools play 12 of their 14* games against fellow p5 opponents. I would much rather watch their 4-10 teams play each other in bowls over todays model of g5 vs g5 with 8-4 records.

* In this scenario the p5 moves to 14 regular season games to give each team 7 home games a year