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CyberBull Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

Don't forget Penn State where the University and football program was nothing until Paterno got there.
05-22-2014 06:06 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 05:57 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:05 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  I agree with the plutocracy piece. At least someone is said something, I loved Tulanes Scott Cowen came out blasting the BCS over a decade ago.

Actually that was the beginning of the end. It started the short term period that increasingly gave greater access to the non-BCS conferences. People like Roy Kramer and Tom Delany 'warned' everyone that they weren't going to sit back and give away even more access and money to conferences that had nothing to do with building college football into the multi-billion dollar business that the power conferences had developed over the last 60 years.

Most people laughed....but I guess they got the last laugh as they not only pulled back all the gains the non-BCS conferences had obtained but had the perfect opportunity to absorb the old BigEast and keep more money for themselves. This screwed the left over BigEast teams but also all the new AAC teams b/c they don't have now don't have a 6th BCS power conference to join.

Similarly, there were a lot of coaches who weren't crazy about playoffs b/c they knew that it would allow the bigger conferences the opportunity they need to completely take over college football and eliminate the smaller conferences. More over, this is why the initial foray into playoffs was only four teams. Slive and Delany understood that if they pushed for 8 or 16 teams there would be forced to give an automatic slot to non-BCS schools which would 'legitimize' the smaller schools and give them claim to the big dollars the playoffs will draw. IMO, once enough time passes and the G5 schools are completely marginalized to Division I-AA status the playoffs will expand to 8 to 16 teams. The power brokers played this game perfectly and they got their initial motivation due to good ol Scott Cowen.

Not really seeing that. The access for the non-AQ has increased every time the BCS has changed. I went from no access. Then it went to guaranteed access under certain defined conditions. Then it went to guaranteed "AQ" style access. In fact, the G5, taken as a whole, is being effectively treated as a 65 team AQ conference with the selection committee deciding its champion.

For a shot at the championship game, this version of the BCS requires a G5 school to be ranked 4 or better. The old version required #2 or #1. This version of the BCS actually allowed the market to determine who was AQ. If you could sell your champ to a bowl for 40 million---you got to have a "contract game". No G5 was able to pull that off alone.

In fact, that inability to sign a contract game or the way the bowl ties panned out tells you that we are better off with the current system. Not one single high level bowl was interested in pitting a G5 champ against a top P5 selection. So, without the guarantee of the CFP G5 slot---no team in any G5 conference would ever have an opportunity to play in a decent bowl unless they made the playoff.
05-22-2014 06:12 PM
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CyberBull Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 06:12 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:57 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:05 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  I agree with the plutocracy piece. At least someone is said something, I loved Tulanes Scott Cowen came out blasting the BCS over a decade ago.

Actually that was the beginning of the end. It started the short term period that increasingly gave greater access to the non-BCS conferences. People like Roy Kramer and Tom Delany 'warned' everyone that they weren't going to sit back and give away even more access and money to conferences that had nothing to do with building college football into the multi-billion dollar business that the power conferences had developed over the last 60 years.

Most people laughed....but I guess they got the last laugh as they not only pulled back all the gains the non-BCS conferences had obtained but had the perfect opportunity to absorb the old BigEast and keep more money for themselves. This screwed the left over BigEast teams but also all the new AAC teams b/c they don't have now don't have a 6th BCS power conference to join.

Similarly, there were a lot of coaches who weren't crazy about playoffs b/c they knew that it would allow the bigger conferences the opportunity they need to completely take over college football and eliminate the smaller conferences. More over, this is why the initial foray into playoffs was only four teams. Slive and Delany understood that if they pushed for 8 or 16 teams there would be forced to give an automatic slot to non-BCS schools which would 'legitimize' the smaller schools and give them claim to the big dollars the playoffs will draw. IMO, once enough time passes and the G5 schools are completely marginalized to Division I-AA status the playoffs will expand to 8 to 16 teams. The power brokers played this game perfectly and they got their initial motivation due to good ol Scott Cowen.

Not really seeing that. The access for the non-AQ has increased every time the BCS has changed.

Correct, but the last change where the old BCS system was killed....we now have no access. Do you really think we will get a fair shake at 4-team playoff spot? The old system was better when the original P4 had a much better chance at meaningful post season play. Today....that is gone b/c the access games will eventually turn into playoff game match up...effectively ending the college football bowl era...as we know it.

BTW, I don't necessarily approve or agree of what Kramer\Slive\Delany have done...but they didn't make an empty threat that they weren't going to give away what their conferences had built. IMO, comparing what the G4/G5 conference had just three years ago to the type of access we have now it's clear that we have taken a huge step backward....and it may unfortunately be a death knell to our bigtime football aspirations.
05-22-2014 06:24 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #64
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 06:06 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

Don't forget Penn State where the University and football program was nothing until Paterno got there.

Actually, Penn State had 26 straight winning seasons from 1939 - 1964, and went to a few bowl games at a time when it was hard for an indy to do that. They had a proud football program before JP took over.
05-22-2014 10:07 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 06:12 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:57 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:05 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  I agree with the plutocracy piece. At least someone is said something, I loved Tulanes Scott Cowen came out blasting the BCS over a decade ago.

Actually that was the beginning of the end. It started the short term period that increasingly gave greater access to the non-BCS conferences. People like Roy Kramer and Tom Delany 'warned' everyone that they weren't going to sit back and give away even more access and money to conferences that had nothing to do with building college football into the multi-billion dollar business that the power conferences had developed over the last 60 years.

Most people laughed....but I guess they got the last laugh as they not only pulled back all the gains the non-BCS conferences had obtained but had the perfect opportunity to absorb the old BigEast and keep more money for themselves. This screwed the left over BigEast teams but also all the new AAC teams b/c they don't have now don't have a 6th BCS power conference to join.

Similarly, there were a lot of coaches who weren't crazy about playoffs b/c they knew that it would allow the bigger conferences the opportunity they need to completely take over college football and eliminate the smaller conferences. More over, this is why the initial foray into playoffs was only four teams. Slive and Delany understood that if they pushed for 8 or 16 teams there would be forced to give an automatic slot to non-BCS schools which would 'legitimize' the smaller schools and give them claim to the big dollars the playoffs will draw. IMO, once enough time passes and the G5 schools are completely marginalized to Division I-AA status the playoffs will expand to 8 to 16 teams. The power brokers played this game perfectly and they got their initial motivation due to good ol Scott Cowen.

Not really seeing that. The access for the non-AQ has increased every time the BCS has changed.

Yes, which is why it is silly to say that these new developments have "killed college football" and the like, as if schools like UCF and Tulsa have a long history of making big money and had plenty of access to big bowl games but have only recently been robbed via the BCS by the P5. Truth is, the small fry have never, in the entire 120+ years of college football, had it as good as they have it now and the past 15 years.
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2014 10:10 PM by quo vadis.)
05-22-2014 10:09 PM
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shere khan Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 02:45 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  Variety is the spice of life. At what point do even casual football fans get bored with seeing this title game every year - SEC team X vs. Ohio St/Oregon/Wisconsin/Texas/FSU/Oklahoma/Michigan/USC.

If history is any guide, never. Because really for the past 60 years, those 15-25 teams you are thinking of have totally dominated winning the titles. You have to go back to the 1950s and before, when schools like Army and the occasional Ivy schoolwere powers, to see a markedly different cast of characters.

In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

and all three cheated heavily crack into the elite. charlie pell, howard schenellenberger and even saint bobby. prior to them, all three florida schools were turrible. the one constant in college football is that cheating pays.

look at all the coaches from the bear bryant (considered by many the greatest college coach ever) coaching tree that put a team on probation for cheating.

charlie pell
howard schnellenberger
pat dye
danny ford
jackie sherrill
gene stallings
mike dubose
richard williamson
jerry claiborne

who am i forgetting

paterno and penn state are to disgusting to even discuss
(This post was last modified: 05-22-2014 11:18 PM by shere khan.)
05-22-2014 11:11 PM
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Post: #67
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 11:11 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 02:45 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  Variety is the spice of life. At what point do even casual football fans get bored with seeing this title game every year - SEC team X vs. Ohio St/Oregon/Wisconsin/Texas/FSU/Oklahoma/Michigan/USC.

If history is any guide, never. Because really for the past 60 years, those 15-25 teams you are thinking of have totally dominated winning the titles. You have to go back to the 1950s and before, when schools like Army and the occasional Ivy schoolwere powers, to see a markedly different cast of characters.

In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

and all three cheated heavily crack into the elite. charlie pell, howard schenellenberger and even saint bobby. prior to them, all three florida schools were turrible. the one constant in college football is that cheating pays.

look at all the coaches from the bear bryant (considered by many the greatest college coach ever) coaching tree that put a team on probation for cheating.

Funny you mention Bear, because it was he who said in the early 70s that if the schools down in Florida ever got their act together, they could dominate college football.
05-23-2014 05:49 AM
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Post: #68
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 10:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Truth is, the small fry have never, in the entire 120+ years of college football, had it as good as they have it now and the past 15 years.

True...football programs like:
Indiana
Rutgers
Maryland
Wake Forest
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern
Oregon State
Washington State
Texas Tech
Ole Miss
Duke
NC State
Kansas
Iowa State
Purdue
Vanderbilt
Miss State
Kentucky
Cal
Colorado

and many others, have never had it so good...as they all gets a check for approx $20 Million each and every year for doing basically "nothing".

These bottom feeder small frys have never had it so good.
05-23-2014 07:34 AM
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Post: #69
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 10:07 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 06:06 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

Don't forget Penn State where the University and football program was nothing until Paterno got there.

Actually, Penn State had 26 straight winning seasons from 1939 - 1964, and went to a few bowl games at a time when it was hard for an indy to do that. They had a proud football program before JP took over.

That is true....but they didn't became a true national power and blue blood type of program until Joe Paterno. Love or hate the guy, but he was the most transformative figure in Penn State University's history.
05-23-2014 07:41 AM
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Post: #70
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-23-2014 07:34 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 10:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Truth is, the small fry have never, in the entire 120+ years of college football, had it as good as they have it now and the past 15 years.

True...football programs like:
Indiana
Rutgers
Maryland
Wake Forest

I didn't say it wasn't also the best times for the big boys, it is. But the fact remains, small fry have never had more access to the big bowls, more money, and more TV exposure, than they have right now.
05-23-2014 07:52 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-22-2014 10:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 06:12 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:57 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:05 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  I agree with the plutocracy piece. At least someone is said something, I loved Tulanes Scott Cowen came out blasting the BCS over a decade ago.

Actually that was the beginning of the end. It started the short term period that increasingly gave greater access to the non-BCS conferences. People like Roy Kramer and Tom Delany 'warned' everyone that they weren't going to sit back and give away even more access and money to conferences that had nothing to do with building college football into the multi-billion dollar business that the power conferences had developed over the last 60 years.

Most people laughed....but I guess they got the last laugh as they not only pulled back all the gains the non-BCS conferences had obtained but had the perfect opportunity to absorb the old BigEast and keep more money for themselves. This screwed the left over BigEast teams but also all the new AAC teams b/c they don't have now don't have a 6th BCS power conference to join.

Similarly, there were a lot of coaches who weren't crazy about playoffs b/c they knew that it would allow the bigger conferences the opportunity they need to completely take over college football and eliminate the smaller conferences. More over, this is why the initial foray into playoffs was only four teams. Slive and Delany understood that if they pushed for 8 or 16 teams there would be forced to give an automatic slot to non-BCS schools which would 'legitimize' the smaller schools and give them claim to the big dollars the playoffs will draw. IMO, once enough time passes and the G5 schools are completely marginalized to Division I-AA status the playoffs will expand to 8 to 16 teams. The power brokers played this game perfectly and they got their initial motivation due to good ol Scott Cowen.

Not really seeing that. The access for the non-AQ has increased every time the BCS has changed.

Yes, which is why it is silly to say that these new developments have "killed college football" and the like, as if schools like UCF and Tulsa have a long history of making big money and had plenty of access to big bowl games but have only recently been robbed via the BCS by the P5. Truth is, the small fry have never, in the entire 120+ years of college football, had it as good as they have it now and the past 15 years.

Look the bottom line is that the increased access the 'small fry' schools had during the BCS era is now gone. I can't see any G5 school making the playoffs. So the question is whether the alleged 'small fry' schools cut their own throats by pushing the envelope too far to get more access?

Again, I don't agree with the whole system..which is fundamentally corrupt....but would G5 teams be better off under BCS system of a 5 years ago? At least back then, if you made a BCS game G5 teams got to play at the highest level possible...and in the case of WVU or UL who if they wouldn't have choked could have played for National championships. Today the best we can do is play in a glorified, made for TV access bowl game where we no longer even have an automatic bid.

BTW, the P5 are killing college football b/c it's marginalizing half the fanbase that would weekly watch their alma mater along with the marquee match ups of the week. As the G5 get cast into midmajor hell...you will see a huge dropoff in fan interest in college football as a product. Quite simply fans don't like to be told you and your alma mater don't matter.
05-23-2014 07:52 AM
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Post: #72
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-23-2014 07:41 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 10:07 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 06:06 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  In the past 50 years, the only schools to really crack the elite level are the three Florida schools - Miami, FSU, UF. Other than that, it's been the same crew my entire life, and yet fans have always lapped it up anyway.

Don't forget Penn State where the University and football program was nothing until Paterno got there.

Actually, Penn State had 26 straight winning seasons from 1939 - 1964, and went to a few bowl games at a time when it was hard for an indy to do that. They had a proud football program before JP took over.

That is true....but they didn't became a true national power and blue blood type of program until Joe Paterno. Love or hate the guy, but he was the most transformative figure in Penn State University's history.

No question, JP took Penn State to a quantum-level higher than they'd ever been. I was just objecting to the claim that PSU was "nothing" before he arrived. They weren't nothing.
05-23-2014 07:55 AM
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Post: #73
RE: Boise State president blasts NCAA reform in letter to media
(05-23-2014 07:52 AM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 10:09 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 06:12 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 05:57 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:05 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  I agree with the plutocracy piece. At least someone is said something, I loved Tulanes Scott Cowen came out blasting the BCS over a decade ago.

Actually that was the beginning of the end. It started the short term period that increasingly gave greater access to the non-BCS conferences. People like Roy Kramer and Tom Delany 'warned' everyone that they weren't going to sit back and give away even more access and money to conferences that had nothing to do with building college football into the multi-billion dollar business that the power conferences had developed over the last 60 years.

Most people laughed....but I guess they got the last laugh as they not only pulled back all the gains the non-BCS conferences had obtained but had the perfect opportunity to absorb the old BigEast and keep more money for themselves. This screwed the left over BigEast teams but also all the new AAC teams b/c they don't have now don't have a 6th BCS power conference to join.

Similarly, there were a lot of coaches who weren't crazy about playoffs b/c they knew that it would allow the bigger conferences the opportunity they need to completely take over college football and eliminate the smaller conferences. More over, this is why the initial foray into playoffs was only four teams. Slive and Delany understood that if they pushed for 8 or 16 teams there would be forced to give an automatic slot to non-BCS schools which would 'legitimize' the smaller schools and give them claim to the big dollars the playoffs will draw. IMO, once enough time passes and the G5 schools are completely marginalized to Division I-AA status the playoffs will expand to 8 to 16 teams. The power brokers played this game perfectly and they got their initial motivation due to good ol Scott Cowen.

Not really seeing that. The access for the non-AQ has increased every time the BCS has changed.

Yes, which is why it is silly to say that these new developments have "killed college football" and the like, as if schools like UCF and Tulsa have a long history of making big money and had plenty of access to big bowl games but have only recently been robbed via the BCS by the P5. Truth is, the small fry have never, in the entire 120+ years of college football, had it as good as they have it now and the past 15 years.

Look the bottom line is that the increased access the 'small fry' schools had during the BCS era is now gone. I can't see any G5 school making the playoffs. So the question is whether the alleged 'small fry' schools cut their own throats by pushing the envelope too far to get more access?

That is not the bottom line. In the current BCS system, there are only two playoff spots whereas in the new CFP there are four, so while G5 chances of making the playoffs are still very bad, they are marginally better, not worse, than under the BCS.

Also, in the BCS, the G5 had one 'guaranteed' BCS spot, BUT only if a G5 school was ranked in the top 12 or the top 16 and ahead of the champion of an AQ conference. In other words, a conditional guarantee, which is not a real guarantee at all.

In this new CFP system, the G5 do in fact have a real guaranteed spot in a BCS bowl. The top G5 champion can be completely out of the regular rankings, but they will still get a BCS bowl slot, no matter what. So again, that represents improvement over the BCS.
(This post was last modified: 05-23-2014 08:02 AM by quo vadis.)
05-23-2014 08:02 AM
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