(05-23-2014 03:22 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  Now given the obvious need for an education, and the 'moth to a light' reaction of young people to a university with a high profile athletic program. Does a government not have a responsibility to protect its investment from collusion by those who are entrusted with the public funds.

If yes, then do any of these apply to the P5:

I.) exclusive dealing agreements
II.) tying arrangements (e.g. bowl to t.v. to advertising etc. at the exclusion of others)
III.) mergers and acquisitions that substantially reduce market competition.

Again, if any of these do apply to what the P5 commissioners are doing, then they are running afoul of the Clayton Act (further expanded the scope of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act).

Can it not be argued, as far as our modern culture is concerned, that today's P5 commissioners are creating agreements which unreasonably restrain competition? As all schools are competing for students is it not imperative that Congress, through its commerce power, suppress and penalize those which have as their primary purpose the limitation of competition?

"Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce....is declared to be illegal [and shall be deemed guilty of a felony]."

Interpretation of law must evolve as society evolves (i.e. no one really cares about railroads any more, however, the fight for the heart and mind of the college bound has never been keener).

This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

(05-23-2014 04:44 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for the what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

I'm saying that without big time football, a lot of P5 schools would be smaller. It's helped them out immensely over the last century.

(05-22-2014 04:25 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  That is incorect.

What I would like to see (and this is just one man's opinion) is minimum standards for inclusion to the top-level of college football, and the opportunity to meet or exceed those standards for any school that so chooses to make that risky investment. Make the number whatever you want it to be, but you can't have Wake Forest playing at one level, and UConn playing at a lower level, when UConn beats Wake by every measurable imaginable.

This point got lost in a debate over the specific examples used (seriously though, UConn >>> Wake by every measurable imaginable, and Wake isn't the only Cartel member with that status) but I endorse it heartily. Of course it won't happen, the last thing the Cartel wants is an objective way to get into the club (they wouldn't be a Cartel if they liked such things.)

(05-23-2014 06:30 PM)justinslot Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:25 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  That is incorect.

What I would like to see (and this is just one man's opinion) is minimum standards for inclusion to the top-level of college football, and the opportunity to meet or exceed those standards for any school that so chooses to make that risky investment. Make the number whatever you want it to be, but you can't have Wake Forest playing at one level, and UConn playing at a lower level, when UConn beats Wake by every measurable imaginable.

This point got lost in a debate over the specific examples used (seriously though, UConn >>> Wake by every measurable imaginable, and Wake isn't the only Cartel member with that status) but I endorse it heartily. Of course it won't happen, the last thing the Cartel wants is an objective way to get into the club (they wouldn't be a Cartel if they liked such things.)

Thanks.

(05-23-2014 06:53 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 06:30 PM)justinslot Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:25 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  That is incorect.

What I would like to see (and this is just one man's opinion) is minimum standards for inclusion to the top-level of college football, and the opportunity to meet or exceed those standards for any school that so chooses to make that risky investment. Make the number whatever you want it to be, but you can't have Wake Forest playing at one level, and UConn playing at a lower level, when UConn beats Wake by every measurable imaginable.

This point got lost in a debate over the specific examples used (seriously though, UConn >>> Wake by every measurable imaginable, and Wake isn't the only Cartel member with that status) but I endorse it heartily. Of course it won't happen, the last thing the Cartel wants is an objective way to get into the club (they wouldn't be a Cartel if they liked such things.)

Thanks.

I was actually thinking--and forgive me if this is offensive--that SMU and TCU would be good examples of what you're getting at. Two very similar schools on opposite sides of the line for fairly arbitrary reasons.

(05-22-2014 08:03 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 07:47 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:55 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:20 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:17 PM)john01992 Wrote:  and that's the key issue here.

g5 fans think as long as they are better than 1 p5 school they should be in. the reality of the situation is that you have to be at the very least lower-middle to middle tier to get an invite not bottom tier.

Oh no. We understand that much better than you think. Its the lower third of the P5 that doesn't get it. Really, I think the real point is that the top third of the P5 IS the P5. Put most of the decent G5 schools in a major conference, and within 10 years--they would be just as competitive as the vast majority of the conference. Only the programs like Texas, Alabama, Michigan, Ohio St, USC, etc. are really "power programs". The rest are just bulked up G5 programs.

id say 1/3rd is way way to low. id say 4/5 belong in the p5.

I get that you are a UH fan, but please try to think rationally on this one.

Your misunderstanding my point. Im not saying any P5 programs don't belong. Im saying that many G5's, give the same leg up, would look just like them. In other words, put a G5 in place of a current random P5, and in 10 years you probably couldn't tell the difference. My point is the real punch in the P5 is the top 10-15 P5 anchor programs. They are irreplaceable. The rest are not.

UH could compete, but they wouldn't "look like" most other G5 schools. They would still be drawing 10-15k less in football than the Iowa States and Mississippi States (Washington St. and Wake-maybe they look like them). Long run that would relegate them towards the bottom most years. In the SWC, they were the 2nd biggest school and probably had the 2nd largest alumni base. They had 3 to 4 times the students of the 4 privates. The Pac 12, Big 12 or SEC would be much more challenging for them.

And Houston is near the top of the G5 in potential. There are only a handful who would do better.

Houston conundrum it's in a NFL town, it must find away to get fans to come to the games not only when they are making noise nationally, but all the time as a source of high end low cost sports entertainment to the football consuming public. Houston in its hey day reached a peak of 45.5k per game in the late 70's, assuming the trend continued (which it did not) would be in today's attendance numbers would be about 68.5k based on a conservative 1.5 percent attendance increase per year x 36 years would which is close to the present day seating capacity of the Houston Texans stadium of 72k. Houston is going to have to figure it out which they are trying to do hopefully we can fill the new 40k stadium for all the games which would be a good indicator of future things. Another thing, who your opponents are, it does matter. People in these parts are B12 and now fast becoming SEC fans. Real unfortunate for UH did not get the votes to get the invite into the SEC back in the 60's when it looked like they had them at the time, loss the votes because they became a integrated team which made it a outlier school back in the day to the SEC. Things would be much different.

(05-23-2014 04:44 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

to follow the Ohio State example- There are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio, only the state of Texas has more. But of those 8 FBS programs there's only 1 that gets a portion of 70% of the TV revenue designate for FBS. The other 7 FBS schools are stuck with a portion of just 27% of that revenue. Those 7 schools are all within 150 mile radius of OSU's campus.

Don't you think the 7th most populated stated in the Union, and one with a rabid football culture, could handle supporting more than 1 "big time" college football program? OSU has worked very hard to make sure that no other school in the state gets a chance to give them a run for their money. If Cinci or Toledo, or Cinci AND Toledo joined the P5 it wouldn't stop OSU from being OSU, but they want to make sure nobody else gets a chance.

I hope Congress gets involved.

(05-23-2014 11:39 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:44 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

to follow the Ohio State example- There are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio, only the state of Texas has more. But of those 8 FBS programs there's only 1 that gets a portion of 70% of the TV revenue designate for FBS. The other 7 FBS schools are stuck with a portion of just 27% of that revenue. Those 7 schools are all within 150 mile radius of OSU's campus.

Don't you think the 7th most populated stated in the Union, and one with a rabid football culture, could handle supporting more than 1 "big time" college football program? OSU has worked very hard to make sure that no other school in the state gets a chance to give them a run for their money. If Cinci or Toledo, or Cinci AND Toledo joined the P5 it wouldn't stop OSU from being OSU, but they want to make sure nobody else gets a chance.

I hope Congress gets involved.

Let's be honest though: how many of those schools have ever had a shot at being a P5 school? It's not like these schools had the money to support big time athletic in the first place. The only one I can think of was already a BCS school. Also, do the rest deserve more? If Ohio State is generating 70% of the football revenue in Ohio, why do the rest deserve more of that share?

(05-24-2014 02:18 AM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 11:39 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:44 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

to follow the Ohio State example- There are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio, only the state of Texas has more. But of those 8 FBS programs there's only 1 that gets a portion of 70% of the TV revenue designate for FBS. The other 7 FBS schools are stuck with a portion of just 27% of that revenue. Those 7 schools are all within 150 mile radius of OSU's campus.

Don't you think the 7th most populated stated in the Union, and one with a rabid football culture, could handle supporting more than 1 "big time" college football program? OSU has worked very hard to make sure that no other school in the state gets a chance to give them a run for their money. If Cinci or Toledo, or Cinci AND Toledo joined the P5 it wouldn't stop OSU from being OSU, but they want to make sure nobody else gets a chance.

I hope Congress gets involved.

Let's be honest though: how many of those schools have ever had a shot at being a P5 school? It's not like these schools had the money to support big time athletic in the first place. The only one I can think of was already a BCS school. Also, do the rest deserve more? If Ohio State is generating 70% of the football revenue in Ohio, why do the rest deserve more of that share?

Do the rest deserve more? Why wouldn't they deserve a fair shot for more?

Look at Miami- their football program is ranked 20th in FBS in career winning %, they're know as the cradle of coaches, they've finished in the top 10 as recent as 2003. Their men's bball program has 17 NCAA appearances, more than 4 B1G schools, have a Sweet 16 appearance as recent as 1999. As an academic institution they are one of the oldest public universities in the country founded in 1809, 60+ years before Ohio State. They have a strong academic reputation, known as a public Ivy, ranked in the most recent USNWR at #75. And I'm not pimping Miami, I hate Miami, but what part of that bio says they aren't worthy of being on the same level as a West Virginia or Texas Tech?

Ohio State will always be the 900lb gorilla, no one can take that away from them, but that doesn't mean they should be the only game in town, now and forever. Schools like Miami, Cincinnati, Toledo and Ohio have a lot to offer too. And if these are all taxpayer funded schools wouldn't it benefit the taxpayers if more universities were given the opportunity to achieve and grow?

As for the other Ohio schools not having the money for big time athletics- well of course not, they've been shut out from earning the money needed to grow, that's the whole point to this!

(05-24-2014 03:45 AM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(05-24-2014 02:18 AM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 11:39 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:44 PM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(05-23-2014 04:10 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  This is an interesting thought.

What would the college landscape look like if the big time football never existed? Would Ohio State still have 60,000 students and a billions of dollars in their endowment? What about big time schools in rural areas?

Not sure what you're getting at here. There were railroads before and after the Sherman Antitrust Act. There were oil companies before and after Standard Oil was split into 34 companies. And there are many telephone companies after Ma Bell was broken up. All these cartels were broken up for what proved to be the better. Can anyone argue that the P5 is not a Cartel?

to follow the Ohio State example- There are 8 FBS programs in the state of Ohio, only the state of Texas has more. But of those 8 FBS programs there's only 1 that gets a portion of 70% of the TV revenue designate for FBS. The other 7 FBS schools are stuck with a portion of just 27% of that revenue. Those 7 schools are all within 150 mile radius of OSU's campus.

Don't you think the 7th most populated stated in the Union, and one with a rabid football culture, could handle supporting more than 1 "big time" college football program? OSU has worked very hard to make sure that no other school in the state gets a chance to give them a run for their money. If Cinci or Toledo, or Cinci AND Toledo joined the P5 it wouldn't stop OSU from being OSU, but they want to make sure nobody else gets a chance.

I hope Congress gets involved.

Let's be honest though: how many of those schools have ever had a shot at being a P5 school? It's not like these schools had the money to support big time athletic in the first place. The only one I can think of was already a BCS school. Also, do the rest deserve more? If Ohio State is generating 70% of the football revenue in Ohio, why do the rest deserve more of that share?

Do the rest deserve more? Why wouldn't they deserve a fair shot for more?

Look at Miami- their football program is ranked 20th in FBS in career winning %, they're know as the cradle of coaches, they've finished in the top 10 as recent as 2003. Their men's bball program has 17 NCAA appearances, more than 4 B1G schools, have a Sweet 16 appearance as recent as 1999. As an academic institution they are one of the oldest public universities in the country founded in 1809, 60+ years before Ohio State. They have a strong academic reputation, known as a public Ivy, ranked in the most recent USNWR at #75. And I'm not pimping Miami, I hate Miami, but what part of that bio says they aren't worthy of being on the same level as a West Virginia or Texas Tech?

Ohio State will always be the 900lb gorilla, no one can take that away from them, but that doesn't mean they should be the only game in town, now and forever. Schools like Miami, Cincinnati, Toledo and Ohio have a lot to offer too. And if these are all taxpayer funded schools wouldn't it benefit the taxpayers if more universities were given the opportunity to achieve and grow?

As for the other Ohio schools not having the money for big time athletics- well of course not, they've been shut out from earning the money needed to grow, that's the whole point to this!

I guess that's where our opinion differs: you see them as small because they we're shut out, I see them as small because they were never generating much revenue anyways. Schools with earning potential often end up being invited into P5 conferences.


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(05-23-2014 04:46 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  I'm saying that without big time football, a lot of P5 schools would be smaller. It's helped them out immensely over the last century.

I agree and am fine with their ability to grow. My issue is with them now trying to limit others from using the same model.

(05-22-2014 07:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:34 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What you are suggesting is that the Milwaukee Brewers aren't in the same league as the New York Yankees. They absolutely are.

If the Yankees are Ohio State, then the Brewers are Purdue. Not Ball State.

I guess it's not "fair" that the American Football League got to merge with the NFL and the Canadian Football League didn't. But the mere fact of that unfairness doesn't mean that the B.C. Lions and the Ottawa Rough Riders are NFL franchises.

Yet another terrible analogy. Canadian football is a completely different sport with a different league, whereas the P5 and G5 play the same sport in the same league.

The Oregon/Boise State rivalry is intense.

Kustra needs to stop running his yap and pay up what they owe the AAC....

(05-26-2014 07:13 AM)Bearcats#1 Wrote:  Kustra needs to stop running his yap and pay up what they owe the AAC....

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^