Thoughts?

honestly I think the conference would be better served bridging the wvu gap by going after ucf/usf and give wvu better recruiting access rather than 1 closer travel partner each year

adding cincy/memphis just creates more outliers IMO

There is no real need.

I've always thought that in the days of chartered jets that take sports teams to events, that we are talking about "bridge building" like it means anything. Gone are the days of true regional conferences where fans could drive a maximum of 6-8 hours, and support their team. TV and TV money did that to college football.

Adding Cincy and Memphis to the Big12 will change nothing, from WVU's perspective. They'll still be an outlier, but once again, that is more cultural than geographical. WVU belongs in the ACC but it won't happen because the current administration at the NCAA, and the P5 conferences, fancy themselves smarter than the average bear, and force a proverbial square peg into a round hole and expect it to work.

Whoever the Big12 does add, it will be because they add TV money value, and not because they "build a bridge" to WVU. Money, money, money, money.....

Cincy is the only viable "bridge" addition if you worry about that.

The Florida twins, Memphis, Tulane, etc dont help WV with travel.

(05-15-2014 10:00 PM)S11 Wrote:  Cincy is the only viable "bridge" addition if you worry about that.

The Florida twins, Memphis, Tulane, etc dont help WV with travel.

I think my earlier point was that travel is travel, regardless of who their conference mates are. Whether it's a 3 hour flight, or a 1.5 hour flight, it's all the same. It's a moot argument.

But I agree that Cincy is a viable option, for various reasons. I also think UCF is a hot commodity for some of the same reasons, but more for its potential.

I'll copy the 2014 "league ladder" I drew up for the American in another thread by averaging the FB and BBall rankings of the American schools.

First, the Big12 on combined FB&BBall ranking (this is Sagarin for convenience, but if you have rankings you prefer for FB and/or BBall, feel free to substitute), which splits into three tiers and TCU (TCU BBall experiencing a massive shock, though it performed reasonably well in FB):

15. Baylor
18.5. Li'l Okie
22. Okie
-----
34. Kansas St.
38. UTexas
** Median = 41 **
44. Iowa State
-----
60. Texas Tech
66.5. Kansas
69.5. WVU
-----
115. TCU

And then the American, which suggests that UC on this last season's performance would slot into the middle tier, UConn, SMU & Memphis into the bottom tier, and anyone else would slot in below WVU.

45. UC
-----
63.5 UConn
66. SMU
71. Memphis
-----
89.5. Houston
92.5. UCF ** Median **
104.+ Tulsa
-----
136.5. Temple
147.+ ECU
169.5. USF
177.+ Tulane

{+. Note: In CUSA play.}

From a sports economics economics perspective, neither UC nor Memphis would appear to move the needle as far as media value goes, and there is the added issue that media value below the main broadcast network and cable network contracts are left to the individual schools in the Big12, so for impact on residual values, there are actually ten different needles that may or may not move for any given candidate.

The BYU TV contract makes them an add to consider on market grounds. If they are a #11, then UC and Memphis are alternatives rather than a combination, and as alternatives, UC seems to have a stronger case and also makes a much better travel partner with WVU for Olympic sports.

(05-15-2014 10:04 PM)Knightsweat Wrote:  I think my earlier point was that travel is travel, regardless of who their conference mates are. Whether it's a 3 hour flight, or a 1.5 hour flight, it's all the same. It's a moot argument.

But for Olympic sports that can play two opponents in a single trip, a flight out, a game, a bus trip to the travel partner, a game there and a flight back, typically spread across a weekend, a late week game and a weekend, or a weekend and an early week game, is 2 flights for two games rather than 3-4 flights for two games. The Big12 may not sponsor as many Olympic sports as the Big Ten or Pac-12, but it sponsors six team sports other than FB, and there's an associated travel cost with each of those programs at each school that sponsors them.

Those costs are not disabling for programs with Big12 level budgets, but the travel partner system is a time-tested approach to both saving money on all-sports travel and reducing the pressures that travel places on athlete-students.

If you really have to think before answering this question, then you need to watch this before answering.





Show me the money.

If the current Big 12 schools can make significantly more money per school by expanding, they will. If expansion won't make more money for each and every one of them, they won't do it.

The Big 12 is fine at 10 ty.

(05-15-2014 10:09 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If the current Big 12 schools can make significantly more money per school by expanding, they will. If expansion won't make more money for each and every one of them, they won't do it.

BYU is the only school that might move that needle (and that's not guaranteed, especially given residual rights left with the individual schools in the Big12).

If they move the needle enough to justify expansion, then the #12 just needs to add enough so that the value of the pair still adds up to an increase.

For any other pairing, the easy answer is for the Big12 to wait and see if any of them see a growth in their media value over time.

(05-15-2014 10:04 PM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 10:00 PM)S11 Wrote:  Cincy is the only viable "bridge" addition if you worry about that.

The Florida twins, Memphis, Tulane, etc dont help WV with travel.

I think my earlier point was that travel is travel, regardless of who their conference mates are. Whether it's a 3 hour flight, or a 1.5 hour flight, it's all the same. It's a moot argument.

But I agree that Cincy is a viable option, for various reasons. I also think UCF is a hot commodity for some of the same reasons, but more for its potential.

I was talking about teams that are both viable and close enough to be cost saving bus trips in minor sports and when that 9 game schedule sticks wv with 4 league home games provides a driveable road game in league play.

UCF, BYU, and others are similarly viable overall but don't offer the location near WVU.

The B12 is a big boy football conference.

To compete in the B12 you've got to be able to pull your weight in football. Only a few AAC programs can truely do that.

Cincinnati
Houston
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida

This is why I see the B12 looking at UC and Houston instead of UC and Memphis. The weak football tradition of Memphis is too much of a liability IMO for the B12 to take a serious look.

(05-15-2014 11:57 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  This is why I see the B12 looking at UC and Houston instead of UC and Memphis.

They already looked at a fourth Texas school, and went with TCU. So Houston is off the table.

(05-16-2014 12:45 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 11:57 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  This is why I see the B12 looking at UC and Houston instead of UC and Memphis.

They already looked at a fourth Texas school, and went with TCU. So Houston is off the table.

Houston's facilities, location and academics keeps it on the table.

Taking Houston in would be another way of sticking it to TAMU's lock on the Houston recruiting grounds.

I would think that if the Big12 expanded that 4 schools to get Them to 14 like the ACC, B1G and SEC would stabilize that conference for the Future from any case that could have them absorbed into say a P4. 5 conferences of 14 would be the P5. Grab BYU, UC, UCF, and USF. That gives You New large markets to further Build the Brand. Is that an immediate jump in monetary gain for the Big12? No, but it gives a very potent building block for the next 10 years left in the Gore.. next contract could be very good instead of being broken up into other conferences.

(05-16-2014 05:06 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  I would think that if the Big12 expanded that 4 schools to get Them to 14 like the ACC, B1G and SEC would stabilize that conference for the Future from any case that could have them absorbed into say a P4. 5 conferences of 14 would be the P5. Grab BYU, UC, UCF, and USF. That gives You New large markets to further Build the Brand. Is that an immediate jump in monetary gain for the Big12? No, but it gives a very potent building block for the next 10 years left in the Gore.. next contract could be very good instead of being broken up into other conferences.

The B12 needs expanded tv markets to go 12.
UCF and USF as well as BYU give them that.
Cinn and Memphis do not.
BYU wants a ND type deal and the B12 has been there already.
BYU already has a bowl deal with the AAC.They can also get a ND like deal from the AAC without giving up their special tv package.

(05-15-2014 11:57 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The B12 is a big boy football conference.

To compete in the B12 you've got to be able to pull your weight in football. Only a few AAC programs can truely do that.

Cincinnati
Houston
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida

This is why I see the B12 looking at UC and Houston instead of UC and Memphis. The weak football tradition of Memphis is too much of a liability IMO for the B12 to take a serious look.

If they add two teams, they will come from these three, Cincinnati, BYU or East Carolina.

(05-15-2014 10:04 PM)Knightsweat Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 10:00 PM)S11 Wrote:  Cincy is the only viable "bridge" addition if you worry about that.

The Florida twins, Memphis, Tulane, etc dont help WV with travel.

I think my earlier point was that travel is travel, regardless of who their conference mates are. Whether it's a 3 hour flight, or a 1.5 hour flight, it's all the same. It's a moot argument.

But I agree that Cincy is a viable option, for various reasons. I also think UCF is a hot commodity for some of the same reasons, but more for its potential.

I agree. To the extent that "travel partners" is a consideration at all, it's way down the list of criteria that a P5 conference would consider. If they had no other way to break a tie between two candidates, this might come into play.

(05-16-2014 06:50 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  If they add two teams, they will come from these three, Cincinnati, BYU or East Carolina.

If they add two teams in the current decade, that seems like a reasonable list, though its just as reasonable without ECU.

The "Florida option" is more a move for the 20's, if one of the two American Conference Florida teams matures into a strong P5 candidate.