(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

No

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

We spend way too much time preparing for and administering standardized tests.

Honestly if we could separate the testing from the instruction and everyone would just stop trying to micromanage what teachers do there would be a lot more real learning taking place.

(05-15-2014 08:34 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

We spend way too much time preparing for and administering standardized tests.

Honestly if we could separate the testing from the instruction and everyone would just stop trying to micromanage what teachers do there would be a lot more real learning taking place.

Another huge problem - forcing students with significant problems into regular classrooms. Teachers wind up spending an inordinate amount of time just trying to keep everything under control.

(05-15-2014 08:34 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

We spend way too much time preparing for and administering standardized tests.

Honestly if we could separate the testing from the instruction and everyone would just stop trying to micromanage what teachers do there would be a lot more real learning taking place.

Oh sure, of course there would. Because it worked so well before those standardized tests.

Maybe the solutions aren't going to come from low IQ people like dawg here. How about that as a starting poing?

You know, one of the difficulties of comparing 50 years ago and today is that the comparisons really aren't apples to apples. Fifty years ago a good percentage of kids that really didn't want to go to school quit and went to work. It is easier all around for a school to educate when those that hate it and are unsuccessful at it self cut themselves.

I mean, 50 years ago a kid could actually quit - and find a job making enough money to live on. That really isn't the case today along with the fact that we as a society have "delayed" kids entering the world as adults. Way more kids (who don't want to be there) stay in school and generally lowers the overall scores and cause discipline problems.

(05-16-2014 08:09 AM)Crebman Wrote:  You know, one of the difficulties of comparing 50 years ago and today is that the comparisons really aren't apples to apples. Fifty years ago a good percentage of kids that really didn't want to go to school quit and went to work. It is easier all around for a school to educate when those that hate it and are unsuccessful at it self cut themselves.

I mean, 50 years ago a kid could actually quit - and find a job making enough money to live on. That really isn't the case today along

They could. But it would be the middle class lifestyle of 50 years ago, which isn't the luxury seen today.

Many back then joined the military. Nothing wrong w/ that option either.

Quote: with the fact that we as a society have "delayed" kids entering the world as adults.

That's a big problem. And leftists try to make it even worse.

Quote: Way more kids (who don't want to be there) stay in school and generally lowers the overall scores and cause discipline problems.

Great points here.

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

I agree with you 100%. I have this conversation with my history partner all the time. I'm sick and tired of having to spend most of my time and energy with discipline problems and kids who don't want to learn.

Three times a week, I have to spend 30 min. each day tutoring students who generally don't ever do homework and rarely do anything in class. At least one conference period each week, I have to call parents of discipline problems or kids who are failing. That is time I could be spending planning enrichment activities for my students who do well. Instead it gets spend dealing with 5% of the population.

Don't even get me started on all the field trips and dances that get cancelled because of bad behavior from a few.

(05-16-2014 10:51 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

I agree with you 100%. I have this conversation with my history partner all the time. I'm sick and tired of having to spend most of my time and energy with discipline problems and kids who don't want to learn.

Three times a week, I have to spend 30 min. each day tutoring students who generally don't ever do homework and rarely do anything in class. At least one conference period each week, I have to call parents of discipline problems or kids who are failing. That is time I could be spending planning enrichment activities for my students who do well. Instead it gets spend dealing with 5% of the population.

Don't even get me started on all the field trips and dances that get cancelled because of bad behavior from a few.

Are kids still divided up, at least in middle and high schools, into the smart kid classes and the "not so smart kids classes" That's the way it was back in the day so teachers could concentrate on the smart kids more.

In my school we have done away with the tracking honor classes. Now we just teach Biology and you get the whole gamut in one class. It wasn't this way 5 years ago.

(05-15-2014 11:00 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The voucher will NEVER work. They will just raise tuition to keep out the undesirable. A voucher is just a give away. Will not solve a thing.

By all accounts it was working in DC before the program was terminated.

(05-16-2014 10:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(05-16-2014 10:51 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

I agree with you 100%. I have this conversation with my history partner all the time. I'm sick and tired of having to spend most of my time and energy with discipline problems and kids who don't want to learn.

Three times a week, I have to spend 30 min. each day tutoring students who generally don't ever do homework and rarely do anything in class. At least one conference period each week, I have to call parents of discipline problems or kids who are failing. That is time I could be spending planning enrichment activities for my students who do well. Instead it gets spend dealing with 5% of the population.

Don't even get me started on all the field trips and dances that get cancelled because of bad behavior from a few.

Are kids still divided up, at least in middle and high schools, into the smart kid classes and the "not so smart kids classes" That's the way it was back in the day so teachers could concentrate on the smart kids more.

I have one class with all the kids that have been identified as gifted. That class is a dream.

The rest of my classes however are a mixture kids that are anywhere from very smart to kids with learning or health disabilities.

By law, these children with disabilities must be allowed to attend regular classes with regular children. Accommodating can be challenging and time consuming.

I believe they deserve an education just like every other kid but sometimes these kids have issues that I am not qualified to deal with.

(05-16-2014 11:59 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-16-2014 10:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(05-16-2014 10:51 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 08:06 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(05-15-2014 06:29 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I believe that we should expand the school year. Currently students attend school for 185 days. I would add 20 more school days. It should be mandated that there can be no more than 20 school days dedicated to standardized testing, practice tests, and test preparation. That will leave 185 days of classroom teaching. The school year can be spaced out over 11 months with quarterly breaks and a 30 day summer vacation. Teachers would become 11 month rather than 10 month employees and given a salary increase based on the additional month of employment.

IMO, it's not the number of days teaching that is the real problem. If we still spend 80% of the time and effort trying to get the dumbest/ most problems kids to pass the minimum requirements and all but ignore the top half of the student population, we will still get only mediocre results at best.

Face it, the bottom of the student population, those that teachers spend the most time on, will likely be no more than manual laborers at best. These are the kids we've decided to spend our time and treasure on - and people wonder why private schools are popular with those that can swing it?

I agree with you 100%. I have this conversation with my history partner all the time. I'm sick and tired of having to spend most of my time and energy with discipline problems and kids who don't want to learn.

Three times a week, I have to spend 30 min. each day tutoring students who generally don't ever do homework and rarely do anything in class. At least one conference period each week, I have to call parents of discipline problems or kids who are failing. That is time I could be spending planning enrichment activities for my students who do well. Instead it gets spend dealing with 5% of the population.

Don't even get me started on all the field trips and dances that get cancelled because of bad behavior from a few.

Are kids still divided up, at least in middle and high schools, into the smart kid classes and the "not so smart kids classes" That's the way it was back in the day so teachers could concentrate on the smart kids more.

I have one class with all the kids that have been identified as gifted. That class is a dream.

The rest of my classes however are a mixture kids that are anywhere from very smart to kids with learning or health disabilities.

By law, these children with disabilities must be allowed to attend regular classes with regular children. Accommodating can be challenging and time consuming.

I believe they deserve an education just like every other kid but sometimes these kids have issues that I am not qualified to deal with.

Seems that, although not the PC thing to do, it would be best to divide the kids up based on ability. That way the smart kids would get the required attention and the kids that need extra help would also get the needed attention without holding back the smart kids. I remember there being the "AG - Advanced Gifted" group back in school but that was seperate from the normal classes that were divided up between the smart kids and everyone else. The "AG" class met like twice a week or something and was made up of select kids from the "smart" class. This was a public school.

This school year, I started out grouping kids based on their last test score. I put the lowest scores in the front and the best scores in the back.

I figured, the kids that aren't getting it should be up front where I could keep an eye on them.

Group work was even better.

Normally, we are always told to mix low and high performing kids in groups so the high ones can help the low ones.

This never works in practice because the high ones just get frustrated and do all the work themselves.

This time however, I let all the smart kids get in groups. This allowed them to work well together. The low groups had to step up and work knowing there was no smart kid to give them the answers.

I grouped them using playing cards. My best kids were aces and my worst kids were 6's or 7's.

It has helped motivate my kids to work harder while at the same time given my smart kids the freedom to do other things.

The "least restrictive environment" is excellent in theory. In fact it is excellent when applied correctly. The problem is when a student with severe disabilities is placed in the regular setting when they are really much better served elsewhere . In our zeal to be as inclusive as possible students that can't function in the regular setting are placed there. It holds them back academically and decreases classroom productivity. Sometimes the "least restrictive environment" isn't the regular classroom setting but is in fact a self contained or small group classroom.