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Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 03:44 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  There you go again HB. No, I never made the claim that no doctor patient care has suffered since the ACA. I only said that in my experience, I've not seen it. I made no claims without evidence.

Once again, in your need to speak for others, you put words in my mouth yet again.

Okay smart ass...

Show me where I said you claimed no doctor patient care has suffered. QUote me saying that.

I haven't, because I specifically said you admitted it numerous times.

This is a stupid attempt by you to deflect from the fact that you have taken a 'wait and see' or 'too early to tell' attitude towards the ACA, just as you have been instructed by your party.

You're clearly more interested in arguing politics with uninformed people than right or wrong with informed ones.
05-07-2014 03:52 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 03:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 03:44 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  There you go again HB. No, I never made the claim that no doctor patient care has suffered since the ACA. I only said that in my experience, I've not seen it. I made no claims without evidence.

Once again, in your need to speak for others, you put words in my mouth yet again.

Okay smart ass...

Show me where I said you claimed no doctor patient care has suffered. Quote me saying that.

I haven't, because I specifically said you admitted it numerous times.

This is a stupid attempt by you to deflect from the fact that you have taken a 'wait and see' or 'too early to tell' attitude towards the ACA, just as you have been instructed by your party.

You're clearly more interested in arguing politics with uninformed people than right or wrong with informed ones.

bull****!

Hambone10 Wrote:You have similarly made a claim with no evidence.

His claim, with no source, was that doctor-patient care had suffered so far under the ACA. You said I made a similar claim...I assume to the contrary. I didn't.
05-07-2014 03:55 PM
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LSU04_08 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 03:52 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 03:44 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  There you go again HB. No, I never made the claim that no doctor patient care has suffered since the ACA. I only said that in my experience, I've not seen it. I made no claims without evidence.

Once again, in your need to speak for others, you put words in my mouth yet again.

Okay smart ass...

Show me where I said you claimed no doctor patient care has suffered. Quote me saying that.

I haven't, because I specifically said you admitted it numerous times.

This is a stupid attempt by you to deflect from the fact that you have taken a 'wait and see' or 'too early to tell' attitude towards the ACA, just as you have been instructed by your party.

You're clearly more interested in arguing politics with uninformed people than right or wrong with informed ones.

bull****!


Settle down, tinker.
05-07-2014 03:57 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 03:55 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  bull****!

Hambone10 Wrote:You have similarly made a claim with no evidence.

His claim, with no source, was that doctor-patient care had suffered so far under the ACA. You said I made a similar claim...I assume to the contrary. I didn't.

English, buddy. I said you have similarly made a claim with no evidence.... not that you've made a similar claim.

You said

If you can't find one, I get all that. But isn't that because we don't really know yet?

No. You don't have any evidence that we don't really know yet... you merely reject the evidence that we DO know.

We know because you admit that it isn't helping and it was designed to help. I pointed out that it can't increase the supply of healthcare because it isn't designed to and without increasing supply, while increasing demand and decreasing reimbursement, quality must by definition decline. It's already happening and clearly articulated in the articles about DMC. We don't need to 'wait and see' if turning off a plane's engine mid-flight actually makes it crash.... or better said, when the nose of the plane hits the mountain, we don't need to wait to see if the tail will hit it as well.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2014 06:40 PM by Hambone10.)
05-07-2014 06:39 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
Tom, you arguing with someone who knows more about the current state of health care finance than anyone else on this board, and you are suffering badly by comparison.

Put down the water buckets long enough to pay attention and you might actually learn something.
05-07-2014 07:46 PM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #46
Re: RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 12:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  HB, that's a pretty poor example you're citing. They've had financial problems for years.

True, maybe the ACA might make it worse, but this hospital was clearly not a perfect business that is now going under solely because of the ACA.

And some believe that the ACA might actually make it easier for them to find a financial partner to stay open. Now, I am reading an article from January so you clearly have more current information...but still...not a great example to totally blame the ACA for IMO.

I was clinical for years and now I work in my companies corporate headquarters. In the hierarchy I have my director, a VP and then the CEO....that's for a very large system.

Hospitals, as we know it, will die. Admitted patients will be reserved for only the sickest.....ie. dying.

Things are moving to strictly ambulatory based medicine. Sicker patients at home will become common. Long wait times will be common place.

Our system is basically telling medicaid and crap Zerocare plans to eff off. Those folks will be SOL.

Large systems are eating up the market and changing to try and survive this debacle.

I won't even get into rural care.... those folks don't have a chance.

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05-07-2014 07:46 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 07:46 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Tom, you arguing with someone who knows more about the current state of health care finance than anyone else on this board, and you are suffering badly by comparison.

Put down the water buckets long enough to pay attention and you might actually learn something.

Oh shut the hell up. I wasn't arguing with him about health care policy...it was about an alleged claim that I made.

Stay the hell out of other peoples discussions please. Thanks.

And HB, I wasn't really making a claim...I was trying to ask a question. But yes, I could have done it more eloquently. Sorry.
05-08-2014 09:32 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-07-2014 07:46 PM)maximus Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 12:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  HB, that's a pretty poor example you're citing. They've had financial problems for years.

True, maybe the ACA might make it worse, but this hospital was clearly not a perfect business that is now going under solely because of the ACA.

And some believe that the ACA might actually make it easier for them to find a financial partner to stay open. Now, I am reading an article from January so you clearly have more current information...but still...not a great example to totally blame the ACA for IMO.

I was clinical for years and now I work in my companies corporate headquarters. In the hierarchy I have my director, a VP and then the CEO....that's for a very large system.

Hospitals, as we know it, will die. Admitted patients will be reserved for only the sickest.....ie. dying.

Things are moving to strictly ambulatory based medicine. Sicker patients at home will become common. Long wait times will be common place.

Our system is basically telling medicaid and crap Zerocare plans to eff off. Those folks will be SOL.

Large systems are eating up the market and changing to try and survive this debacle.

I won't even get into rural care.... those folks don't have a chance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

So max, if your doomsday scenario even remotely beings to start to play out...don't you think something will be put in place to combat that?
05-08-2014 09:34 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
I'll answer that, because that is why my job exists. I was hired from another industry to address the changing paradigm specifically in rural health care.

The system is designed around large centers. Where you have 5 hospitals you will soon have 3. Where you have 3 in a county you will soon have one. The reason you have 5 in a large center or 3 in a small county is because minutes count. As they close, people WILL die as a result of the delays to get care... and virtually nothing can be done about yhat. Those that survive will have to spread their resources even further. We're looking at a grocery store 'loss leader' model that I can't easily explain... and that is on top of, not instead of a reduction in quality and quantity of available healthcare.

In other words... yes... something WILL change. The quality of care will go down... just as I have been saying. In rural places things will be even worse.

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05-08-2014 11:19 AM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 11:19 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'll answer that, because that is why my job exists. I was hired from another industry to address the changing paradigm specifically in rural health care.

The system is designed around large centers. Where you have 5 hospitals you will soon have 3. Where you have 3 in a county you will soon have one. The reason you have 5 in a large center or 3 in a small county is because minutes count. As they close, people WILL die as a result of the delays to get care... and virtually nothing can be done about yhat. Those that survive will have to spread their resources even further. We're looking at a grocery store 'loss leader' model that I can't easily explain... and that is on top of, not instead of a reduction in quality and quantity of available healthcare.

In other words... yes... something WILL change. The quality of care will go down... just as I have been saying. In rural places things will be even worse.

Is there anyone currently in congress aware of this issue and working to address it?
05-08-2014 11:31 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 11:31 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 11:19 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'll answer that, because that is why my job exists. I was hired from another industry to address the changing paradigm specifically in rural health care.

The system is designed around large centers. Where you have 5 hospitals you will soon have 3. Where you have 3 in a county you will soon have one. The reason you have 5 in a large center or 3 in a small county is because minutes count. As they close, people WILL die as a result of the delays to get care... and virtually nothing can be done about yhat. Those that survive will have to spread their resources even further. We're looking at a grocery store 'loss leader' model that I can't easily explain... and that is on top of, not instead of a reduction in quality and quantity of available healthcare.

In other words... yes... something WILL change. The quality of care will go down... just as I have been saying. In rural places things will be even worse.

Is there anyone currently in congress aware of this issue and working to address it?

The entire Republican party?
05-08-2014 11:39 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
Sure.... but because votes come from large centers and not rural areas, the rural issues won't be solved. The 'supply' issue can be solved by investing another trillion dollars in residency programs and expanding the already large hospitals to handle the supply coming in from the now closed facilities...

But until they invent transporters, the consolidation of hospitals will hurt care. You'll see some of them become 'urgent care' centers... but that's not the same thing as an Emergency Room. The kid with the broken arm could take the extra 30 minute drive... The guy with the acute mi can not

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05-08-2014 11:43 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
Tom... my biggest complaint with obama care is that it articulated the problem of access to healthcare and then did nothing to increase access. All it did was change the way it was funded... which is not what we were told

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05-08-2014 11:45 AM
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tigerjaws Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
Ah.........I see.........after our King ruins Insurance, then the libs will make the DOCS the "bad guys".........This country is F'd up
05-08-2014 11:47 AM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 11:47 AM)tigerjaws Wrote:  Ah.........I see.........after our King ruins Insurance, then the libs will make the DOCS the "bad guys".........This country is F'd up

All as they lead us down the road to single payer or some other top down, bureaucratically run colossus. So much for like your plan, keep your plan or any kind of real patient Doctor relationship.

It'll be ALL about what some paper shuffler will approve and whether you are "deserving" or not.

Nice work, progs.
05-08-2014 11:58 AM
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maximus Offline
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Post: #56
Re: RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 09:34 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 07:46 PM)maximus Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 12:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  HB, that's a pretty poor example you're citing. They've had financial problems for years.

True, maybe the ACA might make it worse, but this hospital was clearly not a perfect business that is now going under solely because of the ACA.

And some believe that the ACA might actually make it easier for them to find a financial partner to stay open. Now, I am reading an article from January so you clearly have more current information...but still...not a great example to totally blame the ACA for IMO.

I was clinical for years and now I work in my companies corporate headquarters. In the hierarchy I have my director, a VP and then the CEO....that's for a very large system.

Hospitals, as we know it, will die. Admitted patients will be reserved for only the sickest.....ie. dying.

Things are moving to strictly ambulatory based medicine. Sicker patients at home will become common. Long wait times will be common place.

Our system is basically telling medicaid and crap Zerocare plans to eff off. Those folks will be SOL.

Large systems are eating up the market and changing to try and survive this debacle.

I won't even get into rural care.... those folks don't have a chance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

So max, if your doomsday scenario even remotely beings to start to play out...don't you think something will be put in place to combat that?

Begins? It did that about 3 years ago. Save the thread if you want.

I'm smack dab in the middle of what's going on. In meetings all day long(literally) about the changes being made.

And no nothing will be put in place to combat it....that's the point.

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05-08-2014 07:56 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
I called a new doctor to make an appointment so I could get some med refills. The first thing the receptionist did was run down a list of insurance providers that they don't accept, luckily mine wasn't among them. When I asked why they accept some plans and not others she told me they don't accept any Obamacare plans at all - PERIOD. Too many requirements, too many restrictions, not enough reimbursement, just not worth it. She said Obamacare is good for a few but very bad for the majority and is making a mess out of the medical profession. I can give you the phone number and you can call her yourself if you want.
05-08-2014 08:29 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
We are going to pay more to wait longer for worse health care.

And the left doesn't have a clue why, because all the problems are on the supply side. And the left doesn't understand the supply side.

They think everybody will be fat, dumb, and happy with Obamacare "insurance." But that "insurance" is ultimately not going to buy any health care.

And what may be even worse is that republicans don't seem to have a clue, either. For God's sake, republicans, pass French Bismarck health care and put democrats in a bind. Do it, and the next ten elections are yours.
(This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 09:23 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
05-08-2014 09:22 PM
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Post: #59
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 07:56 PM)maximus Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 09:34 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 07:46 PM)maximus Wrote:  
(05-07-2014 12:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  HB, that's a pretty poor example you're citing. They've had financial problems for years.

True, maybe the ACA might make it worse, but this hospital was clearly not a perfect business that is now going under solely because of the ACA.

And some believe that the ACA might actually make it easier for them to find a financial partner to stay open. Now, I am reading an article from January so you clearly have more current information...but still...not a great example to totally blame the ACA for IMO.

I was clinical for years and now I work in my companies corporate headquarters. In the hierarchy I have my director, a VP and then the CEO....that's for a very large system.

Hospitals, as we know it, will die. Admitted patients will be reserved for only the sickest.....ie. dying.

Things are moving to strictly ambulatory based medicine. Sicker patients at home will become common. Long wait times will be common place.

Our system is basically telling medicaid and crap Zerocare plans to eff off. Those folks will be SOL.

Large systems are eating up the market and changing to try and survive this debacle.

I won't even get into rural care.... those folks don't have a chance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

So max, if your doomsday scenario even remotely beings to start to play out...don't you think something will be put in place to combat that?

Begins? It did that about 3 years ago. Save the thread if you want.

I'm smack dab in the middle of what's going on. In meetings all day long(literally) about the changes being made.

And no nothing will be put in place to combat it....that's the point.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

My practice is the only urology office for several counties. Another urologist moved from a relatively nearby hospital, so now we basically take ER call for roughly 7 rural hospitals, one being from the great VA system.

The hospital we admit to also recently bought a nearby rural hospital. Not sure how that will turn out.
05-08-2014 09:41 PM
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supertiger Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Obamacare, Insurance, and medical care
(05-08-2014 09:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We are going to pay more to wait longer for worse health care.

And the left doesn't have a clue why, because all the problems are on the supply side. And the left doesn't understand the supply side.

They think everybody will be fat, dumb, and happy with Obamacare "insurance." But that "insurance" is ultimately not going to buy any health care.

And what may be even worse is that republicans don't seem to have a clue, either. For God's sake, republicans, pass French Bismarck health care and put democrats in a bind. Do it, and the next ten elections are yours.

I'd support the German model. The funding mechanism is good for employers and citizens.

Like I've said many times, I'm deeply concerned about some fantasyland where politician say it's possible to have accessible, affordable, AND quality healthcare.

Our current health care system was designed by corporatists and social engineers. The ACA was a grandiose political gesture, but our system is really still on an untenable path.
05-08-2014 09:56 PM
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