Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.
Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.
Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.
Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/06/robert_r...y_partner/

Quote:We’ve endured the most anemic recovery on record because most Americans don’t have enough money to get the economy out of first gear. The economy is barely growing and real wages continue to drop.

Well this part is true. The question is, why?

Quote:We’re the only rich nation to spend less educating poor kids than we do educating kids from wealthy families.

This is false. For one, cities with a high poor population spend a lot more on schools than small towns and suburbs with a more middle-class population. Two, the overwhelming majority of wealthy families send their kids to private school. While they are spending a lot more on education, "we" are not.

Quote:In fact, studies show that increases in the minimum wage put more money in the pockets of people who will spend it – resulting in more jobs, and counteracting any negative employment effects of an increase in the minimum.

There is probably an equilibrium here somewhere. If it is too low, nobody has spending money. If it is too high, you get inflation and diminishing returns. The goal should be to find that equilibrium.

(05-06-2014 11:58 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:We’ve endured the most anemic recovery on record because most Americans don’t have enough money to get the economy out of first gear. The economy is barely growing and real wages continue to drop.

Well this part is true. The question is, why?

I just came from a Senior Design Project Day at a prestigious university.

Some great work by these students. Many compliments from me.

But here's the deal. Much of the work was more automation, and more reduction of labor needs. Again, companies are hiring engineers to improve efficiency, save costs, and it will cost jobs. Lower middle class manual labor jobs.

Now, that doesn't mean that other jobs can't be created, but that takes the proper regulatory/tax environment, and is a different discussion

What I am saying is that the increased inequality is coming from increased automation. I have pointed to this many times before.

The world got past this after the start of the industrial revolution, but will we get to a point where automation just leaves a large caste of people out of work? If so, what then?

(05-06-2014 11:58 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:We’ve endured the most anemic recovery on record because most Americans don’t have enough money to get the economy out of first gear. The economy is barely growing and real wages continue to drop.

Well this part is true. The question is, why?

Quote:We’re the only rich nation to spend less educating poor kids than we do educating kids from wealthy families.

This is false. For one, cities with a high poor population spend a lot more on schools than small towns and suburbs with a more middle-class population. Two, the overwhelming majority of wealthy families send their kids to private school. While they are spending a lot more on education, "we" are not.

Quote:In fact, studies show that increases in the minimum wage put more money in the pockets of people who will spend it – resulting in more jobs, and counteracting any negative employment effects of an increase in the minimum.

There is probably an equilibrium here somewhere. If it is too low, nobody has spending money. If it is too high, you get inflation and diminishing returns. The goal should be to find that equilibrium.

Good post.

(05-06-2014 12:03 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(05-06-2014 11:58 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:We’ve endured the most anemic recovery on record because most Americans don’t have enough money to get the economy out of first gear. The economy is barely growing and real wages continue to drop.

Well this part is true. The question is, why?

I just came from a Senior Design Project Day at a prestigious university.

Some great work by these students. Many compliments from me.

But here's the deal. Much of the work was more automation, and more reduction of labor needs. Again, companies are hiring engineers to improve efficiency, save costs, and it will cost jobs. Lower middle class manual labor jobs.

Now, that doesn't mean that other jobs can't be created, but that takes the proper regulatory/tax environment, and is a different discussion

What I am saying is that the increased inequality is coming from increased automation. I have pointed to this many times before.

The world got past this after the start of the industrial revolution, but will we get to a point where automation just leaves a large caste of people out of work? If so, what then?

This is true regarding loss of manufacturing jobs, but professional, administrative, and engineering jobs aren't keeping pace with inflation either. Salaries have gone nowhere in the last 10 years, whereas housing, electricity, gasoline, and food prices have tripled. Back in 2003, I was making $10 per hour and had about as much disposable income as I do today making $65k with a spouse making $40k. Granted, much of that has to do with a poor financial decision in my home purchase, but $10/hour was pretty easy to live off of then. I was renting an apartment by myself in a good neighborhood and paying $450/month and that included heat, hot water, sewage, and electricity. You can't sniff anything for under $1,000 today and utilities are never included anymore. Heck, my electric bill alone in July is likely to be close to $450. This is a big reason why the millennial generation can't get out of their parents' basement and start acquiring responsibilities in such large numbers compared to my generation. This is a big reason why marriage and birth rates are plummeting. There are major fundamental problems with this economy. Is raising the minimum wage a part of the answer? I doubt it, though I am open to a credible study if it shows it. I hypothesis the depreciating dollar and commodity prices have much more to do with it.

(05-06-2014 12:18 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  This is true regarding loss of manufacturing jobs, but professional, administrative, and engineering jobs aren't keeping pace with inflation either. Salaries have gone nowhere in the last 10 years, whereas housing, electricity, gasoline, and food prices have tripled. Back in 2003, I was making $10 per hour and had about as much disposable income as I do today making $65k with a spouse making $40k. Granted, much of that has to do with a poor financial decision in my home purchase, but $10/hour was pretty easy to live off of then. I was renting an apartment by myself in a good neighborhood and paying $450/month and that included heat, hot water, sewage, and electricity. You can't sniff anything for under $1,000 today and utilities are never included anymore. Heck, my electric bill alone in July is likely to be close to $450. This is a big reason why the millennial generation can't get out of their parents' basement and start acquiring responsibilities in such large numbers compared to my generation. This is a big reason why marriage and birth rates are plummeting. There are major fundamental problems with this economy. Is raising the minimum wage a part of the answer? I doubt it, though I am open to a credible study if it shows it. I hypothesis the depreciating dollar and commodity prices have much more to do with it.

Fair enough. Inflation due to the fed's monetary and budgetary policies are definitely hurting people. So is immigration (and its causes). I'll also add that college tuition has been the single biggest albatross around the middle class' neck for 50 years.

They're all problems w/ the economy.

But I think as far as income inequality goes, much of that ties into automation. The haves are getting more b/c automation is making it easy.

(05-06-2014 12:22 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Fair enough. Inflation due to the fed's monetary and budgetary policies are definitely hurting people. So is immigration (and its causes). I'll also add that college tuition has been the single biggest albatross around the middle class' neck for 50 years.

They're all problems w/ the economy.

But I think as far as income inequality goes, much of that ties into automation. The haves are getting more b/c automation is making it easy.

The transition to a post-scarcity environment is IMO the greatest challenge the classic 'First World' faces. People thought Keynes was daft when he pondered this same question in the General Theory with regard to the Luddites. Everyone felt that new technology would always create new jobs to replace the ones lost.

But as you stated, advancing technology will eventually price everyone out of the market. Clamoring for manufacturing to come back to America is irrelevant when such a shift would only happen if the plant was highly automated.

(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.
Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.
Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.
Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/06/robert_r...y_partner/

Oh Boy! How lost can you get?

Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.


Rich and CEO's have the MONEY and vision to create goods and services people want causing demand for their product creating jobs that create middle class. Personal Computers, iPads, iPhones etc. weren't things people thought about 30 years ago.

Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.

Ever hear of supply and demand? Develop a skill that is needed and in short supply and you'll easily make what you are worth (Engineers, Accountants, Technical and skilled labor). Just finish high school and think you can make $100,000... saying you want fries with that isn't a skill.

Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.

I went from what would be considered poor to upper middle class it was a lot of hard work but anyone can make it if they develop an in demand skill.

Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

Really? It won't? Look at how companies re-engineered their stores after the jump from $3.35 to $7.25. Retailers installed self-service kiosks and central checkout areas and eliminated retail clerks. Fast food operators like McDonald's redesigned food prep and order taking areas reducing their staff.

If there is a 50% or greater increase in the minimum wage look for fast food chains to replace order takers with kiosks like at Sheetz where it works just fine.

Then companies will make up the difference by raising prices to get back to the profitability they had before the increase. Putting minimum wage workers in the same spot they are in today.

Left wing lie... That how much your neighbor has is your business.

(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.

If that's a lie then why are illegals flooding our country?

(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.

SO who creates the jobs?

Quote:Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.

No, a person is paid what they can ge in the market.

Quote:Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.

WHy not?

Quote:Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

Ask Seattle and NYC and California after they raise the minimum wage.. then come back and tell me it'll keep a status quo in jobs (at best.)

You used Robert Reich as your source? THe man is book smart, but in terms of real-world practicality, the man is an idiot.

(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.
Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.
Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.
Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/06/robert_r...y_partner/

1. You're right. Most people work for small businesses. My office employs less than 15 people. My dad's office is probably less than 10. The problem is that taxes and regulations prevent people from making the leap to open their own business.

2. Yes, people are paid their worth. A desirable skill (engineer, plumber, nurse) gets paid more than a grunt (ditch digger, burger flipper, mail runner)

3. Umm, apparently the people at salon.com have missed out on something called the American Dream

4. Well, since something like 2-3% of the work force earns minimum wage and most of those people are part time! it might not result in major layoffs, but will result in price increases.

(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.
Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.
Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.
Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/06/robert_r...y_partner/

Only four? I guess that's what we are doing wrong. If we can get that number of lies up into the hundreds we might be able to reach the Obama constituency.

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(05-06-2014 11:47 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Lie number one: The rich and CEOs are America’s job creators.

The poor can create jobs through consumption. Clerks at Wal-Mart, order takers and burger flippers at McDonald's, lots of minimum-wage, minimum-productivity retail/service jobs. If you think you can build an economy on that, good luck.

IF you want good-paying jobs, you need production jobs. That requires investment by the private sector. And that means the rich and CEOs.

Quote:Lie number two: People are paid what they’re worth in the market.

The market isn't perfect, but it does a better job than anything else. Disagree? Then what else does better?

The market doesn't pay people $15/hour for doing $5/hour of work. But that's not a case of not paying people what they are worth.

Quote:Lie number three: Anyone can make it in America with enough guts, gumption, and intelligence.

The argument given here is disingenuous. Examples where not everybody DOES are given as indicative that not everybody can. Not everybody who can does. That's called risk. Lefties don't comprehend risk, much less the relationship of risk and reward.

Quote:
Lie number four: Increasing the minimum wage will result in fewer jobs.
http://www.salon.com/2014/05/06/robert_r...y_partner/

Let's just wait and see how this one works.