quo vadis
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 01:47 PM)FIUFan Wrote: (04-23-2014 09:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote: ... and as I noted, that argument fails, because women's college basketball is in no way shape or form in the same league as men's basketball and football. Not in dollars, attendance, media attention, anything we care to talk about. Not in the same galaxy.
So which NCAA sport would you classify as number 3?
.....crickets
Who cares what sport is #3, if #3 (be it women's hoops, baseball, or hockey) is so far behind #1 and #2 that it is ridiculous to mention it in the same breath with them.
Which it is.
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2014 07:44 PM by quo vadis.)
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04-23-2014 07:41 PM |
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quo vadis
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 04:38 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: (04-23-2014 02:59 PM)billybobby777 Wrote: (04-23-2014 01:38 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: (04-23-2014 12:40 PM)billybobby777 Wrote: (04-22-2014 09:58 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: Did the MW ever average between 40k-50k in attendance? Yeah, I didn't think so. Reading comprehension is your friend. Any G5 conference that has an average of 40-50k in attendance is going to command a significant media contract and will have strong enough fan support to merit being seen as a power conference. That said, averaging 40-50k is a significant hurdle.
You're kind of changing the rules but during that time BYU averaged 64k, Utah averaged 45k, TCU was at least 40k, Air Force averaged at least 40k in their 50k stadium and even New Mexico and San Diego St averaged close to 40k. That leaves only 3 schools of the MWC era, Wyoming, Colorado St and UNLV. Only UNLV seats 40k but I'm sure they weren't even close. and the other two certainly didn't hit the mark you are saying is the magic number, but then again by your admission the AAC doesn't hit the mark nor do all the AAC stadiums seat at least 40,000. Tulane seats 30k, Tulsa 30k, Cincinnati 35k, Houston 35k, SMU 30k... I believe UCONN is right at 40k. The NFL stadium playing teams like USF and Temple have huge stadiums to play in but do they average 40 to 50k right now? Memphis and UCF also have capacities within your range but only the latter would qualify. ECU far and away has the best thing going here and that's a 50k on campus stadium. My original point stands. The MWC qualified under the rules of BCS inclusion during the mid-2000's, but never was included. If the AAC were to ever merit inclusion, the league will suffer the same fate. The best, ummm "most qualified" will get a call up to be with the Power Schools; not the entire conference. History repeats itself. For proof see: Arizona, Arizona St,(plucked from WAC) Utah, TCU (plucked from MWC)and Louisville, Rutgers and West Virginia (plucked from Big East/American)
At some point, the seats in the P5 conferences will be full and there will be no room (or no more desire) to expand. At that point, a G5 conference, given these conditions, could organically grow its attendance to the point it is for all intents and purposes a power conference with no fear of its best programs getting poached.
New Mexico doesn't even hold 40K--and they average NOWHERE close to 40K. Air Force has not averaged 40K in any year I can remember. TCU doesn't even average 40K playing in the Big-12.
By the way, the old MW NEVER qualified as an AQ conference. There were 3 qualification measures and the MW only qualified under two of them. The MW requested AQ status under a provision which would have granted them a waiver from having to qualify under all 3 criteria. The BCS denied that waiver since the MW had NEVER EVER qualified under all 3 criteria. The Big East operated under a similar waiver---however, to be fair, the Big East HAD qualified under all 3 criteria in earlier years and was granted a waiver to allow them time to return to that level of performance after being ravaged by realignment. Effectively, the CFP revoked the Big East waiver going forward into the new playoff era.
Actually, you're wrong. I won't argue with someone who looks on wikipedia rather than travels the entire country going to college football games except to point out one thing. You pick one of the worst programs in your example of saying the MWC didn't make the criteria. We're referring to the mid 2000's when the MWC was trying to qualify for auto AQ status. New Mexico's stadium was bigger then. It was 43,000 or something. According to my old Phil Steele magazines it was exactly 43,000. So you're wrong. I even went to the Texas A&M vs New Mexico game during that era and it wasn't even an announced sell out although the game had close to 40k. New Mexico vs New Mexico St had 45,000 a few years earlier the program from the game says that day. Yes, even New Mexico was close to 40k average during that era, and they were the bottom of the MWC. My point is the MWC during that era of BYU, TCU, BYU etc. was closer to the BCS leagues than the AAC is to the P5. By a country mile. I'd rather have ECU in the AAC then in CUSA, but I realize unlike you that ECU will be playing with P5 boys weekly when they've joined one of the P5 leagues. The AAC will never ever be elevated up to that status. P.S. Travel the country and attend some games. You'll find the experience to be much more entertaining than going to a couple of games a year in Houston.
FYI--I don't think the AAC is a P5 right now. My whole point, and it applies as much to the MW and CUSA as it does to the AAC---is a G5 conference that grows to the point where all or most of its members have an average attendance between 40-50K will end up getting power conference treatment (if it doesn't have its top teams poached away). I
We all know the history: When a school from a small conference raises its market value into the "big time" domain, they get poached by a power conference.
Their old conference remains exactly where it always has been, doesn't get promoted.
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2014 07:46 PM by quo vadis.)
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04-23-2014 07:46 PM |
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Pirate1
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
65 Schools are going to be it Once they get a taste for all that playoff money, no school or conference will ever get in and get a snippet of all that cold hard cash. Unless your school can bump up the cut of each and everyone of the 65's cut, it ain't never going to happen.
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2014 08:12 PM by Pirate1.)
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04-23-2014 08:11 PM |
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FrancisDrake
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 02:18 PM)Piratelife4me Wrote: (04-23-2014 12:51 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: BTW, I like the 40K as a guideline for a P5 type conference. You may have a school or two (like Duke or Wake Forest) that are under that, but 40K should be the goal.
That being said...Houston is going to 40K, Cincinnati is going to 40K....UCF, UConn, and ECU are there. USF has averaged 40K and Temple certainly has the capacity to as does Memphis. Tulane and Tulsa and SMU all are below, but as well are the private small colleges similar to the Duke and Wake Forest's...Navy would be in that category as well...and all of them are over 30K with nice stadiums.
Outside of ECU and maybe UCF...I don't see anyone else getting up to 55K or so...but I don't think that is keeping anyone from competing in big time athletics. The goal of the conference should be to get those seats filled...and Temple, Memphis and USF to get over 40K. If you can get everyone to 30K and 7 or 8 to 40K, that's significant as a selling point in terms of being P5'esque.
Maybe UCF, They have potential go higher with 50k students and large alumni base.
ECU has hit its attendance peak in 2011.
2007-41,537
2008-42,016
2009-41,742
2010-49,655 (first year of 50k capacity)
2011-50,012
2012-47,013
2013-43,985 (thurs night game)
Reason why ECU will not average 55k ever in the AAC
1. Downward attendance trend
2. Most years only have one strong P5 game on home slate (only UNC, NCSU, USC or unlikely sec teams could put 55k in the stands)
3. No local conference rivalry
4.Thursday night games. Playing multiple thursday night games will cripple attendance (only 37.5k for this years Thurs night game) Good for exposure terrible for ECU attendance
5.Pirate club stagnant growth and season ticket sales have leveled out
First year in the American I expect ECU to average 45K
Range 42-47k
Well first, ECU wont average 55k bc that is about 4900 seats larger than the stadium's capacity. However, this year could peak again. Coming off a 10 win season and a lot of hype going in. The UCONN Thursday night game will do well, while not a football name, the Huskies are a known name, we have a large NE student population, and there will be excitement about it. The other Thursday is UCF and I think that game depends on the resume at that time. If the Pirates can deliver on the field I'd wager 47-50k average.
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04-24-2014 08:59 AM |
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FIUFan
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 07:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote: Who cares what sport is #3, if #3 (be it women's hoops, baseball, or hockey) is so far behind #1 and #2 that it is ridiculous to mention it in the same breath with them.
Which it is.
Apparently you do since you called him out for calling Women's hoops the number three sport, yet provide no support to uphold your arguement.
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04-24-2014 09:19 AM |
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hack
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 04:08 PM)upstater1 Wrote: (04-23-2014 03:51 PM)hack Wrote: (04-23-2014 02:22 PM)upstater1 Wrote: (04-23-2014 01:57 PM)hack Wrote: I'm Guessing the lazy forbes writers did a little more research than you. Donations for Basketball was around 21.5 millions and Football around 7-8 millions , not $0. But nice try.
You guessed wrong. They didn't.
The Doe doesn't give breakdowns of rev sources by sport. indyStar did as of last year but has now gotten rid of the site: http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_...field_rank
Even the Knight Commission pointed to the IndyStar database: http://www.knightcommission.org/fiscal-i...rity-links
USA Today used to but no more: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/co...54955804/1
Nonetheless, we can backdate this a bit: http://www.louisvillecardinal.com/2011/1...ue-nation/
In that season, Louisville had $14m in ticket sales. How did it get to $40m in revenue?
Look at page 308 of Louisville's budget where the numbers are broken down differently: http://louisville.edu/finance/budget/opb...ok1213.pdf
Here you will see the football and bball programs being roughly equal in terms of revenue.
I am telling you that in the past (for 2009 and 2010) IndyStar had ZERO in donations under football and the entire amount under basketball.
I can understand how Louisville can do this, since my schools have only one donation fund that is NOT tied to sport. You donate to the sports fund and then request the right to purchase tickets, and they service you accordingly.
This kid lists the 2011 contribution total
http://www.gocards.com/sports/m-baskbl/s...html#thumb here UL Yum center seating. The lower bowl hold around 11348, if you put a pencil to it you will see that ticket prices are around 17000000 just for the lower bowl. Also I think the Yum has something like 72 luxury suites.
The total given in Louisville's own budget for basketball revenue was $23 million for 2013.
I'm sorry I told you wrong in my post. That is not the price of the ticket, that what you have to donation to buy the ticket. Here is a better link. http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/lou/...-chart.pdf and here is the one football http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/lou/...-chart.pdf
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04-24-2014 09:22 AM |
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quo vadis
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-24-2014 09:19 AM)FIUFan Wrote: (04-23-2014 07:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote: Who cares what sport is #3, if #3 (be it women's hoops, baseball, or hockey) is so far behind #1 and #2 that it is ridiculous to mention it in the same breath with them.
Which it is.
Apparently you do since you called him out for calling Women's hoops the number three sport, yet provide no support to uphold your arguement.
That is ridiculous. What I objected to was this statement from post #103:
"There are only 3 titles that matter ...Mens Football, UCF champs. Mens BB UL champs, Womans BB Uconn champs.. sorry quo epic fail."
I have never called him out for calling women's hoops the #3 sport. I have called him or anyone else out for putting women's hoops in the same category as men's basketball and football as "major" sports, as one of the three "titles that matter", when women's hoops - or whatever the #3 sport happens to be - is so much smaller that it is absurd to include it in that category.
There are two categories of college sports: (1) men's basketball and football, and (2) everything else. The first two are the titles that matter.
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2014 10:05 AM by quo vadis.)
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04-24-2014 10:01 AM |
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Bearcats#1
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
LOL women's hoops...
If I had a choice, I'd rather my men's hoops team win the NIT than my women's hoops team win the ncaa....
sorry, just don't give a flying flip about women's hoops
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04-24-2014 09:36 PM |
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Bearcats#1
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-23-2014 07:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote: (04-23-2014 01:47 PM)FIUFan Wrote: (04-23-2014 09:03 AM)quo vadis Wrote: ... and as I noted, that argument fails, because women's college basketball is in no way shape or form in the same league as men's basketball and football. Not in dollars, attendance, media attention, anything we care to talk about. Not in the same galaxy.
So which NCAA sport would you classify as number 3?
.....crickets
Who cares what sport is #3, if #3 (be it women's hoops, baseball, or hockey) is so far behind #1 and #2 that it is ridiculous to mention it in the same breath with them.
Which it is.
IF women's hoops (hahahah) is number three....it would look like this visually:
College Football
Men's Basketball
women's hoops
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04-24-2014 09:47 PM |
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Stallion
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
I think its time to hire the top anti-trust lawyers in the United States-actually that was 15 years ago
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04-24-2014 09:53 PM |
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Pony94
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"No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-24-2014 09:53 PM)Stallion Wrote: I think its time to hire the top anti-trust lawyers in the United States-actually that was 15 years ago
You chase ambulances go for it
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04-24-2014 09:57 PM |
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upstater1
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RE: "No plans to expand P5" -Mike Slive
(04-24-2014 09:36 PM)Bearcats#1 Wrote: LOL women's hoops...
If I had a choice, I'd rather my men's hoops team win the NIT than my women's hoops team win the ncaa....
sorry, just don't give a flying flip about women's hoops
I don't care about it either. I only know that it gets the school I root for a ton of publicity, it gets really good ratings, and makes money for the AD for the school I root for. These are very good things.
Put it this way: more people in the New York market watched the UConn women play than people in the Louisville market watched Kentucky play. Louisville did a 45 rating for the men's championship, while New York did a 4.8 rating for the women's championship.
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04-25-2014 07:34 AM |
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