National Championships in Football, how many ACC schools have won one?

(04-17-2014 01:19 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  National Championships in Football, how many ACC schools have won one?

6 schools have won one (not counting Maryland in 1953), although BC also claims one in 1940 that no one else recognizes.

School, Institutional Claims, NCAA Records Book recognized major selectors, AP or Coaches Poll

Pitt 9, 11, 2
Miami 5, 9, 5
Georgia Tech 4, 6, 1
FSU 3, 8, 3
Clemson 1, 1, 1
Syracuse 1, 1, 1
Boston College 1, 0, 0

School (Champs) - Seasons
Pittsburgh (9) - 1910, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1936, 1937, 1976
Miami (5) - 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001
Georgia Tech (4) - 1917, 1928, 1952, 1990
Florida State (3) - 1993, 1999, 2013
Boston College (1) - 1940
Clemson (1) - 1981
Syracuse (1) - 1959

I assume you can figure out which of these occurred as members of the ACC and which occurred before joining?

Partial:
Notre Dame (13) - 1919, 1924, 1929, 1930, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1964, 1966, 1973, 1977, 1988

Out-going:
Maryland (1) - 1953

The same number as every other conference. Zero.

Thank you, Hokie Mark, so we have a great football legacy. Swofford needs to do a better job selling ACC Football to the public and media!

(04-17-2014 01:30 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  School (Champs) - Seasons
Pittsburgh (9) - 1910, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1936, 1937, 1976
Miami (5) - 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001
Georgia Tech (4) - 1917, 1928, 1952, 1990
Florida State (3) - 1993, 1999, 2013
Boston College (1) - 1940
Clemson (1) - 1981
Syracuse (1) - 1959

I assume you can figure out which of these occurred as members of the ACC and which occurred before joining?

Partial:
Notre Dame (13) - 1919, 1924, 1929, 1930, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1964, 1966, 1973, 1977, 1988

Out-going:
Maryland (1) - 1953

ND claims 11 national championships in football:

"Since the AP began certifying the winner of its national crown in 1936, Notre Dame has won more national championships than any other team in the country. The Irish have won eight titles (1943-46-47-49-66-73-77-88) -- with Oklahoma second on the list with six."

"Notre Dame generally is considered to have earned 11 consensus national titles (1924-29-30-43-46-47-49-66-73-77-88). But there have been 19 seasons in which Notre Dame has qualified as a national champion from at least one legitimate poll, with all teams receiving national championship mention and their individual selectors noted."




"Here are Notre Dame's 11 consensus seasons:

Year Team Record Coach Selector
1924 Notre Dame 10-0 Knute Rockne DS, Helms, Boand, FR, Houl,
NCF, Poling
Pennsylvania 9-1-1 Lou Young Davis

1929 Notre Dame 9-0 Knute Rockne DS, Dunkel, Boand, Helms, FR,
NCF, Poling
Pittsburgh 9-1 J. Sutherland Davis
USC 10-2 Howard Jones Houlgate

1930 Notre Dame 10-0 Knute Rockne All but FR, tie for Davis
Alabama 10-0 Wallace Wade Davis (tie), FR

1943 Notre Dame 9-1 Frank Leahy Unanimous

1946 Notre Dame 8-0-1 Frank Leahy AP, Dunkel, LS, Devold, NCF,
Helms (tie), Boand (tie), Poling (tie)
Army 9-0-1 Red Blaik Houlgate, FR, Boand (tie), Helms (tie),
Poling (tie)
Georgia 11-0 Wally Butts WS

1947 Notre Dame 9-0 Frank Leahy AP, WS, Helms (tie)
Michigan 10-0 Fritz Crisler Dunkel, LS, Houlgate, Helms (tie),
Boand, FR, Devold, NCF, Poling

1949 Notre Dame 10-0 Frank Leahy All but FR
Oklahoma 11-0 Bud Wilkinson FR

1966 Notre Dame 9-0-1 Ara Parseghian AP, UPI, FWAA, Dunkel,LS,
Devold, FN, Matthews,
NFFHF (tie), Helms (tie)
Michigan State 9-0-1 D. Daugherty FR, Helms (tie), NFFHF (tie)

1973 Notre Dame 11-0 Ara Parseghian AP, FWAA, NFFHF, Helms, FN
Alabama 10-1 Bear Bryant UPI (even though ND beat Alabama in the Sugar Bowl)
Oklahoma 10-0-1 Barry Switzer Dunkel, FR, Devold

1977 Notre Dame 11-1 Dan Devine All but FR (tie)
Alabama 11-1 Bear Bryant FR (tie)

1988 Notre Dame 12-0 Lou Holtz Unanimous"

A lot of those old claimed ones have like 8 teams in the same year claiming stuff from 11 or 12 publications. Many of them are garbage. Thank God there is now a system pitting top teams against each other.

Personally, I have only counted AP/UPI "champions", historically. I never worried about those other ones like Dunkel, etc...

(04-17-2014 01:19 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  National Championships in Football, how many ACC schools have won one?

They aren't real.

/hoo fans

Real enough.

(04-17-2014 01:49 PM)Ragu Wrote:  A lot of those old claimed ones have like 8 teams in the same year claiming stuff from 11 or 12 publications. Many of them are garbage. Thank God there is now a system pitting top teams against each other.

Prior to the two poll system that started in 1950, there are not any seasons with more than 5 different selected champions as listed in the NCAA Records Book as being from "major" selectors. Further, five "major" selections only happened five times between 1869 and 1949 (1919, 1921, 1926, 1927, and 1935). None of those seasons involved any ACC teams.

BTW, BC's 1940 selection is not considered to have been awarded by a major selector.

(04-17-2014 02:21 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 01:19 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  National Championships in Football, how many ACC schools have won one?

They aren't real.

/hoo fans

LOL.

My Two Cents. The only pre-AP championships worth counting are Helms. They did their retroactive analysis back in 1936, and have been published for such a long time as to give the championships value. Others are either too recent, have too many co-champions, or just are not well enough recognized.

The prominently recognized contemporaneous awards are the AP (1936-present), Coaches (UPI 1950-1990, USAT 1991-present), FWAA (Grantland Rice Trophy 1954-present), NFF (MacArthur Bowl 1959-present), and the BCS (1998-2013, with the Coaches and NFF titles automatically awarded to the winner). I have also included below the USAT media championships (1982-1990) and the International New Service media championships (1952-1957) because these were widely publicized championships. However, these really don't have as much value as the other titles, because they were discontinued, and because they started later than and were not as widely respected at the time as the AP and the UPI.

Finally, note that some championships were awarded before the bowls. The FWAA was the first to start awarding after the bowls in 1954 (after the 1951 and 1953 champions, Tennessee and Maryland, lost their bowl games). The AP started doing so in 1965, and UPI (Coaches) in 1974.

Of all of the listed champions below, I would identify 1952 Georgia Tech (undefeated, but not recognized by the AP or UPI), 1953 Maryland (lost their bowl), and 1964 Notre Dame (had one loss as compared to undefeated and untied FWAA champ Arkansas, and not recognized by the AP or UPI) as arguably weak claims.

Really, Helms is the gold standard up until 1935. Since 1936, the AP has been the gold standard except for 1960 and 1964, when their champions lost their bowls and the FWAA awarded a post bowl championship. With respect to 1990 Georgia Tech (11-0-1), I think the AP got it wrong. GT was the better team over Colorado (10-1-1) and deserved the championship based on generally accepted criteria.

2013 Florida State (AP, BCS, FWAA, NFF, USAT(coaches))
2001 Miami (AP, BCS, FWAA, NFF, USAT-ESPN(coaches))
1999 Florida State (AP, BCS, FWAA, NFF, USAT-ESPN(coaches))
1993 Florida State (AP, FWAA, UPI, USAT-NFF, USAT-CNN(media))
1991 Miami (AP)
1990 Georgia Tech (UPI)
1989 Miami (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI, USAT-CNN(media))
1988 Notre Dame (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI, USAT-CNN(media))
1987 Miami (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI, USAT-CNN(media))
1983 Miami (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI, USAT-CNN(media))
1981 Clemson (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI)
1977 Notre Dame (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI)
1976 Pittsburgh (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI)
1973 Notre Dame (AP, FWAA, NFF)
1966 Notre Dame (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI)
1964 Notre Dame (NFF)
1959 Syracuse (AP, FWAA, NFF, UPI)
1953 Maryland (AP, UPI, INS)
1952 Georgia Tech (INS)
1949 Notre Dame (AP)
1947 Notre Dame (AP)
1946 Notre Dame (AP)
1943 Notre Dame (AP)
1937 Pittsburgh (AP)
1930 Notre Dame (HELMS)
1929 Notre Dame (HELMS)
1928 Georgia Tech (HELMS)
1924 Notre Dame (HELMS)
1918 Pittsburgh (HELMS)
1917 Georgia Tech (HELMS)
1916 Pittsburgh (HELMS)

If your football title happened when the population of Florida was still less than Tennessee or Alabama, it shouldn't count.

(04-17-2014 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  My Two Cents. The only pre-AP championships worth counting are Helms.

Actually, Helms football championships weren't selected until 1948, and they were selected essentially by one person, Bill Schroeder.

Helms are essentially equivalent to Parke Davis, except Parke Davis actually was around to watch many of the teams and were published in the most influential annual of the day, Spaulding's Annual...which would be something like Sports Illustrated today. There are several other more contemporaneous selectors than Helms.

You really can't say one is superior to the others. Every single one represents opinion, collective or singular, by a self-declared authority on the matter. What you can say is that some had greater prominence than others, and thus those are the ones listed by football historians in the NCAA Records Book as being "national in scope". Certainly when the AP poll got going, it quickly rose to prominence, but it wasn't some immediately unchallenged authority as it seems today.

You also have to keep in mind that the Coaches' poll didn't come in existence until 1950, so prior to that, there wasn't a two poll system that is now pretty much considered the default determinants of "real" national championships....what the NCAA Records Book has termed "Consensus" (not that it means unanimous). Even today, the Coaches' Poll shows its importance since its championship (as well as the National Football Foundation championship) is awarded by contract to the winner of the BCS (the BCS is not a national championship selector in its own right, it is just a system to matches team #1 and team #2 in a game). That, in effect, is what gave the BCS Championship the legitimacy of a National Championship.

And what is even more surprising, not until 1968 did the AP consider bowl results, and not until 1974 did the Coaches' poll factor them in. Bowl statistics weren't even counted in official NCAA player statistics until 2002. So for a long time, bowls were considered exhibitions by many, and the weight of their results vary quite a bit from one selector to another, particularly when considering if it was a contemporary selector or a retroactive one. When you don't have a unified or uniform system for determining championships on the field, you obviously risk contradictory opinions. And since the national governing body of the sport, the NCAA, has no say and makes no judgement on any one selection or claim, there simply isn't any final authority to turn to.

Now as far as basketball, Helms has really been the only source that went back and retroactively picked basketball national champions, so it is the only pre-national tournament selector of any prominence and thus there aren't really multiple selections and claims for each of those early years.

(04-17-2014 05:28 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(04-17-2014 03:53 PM)orangefan Wrote:  My Two Cents. The only pre-AP championships worth counting are Helms.

Actually, Helms football championships weren't selected until 1948, and they were selected essentially by one person, Bill Schroeder.

Helms are essentially equivalent to Parke Davis, except Parke Davis actually was around to watch many of the teams and were published in the most influential annual of the day, Spaulding's Annual...which would be something like Sports Illustrated today. There are several other more contemporaneous selectors than Helms.

You really can't say one is superior to the others. Every single one represents opinion, collective or singular, by a self-declared authority on the matter. What you can say is that some had greater prominence than others, and thus those are the ones listed by football historians in the NCAA Records Book as being "national in scope". Certainly when the AP poll got going, it quickly rose to prominence, but it wasn't some immediately unchallenged authority as it seems today.

You also have to keep in mind that the Coaches' poll didn't come in existence until 1950, so prior to that, there wasn't a two poll system that is now pretty much considered the default determinants of "real" national championships....what the NCAA Records Book has termed "Consensus" (not that it means unanimous). Even today, the Coaches' Poll shows its importance since its championship (as well as the National Football Foundation championship) is awarded by contract to the winner of the BCS (the BCS is not a national championship selector in its own right, it is just a system to matches team #1 and team #2 in a game). That, in effect, is what gave the BCS Championship the legitimacy of a National Championship.

And what is even more surprising, not until 1968 did the AP consider bowl results, and not until 1974 did the Coaches' poll factor them in. Bowl statistics weren't even counted in official NCAA player statistics until 2002. So for a long time, bowls were considered exhibitions by many, and the weight of their results vary quite a bit from one selector to another, particularly when considering if it was a contemporary selector or a retroactive one. When you don't have a unified or uniform system for determining championships on the field, you obviously risk contradictory opinions. And since the national governing body of the sport, the NCAA, has no say and makes no judgement on any one selection or claim, there simply isn't any final authority to turn to.

Now as far as basketball, Helms has really been the only source that went back and retroactively picked basketball national champions, so it is the only pre-national tournament selector of any prominence and thus there aren't really multiple selections and claims for each of those early years.

Thank you for the history lesson on Parke Davis (sincerely). Spaulding Guides were indeed incredibly respected in their day. If I understand correctly, though, Davis's picks were published in one edition, in 1933. Helms published and republished its list annually and widely, which gives it an imprimatur it probably does not deserve. Davis also appears to have made some anomalous picks - he's the only selector to bypass the legendary 1924 Four Horseman Notre Dame team that went undefeated, preferring instead Penn at 9-1-1. I'm sure Penn was outstanding, but it strikes me as an intentionally contrarian pick.