Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

In my opinion, this complaint is hogwash. Every branch of the military has chaplains and that does not violate the separation of church and state.

If the devotions, bible studies and other activities are voluntary (and they most certainly are), then there is nothing to see here.

These folks need to have a coke and a smile.

(04-15-2014 07:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(04-15-2014 08:03 PM)ren.hoek Wrote:  In my opinion, this complaint is hogwash. Every branch of the military has chaplains and that does not violate the separation of church and state.

If the devotions, bible studies and other activities are voluntary (and they most certainly are), then there is nothing to see here.

These folks need to have a coke and a smile.


[quote='Marge Schott' pid='10672463' dateline='1397608625']

Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

Christian self-entitlement strikes again.

When the entire team takes a trip to church, FCA meetings and other religious functions that are organized and led by the coaches, it definitely blurs the line of Church and State. A lot of coaches practice their faith publicly but I'm just not aware of other instances where it's literally a religious team field trip.

(04-15-2014 09:01 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  When the entire team takes a trip to church, FCA meetings and other religious functions that are organized and led by the coaches, it definitely blurs the line of Church and State. A lot of coaches practice their faith publicly but I'm just not aware of other instances where it's literally a religious team field trip.

Hogwash, dude! It does not unless its a requirement to keep the scholarship! Praise be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

(04-15-2014 09:06 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 09:01 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  When the entire team takes a trip to church, FCA meetings and other religious functions that are organized and led by the coaches, it definitely blurs the line of Church and State. A lot of coaches practice their faith publicly but I'm just not aware of other instances where it's literally a religious team field trip.

Hogwash, dude! It does not unless its a requirement to keep the scholarship! Praise be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

I don't see where Marge said anything inaccurate. He said it blurs the lines and it absolutely does.

(04-15-2014 08:45 PM)krux Wrote:  Christian self-entitlement strikes again.

Pretty much.

If you have never been part of an outside group that doesn't conform to what the majority see as the norm you might not understand the amount of pressure it can apply.

It is peer pressure to the extreme. When you consider the pressure is being applied by the HC and his assistants who whold a students academic/athletic futures in their hands one can see why a student might feel like he has no choice but to attend 'optional' activities.

Bottom line this is a state funded school and Dabo is a state employee. If this were a private school I would have no problem with it.

Thank you for putting that much more eloquently than I did, WNC.

I believe the difference here is how one views religious faith. One view says you check it at the door as a state employee and effectively separate yourself from it in those duties. The other view is much more comprehensive in its scope. This view would assert that your faith is lived out in every sphere of life. In other words, if God truly reigns over every area of my life, then there is no separation between secular and spiritual. That does not mean that you force it on anyone, hence the optional activities. In the context of being a football coach, mentoring young men to be good representatives of the school will involve sharing your own life experiences on what helps you personally to be a better man.

Very respectfully submitted and my last comment on the matter, rather than engaging in a 100 page debate

(04-15-2014 09:17 PM)WNCOrange Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 08:45 PM)krux Wrote:  Christian self-entitlement strikes again.

Pretty much.

If you have never been part of an outside group that doesn't conform to what the majority see as the norm you might not understand the amount of pressure it can apply.

It is peer pressure to the extreme. When you consider the pressure is being applied by the HC and his assistants who whold a students academic/athletic futures in their hands one can see why a student might feel like he has no choice but to attend 'optional' activities.

Bottom line this is a state funded school and Dabo is a state employee. If this were a private school I would have no problem with it.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(04-15-2014 07:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

This thread isn't going to end well.

(04-15-2014 10:42 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 07:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

This thread isn't going to end well.

Religion and political threads rarely do.

(04-15-2014 10:38 PM)ren.hoek Wrote:  I believe the difference here is how one views religious faith. One view says you check it at the door as a state employee and effectively separate yourself from it in those duties. The other view is much more comprehensive in its scope. This view would assert that your faith is lived out in every sphere of life. In other words, if God truly reigns over every area of my life, then there is no separation between secular and spiritual. That does not mean that you force it on anyone, hence the optional activities. In the context of being a football coach, mentoring young men to be good representatives of the school will involve sharing your own life experiences on what helps you personally to be a better man.

Very respectfully submitted and my last comment on the matter, rather than engaging in a 100 page debate

A few thoughts ...

I would argue that him practicing his faith doesn't require bus trips, team baptisms and many of the other things he is doing. It is very clear (to me at least) that he is using his position as a state employee to proselytize and to try convert non-Christians.

Optional and voluntary are in the eye of the beholder. Someone already in the group can see it very differently than those on the outside looking in.

I suspect if the FFRF group pushes this to court Clemson will fold because they know they will lose.

All of that said thank you for your respectful replies as threads like these can get ugly. So I appreciate your effort above.

This group might have an argument if they could cite a circumstance where a player was discriminated against because they did not choose to participate or felt compelled by the staff to participate when they otherwise wouldn't have, but it hasn't happened. The Clemson coaching staff knows where the line in the sand is and they make sure not to cross it.

(04-16-2014 02:31 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  This group might have an argument if they could cite a circumstance where a player was discriminated against because they did not choose to participate or felt compelled by the staff to participate when they otherwise wouldn't have, but it hasn't happened. The Clemson coaching staff knows where the line in the sand is and they make sure not to cross it.

I agree with you 100%. Hope Dabo does not change a thing! Fedora just added a team chaplain at Carolina as well.

Matthew 10:32
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Something to think about, considering you are gambling with soul and its eternal salvation!

I think that Wilkie, Kaplony and ren.hoek would applaud this:


http://gameday.nd.edu/experience/spiritual/

(04-16-2014 06:47 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I think that Wilkie, Kaplony and ren.hoek would applaud this:


http://gameday.nd.edu/experience/spiritual/

http://gameday.nd.edu/experience/spiritual/
[/quote]



When I played football, ran track, and wrestled, I belonged to The Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

(04-15-2014 07:37 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

Quote:According to a letter of complaint to Clemson, the Freedom From Religion Foundation claims coach Dabo Swinney has violated the separation of church and state by arranging by Bible studies and devotionals, and distributing Bibles and other religious materials to players.

The FFRF also contends, according to information it's received, that:
• Swinney confirmed that the entire team would attend an FCA breakfast Dec. 31, 2011, wherein three players would “testify.”

• Three privately funded buses (116-seat total capacity) were used to take the team and coaches to Valley Brook Baptist Church on Aug. 7, 2011, and on other occasions for worship on “Church Day.”

• Swinney schedules team devotionals. Records indicate that between March 2012 and April 2013, approximately 87 devotionals were organized by Trapp, approved by Swinney and led by the coaching staff.

I don't care if a coach is religious (doesn't have to be a Christian religion) and publicly expresses that with school/team personnel, alumni/fans and recruits/players. However, I do see why this can be viewed as crossing the line.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-s...18852.html

Good for Dabo.