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Obi Update
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Post: #21
RE: Obi Update
(04-15-2014 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(04-15-2014 02:45 PM)Barrett Wrote:  If Obi doesn't want to play for Rice anymore, that's fine and I wish him all the best. I do hope, however, that he doesn't get a waiver, and to the extent Rice can, that it oppose any waiver. There needs to be a deterrent to these kids transferring simply because they want greener pastures.

I have no problem with a player transferring after the resignation/firing/hiring away of a head coach, and I don't think they should be forced to sit out a season if that is why they transfer. If a player came to a specific school because of that coach, and that coach leaves, they should be able to as well.

I don't agree.
04-16-2014 03:38 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 03:25 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  Well, they aren't bound for 4-5 years. An athlete can transfer at any point, even under the current rules. Sometimes there are penalties, sometimes not. Either way, "bound for four or five years" is not an accurate description. Most transferring players end up getting releases, so a redshirt season is the extent of the penalty.

I just don't have much sympathy for the likes of Dylan Ennis, who gave the impression that he never saw Rice as anything but a stepping stone. For Rice, enrolling an athlete is an investment. Not just the scholarship, but also the coaching, tutoring, and travel. The total financial investment for Rice is in six digits per MBB player per year. Plus, admittance into Rice has a value that is hard to quantify. For that entire class of Rice signees, the school got very little in return for its investment. Even though Ennis had to sit out a year, Rice did more for him than he did for Rice.

There are lots of schools with budgets comparable to or tighter than Rice, but they continue to make those investments, knowing that some recruits won't pan out, because they hope it will be offset by the ones who do.

My concern is that if transfer restrictions are eliminated, then stepping-stone will become the norm. (It's already becoming common, even with the current rules.) If stepping stone becomes the norm, then there is little reason for these schools to make the investment in the first place. Players will either not pan out, or quickly depart for greener pastures. The gap between power programs and the rest will widen. With so little upside for most schools, why should they continue to make the investment? In the long run, that's not good for most athletes either.

If you want to balance the contracts, it would be much better to enact policies that increase retention -- some might say "loyalty" -- from the school side than to decrease it from the player side.

Very well said.
04-16-2014 03:38 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Obi Update
(04-15-2014 11:00 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  
(04-15-2014 02:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(04-15-2014 02:45 PM)Barrett Wrote:  If Obi doesn't want to play for Rice anymore, that's fine and I wish him all the best. I do hope, however, that he doesn't get a waiver, and to the extent Rice can, that it oppose any waiver. There needs to be a deterrent to these kids transferring simply because they want greener pastures.

I have no problem with a player transferring after the resignation/firing/hiring away of a head coach, and I don't think they should be forced to sit out a season if that is why they transfer. If a player came to a specific school because of that coach, and that coach leaves, they should be able to as well.

He knew the background when he came here and took the chance, so no special treatment, IMO! Do you come for an education which will last a lifetime, or to play a sport which will last very few years? I have no sympathy for this...if he wants to leave, don't let the door hit you in the butt!!

Amen!
04-16-2014 03:44 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 01:43 PM)gsloth Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 01:11 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 04:27 AM)I45owl Wrote:  How difficult would it be for a school to hire a coach plus starting five in that situation? Given the circus atmosphere with the current situation, is there much doubt that would happen if the NCAA were to so transparently signal that school has little to do with NCAA basketball?

Not very difficult, not much doubt.

Is that really much different than what Coach Calipari did when he moved from Memphis to Kentucky? Look at the commit dates on 4 of the 6 freshmen.

Yes. (1) the players had not yet enrolled. (2) they never had any intention of going to class anyways.

(04-16-2014 02:22 PM)jh Wrote:  And I absolutely do not believe that transfer restrictions are put in place for the good of the athlete. The NCAA is an association of schools, not athletes. Their rules are designed to protect and promote the interests of their members, just as they should be ...

Likewise, prohibitions about giving recruits shiny new automobiles are also not put in place for the good of the athlete, as are other rules...
04-16-2014 03:48 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Obi Update
I think that more of there should be more restrictions/penalties on the schools than on the players. When a D1 school gives out a scholarship, that scholarship should be used up until the player graduates or for five years, whichever comes first. If the player goes pro, drop out, or transfers out of D1 before graduating, too bad for the school. The school is down a scholarship for the remainder of the five year period. If the player transfers to another D1 school (say after two years), then other school would have to agree to obligate a scholarship until graduation or for the remaining years and then the original school would get those years back.

This would work well in my fantasy world where everyone agreed that colleges should be educational institutions first.
04-16-2014 04:11 PM
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Kayjay Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Obi Update
I did some digging on the internet to see if the "epidemic" of transfers is as prevalent as we fear around D-1 basketball, since Rice is certainly having what feels like more than their fair share of transfers from the program, as has been well documented over the past few years. According to Jeff Goodman at ESPN, there have been at least 352 transfers announced since the beginning of the 2013-2014 season, including 60 in-season transfers and 292 announced since season end. That averages out to 1 per team for the academic year. (351 D-1 teams). (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketba...basketball)

If you assume that there are usually 12 players on each D-1 roster, that means there are approximately 4,212 players competing at this level, so approximately 8% transfer each year, or at least this is true for 2013-2014.

I also found out that according to a 2012 study by the National Association of College Admissions Counseling, approximately 1 out of every three college students transfer from one school to another over a 4-year period. Assuming the 8% basketball transfer rate is consistent, it looks like (on the surface) the transfer rate of D-1 basketball players somewhat mirrors the general student population.

Granted that D-1 hoops players usually have scholarships and the comparison is looking at the general population, not just students that receive some form of financial assistance such as a scholarship, but the behavior seems somewhat consistent.

There were comments made earlier in this thread hoping that Coach Rhoades is able to create an environment and culture within the basketball program where student-athletes want to complete their eligibility and graduate from Rice. That is my hope as well. It will take much more than winning ball games, although that will be an essential step. I
04-16-2014 04:38 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 03:25 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  Well, they aren't bound for 4-5 years. An athlete can transfer at any point, even under the current rules. Sometimes there are penalties, sometimes not. Either way, "bound for four or five years" is not an accurate description. Most transferring players end up getting releases, so a redshirt season is the extent of the penalty.

Yes they are. Except in unusual circumstances, an athlete is penalized for transferring, even after the original one-year commitment is over. The athlete is bound by his original agreement for four or five years. Yes, he can choose to transfer and accept the penalty, but that is part of the agreement, not a sign that he isn't bound by it.

On the other hand, at the end of every year, the school is given the option to renew the scholarship, with no penalty for choosing not to renew.

Quote:I just don't have much sympathy for the likes of Dylan Ennis, who gave the impression that he never saw Rice as anything but a stepping stone. For Rice, enrolling an athlete is an investment. Not just the scholarship, but also the coaching, tutoring, and travel. The total financial investment for Rice is in six digits per MBB player per year. Plus, admittance into Rice has a value that is hard to quantify. For that entire class of Rice signees, the school got very little in return for its investment. Even though Ennis had to sit out a year, Rice did more for him than he did for Rice.
There are lots of schools with budgets comparable to or tighter than Rice, but they continue to make those investments, knowing that some recruits won't pan out, because they hope it will be offset by the ones who do.

What about schools like Rice that have cut athletes when injuries and coaching changes made them expendable? Why are schools like that worthy of sympathy? Why can a school upgrade athletes but athletes can't upgrade schools?

I'm not sure what coaching (judging by the way people on this board talked about Braun, are you sure this was a positive?), tutoring, and travel have to do with anything. That was all part of the agreement for the year, an agreement that Ennis fulfilled.

And if you believe that college athletics play an important role in promoting the university, I'm not sure your balancing is correct. Ennis played on the second-highest profile team at Rice--that has to count for something. Plus, a recent report from Drexell and the National College Players Association (shaker of salt in order) found the average basketball player was worth $375,000 per year (per year or per four years isn't entirely clear from the articles I've seen and I haven't seen a link to the actual report). While that is likely exaggerated, it does suggest that college basketball players are worth more than they are getting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/earl...ete-worth/

Quote:My concern is that if transfer restrictions are eliminated, then stepping-stone will become the norm. (It's already becoming common, even with the current rules.) If stepping stone becomes the norm, then there is little reason for these schools to make the investment in the first place. Players will either not pan out, or quickly depart for greener pastures. The gap between power programs and the rest will widen. With so little upside for most schools, why should they continue to make the investment? In the long run, that's not good for most athletes either.

College sports are big businesses (at least the ones subject to transfer restrictions). There are plenty of incentives to keep playing. The BCS widened the gap between the haves and the have nots, yet I'm pretty sure more schools have joined Division I than dropped out during the BCS era.

Quote:If you want to balance the contracts, it would be much better to enact policies that increase retention -- some might say "loyalty" -- from the school side than to decrease it from the player side.

I disagree that this could be done effectively. With four-year agreements there is too much potential for abuse on the athletes end. Schools should be able to cut under-performing athletes and troublemakers. A "for cause" exemption might work but would depend on the NCAA turning into a transparent and impartial adjudicator, something I just can't see happening. Rather, I think both sides should be able to correct their mistakes.
04-16-2014 05:41 PM
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Bay Area Owl Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Obi Update
I often wonder why D1 head coaches are on contracts rather than being hired 'at will'. I think the reasoning is that the head coaches are supposed to be committed to a set term with the program for reasons of recruiting and retaining players. It seems these contracts work very much in favor of the coaches rather than the schools. A coach being able to bring 'his' players to another school without any transfer penalty would give the coaches even more leverage against the schools. The coaches' compensation insanity would get even worse.

For schools such as Rice that are more likely to honor the 4-5 years of a scholarship, strong transfer penalties work in their favor. If a school pulls a scholarship, that player should be able to transfer more easily, but a school should have some protections for their 'investment' as Gravy notes.
04-16-2014 05:47 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Obi Update
Maybe I'm naïve, and admittedly follow football at a higher level than basketball.

But when I see posts about Rice 'cutting' players due to injury, I feel like I need clarification or explanation.

A year ago, we made news because Bailiff honored an offer to a high school player who subsequently had a medical condition that restricted him to a role as student trainer (IIRC). I assumed the University had some form of aid for him that didn't impact the scholarship limit, but I guess I wasn't even clear on that.

At any rate, do people really get 'cut' in the sense of losing scholarship and aid? Do players who have career ending injuries have their scholarships pulled?

I thought Rice generally honored scholarships (it seems we have seniors graduate each year who had very little playing time), or provided workarounds where people weren't forced to leave the school.

I'm not talking about academic casualties or people who get in the serious trouble with the law. I'm talking about career-ending injuries, or a player whose ability is exceeded by others (in reality or perception) and who just doesn't get playing time.

The Rice football (or basketball) team pulls scholarships and says 'good luck, hope you have enough cash to stay here'? (I could understand encouraging a transfer - - but in the case of basketball, I get the impression the moves over the last few years were not wanted by the coach, and were initiated because the players 'could do better'.) Really?
04-16-2014 06:07 PM
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RE: Obi Update
Rick Gerlach, it's happened at least once during the Bailiff era. I have no idea how often it happens. I only heard about this because it made the news after the lawsuit was filed and I saw an article while looking for something else.

Quote:Prior to Agnew’s sophomore season, coach Todd Graham left Rice for Tulsa. Agnew struggled to find playing time under new coach David Bailiff and also encountered medical problems, including shoulder and ankle injuries that required surgery.
Agnew was informed he no longer had a roster spot and his scholarship would not be renewed for his junior season, according to the lawsuit. He appealed and had his scholarship reinstated, despite no longer being on the team.
Agnew was forced to pay tuition and expenses his senior year, the lawsuit said.
http://www.chron.com/sports/rice/article...706873.php

Agnew sued the NCAA for antitrust violations and lost. This description is from the background facts in the Seventh Circuit opinion.

Quote:During his sophomore year, Agnew suffered a series of football-related injuries. The injuries, along with a coaching change at Rice, resulted in the school's decision not to renew Agnew's scholarship for his junior year. Agnew successfully appealed this decision and received one more year-long scholarship, but he was unable to acquire a scholarship for his senior year.
Agnew v. Nat'l Collegiate Athletic Ass'n, 683 F.3d 328, 332 (7th Cir. 2012)
http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FCO%...%20ASS%27N
04-16-2014 06:51 PM
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Gravy Owl Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  What about schools like Rice that have cut athletes when injuries and coaching changes made them expendable? Why are schools like that worthy of sympathy?

They aren't.

Quote:I'm not sure what coaching (judging by the way people on this board talked about Braun, are you sure this was a positive?), tutoring, and travel have to do with anything.

They are part of the investment that Rice made in those players.

Quote:That was all part of the agreement for the year, an agreement that Ennis fulfilled.

The sit-out year was part of the same agreement, an agreement that Rice and the NCAA fulfilled.

Quote:And if you believe that college athletics play an important role in promoting the university, I'm not sure your balancing is correct. Ennis played on the second-highest profile team at Rice--that has to count for something. Plus, a recent report from Drexell and the National College Players Association (shaker of salt in order) found the average basketball player was worth $375,000 per year (per year or per four years isn't entirely clear from the articles I've seen and I haven't seen a link to the actual report). While that is likely exaggerated, it does suggest that college basketball players are worth more than they are getting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/earl...ete-worth/

For all we know, those numbers could be the estimated total value of the program divided by the number of players -- ignoring all the costs of actually running the program. It might not even be within an order of magnitude of the actual value added by the players.

There are a lot of programs that are barely making ends meet, even with subsidies from the universities for promotional value.

Quote:College sports are big businesses (at least the ones subject to transfer restrictions). There are plenty of incentives to keep playing. The BCS widened the gap between the haves and the have nots, yet I'm pretty sure more schools have joined Division I than dropped out during the BCS era.

Arguably, the BCS has been good for the lower-level FBS conferences -- it gave them opportunities to major bowls and a small piece of the pie even when they didn't make it, neither of which they had in the pre-BCS world.

The BCS certainly widened the gap between FBS and FCS, which explains why schools moved up.

It's not comparable to making all players free agents.
04-16-2014 07:42 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 06:51 PM)jh Wrote:  Rick Gerlach, it's happened at least once during the Bailiff era. I have no idea how often it happens. I only heard about this because it made the news after the lawsuit was filed and I saw an article while looking for something else.

Quote:Prior to Agnew’s sophomore season, coach Todd Graham left Rice for Tulsa. Agnew struggled to find playing time under new coach David Bailiff and also encountered medical problems, including shoulder and ankle injuries that required surgery.
Agnew was informed he no longer had a roster spot and his scholarship would not be renewed for his junior season, according to the lawsuit. He appealed and had his scholarship reinstated, despite no longer being on the team.
Agnew was forced to pay tuition and expenses his senior year, the lawsuit said.
http://www.chron.com/sports/rice/article...706873.php

Agnew sued the NCAA for antitrust violations and lost. This description is from the background facts in the Seventh Circuit opinion.

Quote:During his sophomore year, Agnew suffered a series of football-related injuries. The injuries, along with a coaching change at Rice, resulted in the school's decision not to renew Agnew's scholarship for his junior year. Agnew successfully appealed this decision and received one more year-long scholarship, but he was unable to acquire a scholarship for his senior year.
Agnew v. Nat'l Collegiate Athletic Ass'n, 683 F.3d 328, 332 (7th Cir. 2012)
http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FCO%...%20ASS%27N

I do remember this coming up now. It seemed odd then, seems odd now. I wonder if other offers were made or if there were other circumstances, either or both of which were deemed unimportant in the court case?

Regardless, doesn't sound like good form. On the limited information here, would say Rice did the wrong thing, but obviously don't have anywhere near the whole story.

Would obviously like to know if that was a one-off, with other circumstances, or if this is a routine practice. Also, if the lawsuit sided with Agnew in part, on whatever basis, did that effectively restrict the practice going forward, or is the fact that he paid for his senior year evidence of the fact that the decision was limited by circumstances of the individual case and did not impact a school's ability to pull a scholarship? If the latter, how frequently does Rice invoke that ability?

Obviously if a scholarship is pulled (by any school, 'Bama on down) there should be no impediment to an athlete's transfer or any 'waiting' period before they can compete for another school.
04-16-2014 07:52 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 07:42 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(04-16-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  What about schools like Rice that have cut athletes when injuries and coaching changes made them expendable? Why are schools like that worthy of sympathy?
They aren't.

Then I am really confused why you have a problem with what Ennis did.

Quote:
Quote:I'm not sure what coaching (judging by the way people on this board talked about Braun, are you sure this was a positive?), tutoring, and travel have to do with anything.
They are part of the investment that Rice made in those players.

They were part of the compensation Rice paid for services rendered. That doesn't give them any claim to his future services.

Quote:
Quote:That was all part of the agreement for the year, an agreement that Ennis fulfilled.
The sit-out year was part of the same agreement, an agreement that Rice and the NCAA fulfilled.

I agree that it's part of the agreement. That's one of the things that makes it a bad agreement, unfairly penalizing the athletes. That's why I said it was the kind of provision that made me somewhat supportive of the efforts by athletes to unionize. Collective action meeting collective action.

Quote:
Quote:And if you believe that college athletics play an important role in promoting the university, I'm not sure your balancing is correct. Ennis played on the second-highest profile team at Rice--that has to count for something. Plus, a recent report from Drexell and the National College Players Association (shaker of salt in order) found the average basketball player was worth $375,000 per year (per year or per four years isn't entirely clear from the articles I've seen and I haven't seen a link to the actual report). While that is likely exaggerated, it does suggest that college basketball players are worth more than they are getting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/earl...ete-worth/
For all we know, those numbers could be the estimated total value of the program divided by the number of players -- ignoring all the costs of actually running the program. It might not even be within an order of magnitude of the actual value added by the players.
There are a lot of programs that are barely making ends meet, even with subsidies from the universities for promotional value.

Hey, I said a shaker of salt. I have no idea what your position on the value of NCAA Division I athletics is to Rice, but according to some on here, without NCAA Division I athletics Rice would soon stop being a Tier 1 university. That would support a rather high valuation of his services.
04-16-2014 08:18 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 07:52 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  Also, if the lawsuit sided with Agnew in part, on whatever basis, did that effectively restrict the practice going forward, or is the fact that he paid for his senior year evidence of the fact that the decision was limited by circumstances of the individual case and did not impact a school's ability to pull a scholarship?

I don't think Agnew won any part of his lawsuit. The lawsuit was an antitrust claim against the NCAA for their scholarship policies, not a claim against Rice for pulling his scholarship. I'm pretty sure the part about him appealing and getting his scholarship back for his junior year is talking about an internal appeal at Rice, unrelated to the litigation.
04-16-2014 08:23 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 06:51 PM)jh Wrote:  Rick Gerlach, it's happened at least once during the Bailiff era. I have no idea how often it happens. I only heard about this because it made the news after the lawsuit was filed and I saw an article while looking for something else.

Well, that's Agnew's side of the story. I was always skeptical for a few reasons, one of which is that there have been plenty of football players who were given non-athletic scholarships after career-ending injuries.

The Braun era in MBB is a different matter. I find it hard to believe that Bolte, Eversley, Edomwonyi, Holland, Abraham, and Reynolds all left the program completely voluntarily when the program appeared to be on the upswing. Unlike the later, more publicized departures, none of them transferred up. (It's also worth noting that player attrition was one of the Cal fans' complaints about Braun.) As much as I was bummed by the 2011 mass exodus, I always felt it was something of a comeuppance for Braun and Rice.

I'm hoping that under Rhoades, there will be more mutual appreciation between the players and the program/school.
04-16-2014 08:35 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Obi Update
(04-16-2014 08:18 PM)jh Wrote:  Then I am really confused why you have a problem with what Ennis did.

Ennis and Rice Basketball (in the Greenspan-Braun-Morcos era) both behaved in ways that I think should not be encouraged.

Quote:They were part of the compensation Rice paid for services rendered.

Services which included:
1. Educate Dylan Ennis
2. Make Dylan Ennis a better basketball player
3. Provide a platform for Dylan Ennis's skills to be seen by a wider audience

Quote:I agree that it's part of the agreement. That's one of the things that makes it a bad agreement, unfairly penalizing the athletes. That's why I said it was the kind of provision that made me somewhat supportive of the efforts by athletes to unionize. Collective action meeting collective action.

I agree that the current system is unfair to athletes who get pushed out.

I do not think it is unfair to an athlete who uses the school that invested in him as a stepping stone. (And I'm not saying that should be impossible, just that it shouldn't be encouraged more than it already is.)

Quote:Hey, I said a shaker of salt. I have no idea what your position on the value of NCAA Division I athletics is to Rice, but according to some on here, without NCAA Division I athletics Rice would soon stop being a Tier 1 university. That would support a rather high valuation of his services.

The likes of Ndukwe Kalu, Jose Cruz Jr., Marla Brumfield, Morris Almond, and James Casey provided a great deal of value to Rice. At least some of them continue to do so.

Dylan Ennis, little to none. Certainly less than Rice did for him.
04-16-2014 11:03 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Obi Update
Just saw a note on the Twitter feed of recruiting guy Alex Kline that "Rice transfer Drew Bender has received an offer from Northern Colorado".

Did I miss that Bender was leaving?
04-16-2014 11:14 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Obi Update
Interesting potential change in hardship transfer rules may be coming - no immediate eligibility (must sit), but get an extra year of eligibility.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...ip-waivers
04-18-2014 01:15 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Obi Update
(04-18-2014 01:15 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Interesting potential change in hardship transfer rules may be coming - no immediate eligibility (must sit), but get an extra year of eligibility.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...ip-waivers

Per ESPN's Jeff Goodman, Sean Obi has committed to Duke. Color me surprised. I thought Obi was a nice player, but not "Duke" good.
04-21-2014 07:32 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Obi Update
I'm stunned too. I just hope he actually works hard on his conditioning and defense over the next year (I am assuming he sits out a year - Duke has the top big guy in the country coming in and he can't compete against that). Maybe if he puts in the hard work, he can transform his body a bit and be ready for tougher competition. Sean has nice offensive skills and a soft touch around the basket, but when he went against decent big guys this past year, he had a tendency to get frustrated.

So far it hasn't worked for Dylan Ennis. I'm not sure it will work out well for Obi, but good luck to him I guess.
04-21-2014 07:54 PM
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