I have always viewed Northwestern as the last remaining program that truly embraces the concept of a student athlete. I could not care less if it was Ohio State, Oregon, Texas, or Alabama who were getting sued. Those programs have done more than enough to warrant this whereas NW always seemed to be the one program hellbent on doing things the right way despite being surrounded by schools wanting to stretch the rules as much as possible.

-They had the highest GSR (graduation success rate) in 2013. 97% average. 12/19 sports reach 100% and their football team was at 97% as well. in the last 3 years NW has been 1st or tied for 1st in GSR.

-They are the only P5 program (to my knowledge at least) that still allows students free admittance to football games.

I don't feel anything for NW.

If they truly believed in the "student-athlete" they'd have done what the Ivy League and Chicago have done. But they didn't. And they've been part of a conference that's raided two other conferences for schools in recent years.

Also, what do you mean by free admission? That includes no student athletic fees as well as no cost for admission?

(03-26-2014 08:57 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  I don't feel anything for NW.

If they truly believed in the "student-athlete" they'd have done what the Ivy League and Chicago have done. But they didn't. And they've been part of a conference that's raided two other conferences for schools in recent years.

Also, what do you mean by free admission? That includes no student athletic fees as well as no cost for admission?

My sentiments exactly.

(03-26-2014 08:57 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Also, what do you mean by free admission? That includes no student athletic fees as well as no cost for admission?

NW charges an athletic fee just like most schools, however you don't have to buy football tickets. Anyone with a NW student ID can simply walk up to the stadium and get in. Most p5 schools charge around $200 for student season tickets. Michigan is $280 & colorado is at $175. colorado has a student athletic fee of $28, northwestern $45, and michigan I don't believe has an athletic fee. seems pretty clear to me which school has the best deal.

(03-26-2014 08:57 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  I don't feel anything for NW.

If they truly believed in the "student-athlete" they'd have done what the Ivy League and Chicago have done. But they didn't. And they've been part of a conference that's raided two other conferences for schools in recent years.

Yeah, Northwestern can hardly claim to embody the D-III or Ivy League model of student-athletes.

By the way, they've raided three conferences in the last four years.

(03-26-2014 09:17 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-26-2014 08:57 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Also, what do you mean by free admission? That includes no student athletic fees as well as no cost for admission?

NW charges an athletic fee just like most schools, however you don't have to buy football tickets. Anyone with a NW student ID can simply walk up to the stadium and get in. Most p5 schools charge around $200 for student season tickets. Michigan is $280 & colorado is at $175. colorado has a student athletic fee of $28, northwestern $45, and michigan I don't believe has an athletic fee. seems pretty clear to me which school has the best deal.

You only pay for season tickets at VT if you don't want to go through the individual game lottery for free.

Unless it's changed recently, FSU students attend games without being required to purchase tickets. But if NW charges student fees that go towards athletics, it's not actually "free admission".

I'll be more impressed if they actually stick it to these jokers and disband the football team.

Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

(03-26-2014 11:23 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  I'll be more impressed if they actually stick it to these jokers and disband the football team.

That would be hilarious. I couldn't blame them at all if they did.

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

(03-27-2014 12:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

Brian Kelly disagrees with Malcolm Gladwell (whoever he is).


Domer1978 linked this interview from a month ago in another thread.

"Last thing from me. I know it's somewhat of an older issue now, but the young man at Northwestern that was trying to get the union going, did you take the temperature of your team about the issues that he wanted to express with regard to the union? Do you feel like it's something that you need to be concerned about or need to talk to your team about at Notre Dame?


COACH KELLY: I chose not to talk about it with our team. I've talked about it with our staff and certainly our administration and Jack Swarbrick, we've had a conversation about it, because it's real; it would affect, in the national labor relations board finds that private universities that student athletes are workers, it has a substantial impact.

Now, my take is, if it turns out that way, we're going to have a significant advantage over every program in the country, because I don't think we're dropping football any time soon here. So we're going to pay compensation, we're going to pay all those things; I think our scholarship stands by itself, and add that to it, I think we're in a pretty good situation.

I don't think the NCAA is going to allow that to happen. I'm sure as heck Michigan is not going to allow that to happen. I think there's so many hurdles here that I didn't think it was the time or the place to bring it up to our team, because I just think it's‑‑ there's so many hurdles there before it gets to them.

But it was a discussion that I had with our athletic director and our staff, just because if it was brought up by a parent or if it was brought up by somebody, that we were all of the same opinion; and that is, as we stand right now, we believe that the value of a degree from Notre Dame stands by itself and that that should be just compensation for the time that a student athlete gives to Notre Dame."

(03-27-2014 12:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

I love Malcolm Gladwell in general (I've read all of his books), but on the particular subject of football participation, I think he's on the very high end of pessimism.

Plus, the right to collectively bargain is not the same as the ability to collectively bargain successfully. Just look at college basketball and football players' very own pro counterparts in the NBA and NFL, where pro athlete unions with access to the best and most expensive representation available still got rolled over by the owners.

Ultimately, college athletes are going to get paid at some level, especially at the power conference level where the revenue for even the Northwesterns and Wake Forests of the world (much less the likes of Notre Dame, USC and Duke) is still simply waaaaaaaaaay too great in comparison to what they'd ever be realistically paying out to athletes. Anyone that has tried to deny this has been sticking their head in the stand or attempting to perpetuate the myth that college sports are still amateur sports. Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to get paid a *lot* necessarily, as we've seen in the NBA and NFL lockouts. It would be smart for the NCAA and universities to find a way to deal with this separately from the largely messy and inefficient unions instead of continuing with their denial.

Malcolm Gladwell is a generally smart dude that wrote Tipping Point several years back and has been a respected commentator on social, economic, and other topics. He has done some good commentary in podcasts and articles on Grantland. He is being brought up here because he has talked about the trend for a few years now that football is taking a similar path as boxing did decades ago. Essentially, football is a sport that science is showing to be rather dangerous for injuries that people fear the most (head and neck), and most people with means do not encourage their children to participate by choice with a touch of peer pressure. That tipping point (to use a Gladwell term) occurred for boxing several decades ago, which caused the dearth of talent in the sport today. He and others are suggesting that the same thing will happen in football over the next few decades.

EerMeNow, I agree with you. I would be selling the sport at all levels if I were financially invested in it while it is at the apex.

(03-27-2014 12:40 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

I love Malcolm Gladwell in general (I've read all of his books), but on the particular subject of football participation, I think he's on the very high end of pessimism.

Plus, the right to collectively bargain is not the same as the ability to collectively bargain successfully. Just look at college basketball and football players' very own pro counterparts in the NBA and NFL, where pro athlete unions with access to the best and most expensive representation available still got rolled over by the owners.

Ultimately, college athletes are going to get paid at some level, especially at the power conference level where the revenue for even the Northwesterns and Wake Forests of the world (much less the likes of Notre Dame, USC and Duke) is still simply waaaaaaaaaay too great in comparison to what they'd ever be realistically paying out to athletes. Anyone that has tried to deny this has been sticking their head in the stand or attempting to perpetuate the myth that college sports are still amateur sports. Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to get paid a *lot* necessarily, as we've seen in the NBA and NFL lockouts. It would be smart for the NCAA and universities to find a way to deal with this separately from the largely messy and inefficient unions instead of continuing with their denial.

I tend to agree with Gladwell more on this subject than you, Frank, but I totally agree with your other points about the truisms of collective bargaining. This thing is long from over.

(03-27-2014 12:40 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

I love Malcolm Gladwell in general (I've read all of his books), but on the particular subject of football participation, I think he's on the very high end of pessimism.

Plus, the right to collectively bargain is not the same as the ability to collectively bargain successfully. Just look at college basketball and football players' very own pro counterparts in the NBA and NFL, where pro athlete unions with access to the best and most expensive representation available still got rolled over by the owners.

Ultimately, college athletes are going to get paid at some level, especially at the power conference level where the revenue for even the Northwesterns and Wake Forests of the world (much less the likes of Notre Dame, USC and Duke) is still simply waaaaaaaaaay too great in comparison to what they'd ever be realistically paying out to athletes. Anyone that has tried to deny this has been sticking their head in the stand or attempting to perpetuate the myth that college sports are still amateur sports. Now, that doesn't mean that they're going to get paid a *lot* necessarily, as we've seen in the NBA and NFL lockouts. It would be smart for the NCAA and universities to find a way to deal with this separately from the largely messy and inefficient unions instead of continuing with their denial.

Completely agree. See below for an SI article on this.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college...thwestern/

(03-27-2014 12:41 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Malcolm Gladwell is a generally smart dude that wrote Tipping Point several years back and has been a respected commentator on social, economic, and other topics. He has done some good commentary in podcasts and articles on Grantland. He is being brought up here because he has talked about the trend for a few years now that football is taking a similar path as boxing did decades ago. Essentially, football is a sport that science is showing to be rather dangerous for injuries that people fear the most (head and neck), and most people with means do not encourage their children to participate by choice with a touch of peer pressure. That tipping point (to use a Gladwell term) occurred for boxing several decades ago, which caused the dearth of talent in the sport today. He and others are suggesting that the same thing will happen in football over the next few decades.

EerMeNow, I agree with you. I would be selling the sport at all levels if I were financially invested in it while it is at the apex.

Thanks, I had never heard of him (that is ok, he has never heard of me, so we are even).

I may tend to agree on the concussion issue more than the "employee" compensation issue that football may decline and phase out in the future.

Oh well, nothing is permanent in this world.

(03-27-2014 12:11 PM)EerMeNow Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 12:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:44 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 10:10 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Even before this recent ruling, I and some others have suggested that an all private school conference of eastern, non-Ivy schools would be hugely successful, even at a non-scholarship level.

Northwestern
Duke
Wake Forest
Syracuse
Vanderbilt
Miami
Notre Dame
Boston College

There's your 8 schools, just like the Ivy League. Stanford and USC would likely be glad to play most of this gang in football and basketball, and those two schools could park the rest of their sports in the WCC. All of those private schools would be in the same boat, anyway. There would likely be a heartland private conference of Tulsa, Oral Roberts, SMU, TCU, Baylor, Rice, Tulane, and maybe a few more of the private schools of Texas (Abilene, Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist). As with Stanford and USC, some of that crew would probably continue playing football and basketball with the other former P5 schools.

Duke and ND will not quit big time basketball and football, respectively. They have plenty of money to play the game no matter the rules.

None of those power conference schools are going to drop big-time sports, even if they had to start paying pro-level salaries to players. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Malcolm Gladwell disagrees. Personally, I would not be buying long-term stock in any level of football.

Totally agree. It is going to go the way of boxing.