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Heard a good point made- if this holds up, and athletes are employees of the university, then their scholarships and other benefits are taxable income. How many of the football players will be able to stroke a check to the IRS to cover the taxes on about $50,000 worth of income?

(03-28-2014 08:32 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  Heard a good point made- if this holds up, and athletes are employees of the university, then their scholarships and other benefits are taxable income. How many of the football players will be able to stroke a check to the IRS to cover the taxes on about $50,000 worth of income?

I don't think that's the case. As an employee of UAB, I get free tuition and it is non-taxable.

Ten years from now, college athletics will be professional sports.

Hell, they are now, except they don't pay the athletes. Here's an interesting anecdote:

I listen to Chris Hardwick's podcast The Nerdist. He recently had former Minnesota punter Chris Kluwe on as a guest, and he spent a good deal of time talking about his dismissal from the Vikings because of his support of the gay marriage initiative in Minnesota. As part of that, he also talked about how his entire life had been spent devoted to him becoming the best punter he could be. As part of that, he talked about his college career, and how he wanted to get a degree in computer science. He asked his coach if he could skip practice to study for a major test the next day. The coach's response: "You aren't here to learn, you are here to play football. Take classes that don't require you study."

He changed majors that afternoon, switching to history and political science, two majors he described as "needing very little original thought or critical thinking." He added there's a reason almost all athletes who do actually get degrees get them in sports management programs.

(03-28-2014 09:04 AM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  

(03-28-2014 08:32 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  Heard a good point made- if this holds up, and athletes are employees of the university, then their scholarships and other benefits are taxable income. How many of the football players will be able to stroke a check to the IRS to cover the taxes on about $50,000 worth of income?

I don't think that's the case. As an employee of UAB, I get free tuition and it is non-taxable.

Whether it is taxable will come down to how the university classifies it. Right now, they call it a "scholarship," and therefore it is non-taxable. If the university is forced to classify the athlete as an employee, then all they have to do is reclassify it as wages. Or, even more likely, the IRS could change the regulations to classify it as income.

(03-27-2014 03:17 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The money sloshing around the system is not a separate issue. It's exactly why these guys have done this! Good grief, the depths that people are happy to see others and themselves get screwed to enrich those at the top mystifies me. Some coach was quoted as saying there's a sense of "entitlement" that needs to be flushed out. This, an industry where the labor gets no salary and the coaches are making millions.

To say they get no "salary" is both true and untrue. Right now they don't receive taxable income but they receive a rather substantial package of benefits that others have listed. I will agree that spending 50-60 hours a week during camp is unacceptable and that should be addressed immediately by the NCAA. There are things that can be done that would allow players to know the value of what their getting and would be of minimal cost.

-Fully itemize the value of the scholarship. Tuition, books, tutoring, medical care, food, housing. Students and families could know he dollar amount of these if they had to go out and buy them on the open market,

-A stipend based on seniority and academic progress. Start at 1200 a year (or whatever amount is deemed reasonable). As the student progresses the stipend can be raised. This is where the NCAA can help offset some of the cost to keep as many students involved as possible

-During the students senior year give them an option. Keep your stipend or work part time in a job related to your major. If you can make a million dollars a year working part time more power to you, we chose the wrong major.

-Fully enforce the time requirements the NCAA has in place year round. But allow coaches to use some of that time for classroom instruction and meetings during the offseason. Games like football are cerebral and should be treated as such.

(03-28-2014 09:28 AM)BatesUAB Wrote:  Whether it is taxable will come down to how the university classifies it. Right now, they call it a "scholarship," and therefore it is non-taxable. If the university is forced to classify the athlete as an employee, then all they have to do is reclassify it as wages. Or, even more likely, the IRS could change the regulations to classify it as income.

Well, if I take classes as an employee of UAB and they pay my tuition the word scholarship is never mentioned anywhere in any documentation that I have access to. I have to keep my grades at a certain level or they won't pay so maybe legally it is a scholarship? I don't know how it's counted on the books. I just know I can take a full time load of classes and UAB will pay for it, and I don't pay a dime of taxes on it.

Education costs are tax-deductible anyway so even if it were "income" it seems like they could immediately deduct it. Everything is in turmoil so what likely will happen is that currently it's tax-free and at some point the IRS will take another look at it and change it or not.

(03-28-2014 09:47 AM)biglizard Wrote:  

(03-27-2014 03:17 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The money sloshing around the system is not a separate issue. It's exactly why these guys have done this! Good grief, the depths that people are happy to see others and themselves get screwed to enrich those at the top mystifies me. Some coach was quoted as saying there's a sense of "entitlement" that needs to be flushed out. This, an industry where the labor gets no salary and the coaches are making millions.

To say they get no "salary" is both true and untrue. Right now they don't receive taxable income but they receive a rather substantial package of benefits that others have listed. I will agree that spending 50-60 hours a week during camp is unacceptable and that should be addressed immediately by the NCAA. There are things that can be done that would allow players to know the value of what their getting and would be of minimal cost.

-Fully itemize the value of the scholarship. Tuition, books, tutoring, medical care, food, housing. Students and families could know he dollar amount of these if they had to go out and buy them on the open market,

-A stipend based on seniority and academic progress. Start at 1200 a year (or whatever amount is deemed reasonable). As the student progresses the stipend can be raised. This is where the NCAA can help offset some of the cost to keep as many students involved as possible

-During the students senior year give them an option. Keep your stipend or work part time in a job related to your major. If you can make a million dollars a year working part time more power to you, we chose the wrong major.

-Fully enforce the time requirements the NCAA has in place year round. But allow coaches to use some of that time for classroom instruction and meetings during the offseason. Games like football are cerebral and should be treated as such.

You mentioned medical care. Are the universities required to give them medical care or is it just something they do to keep their athletes healthy and they could drop it if it became expensive? Someone on the radio yesterday mentioned way back in the 20s or 30s the term "student-athlete" was coined or was legally organized in such a way that they were not employees specifically so they didn't have to offer health insurance, and that health insurance was one of the reasons the NW guys were trying to organize. I have no idea if part or all of that is true, but someone said it out loud so I thought I'd mention it.

Also, it will be interesting how minimum wage laws will play into this. Does an athletic scholarship meet minimum wage? $15,080 is approximately what minimum wage would be for a 40 hour work week.

There is so much over reaction in this thread based on no information

Most of the comments over this court case are pure uninformed reaction.

I think that the root of the sympathy for the players is that the NCAA and the universities make millions, hell, the NCAA billions, there are many HC's getting multi-million dollar contracts, and the guys who are the actual product sold don't see a dime.

Yeah, I know they get an education, at least some of them... but it has to be hard knowing how many dollars your sweat and in some cases permanent bodily injury are generating when you see none of them.

Basically, as things stand, college athletics is minor league professional sports and a pro developmental league - except that the players don't get paid.

All scholarship monies are paid by the Athletic Department to the university with essentially none going to the athlete. How much should you owe in income taxes if your pay check was handed over to a third party and you got none of it?

As far as getting an education is concerned, that coach who suggested an easier major was probably what most "S-A"s get told when they go to a college advisor. Take the easiest route to staying eligible because you are primarily brought here to play a sport, not to become a chemical engineer (or some other more challenging regimen).

You mentioned medical care. Are the universities required to give them medical care or is it just something they do to keep their athletes healthy and they could drop it if it became expensive? Someone on the radio yesterday mentioned way back in the 20s or 30s the term "student-athlete" was coined or was legally organized in such a way that they were not employees specifically so they didn't have to offer health insurance, and that health insurance was one of the reasons the NW guys were trying to organize. I have no idea if part or all of that is true, but someone said it out loud so I thought I'd mention it.

Also, it will be interesting how minimum wage laws will play into this. Does an athletic scholarship meet minimum wage? $15,080 is approximately what minimum wage would be for a 40 hour work week.
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Both valid questions. Since athletic departments contract with providers my assumption is that care is provided to athletes as part of the package. Could be wrong but I don't think so. As far as the minimum wage issue that's where enforcing the time limits on coaches and full disclosure to the value of the package is important.

It's likely to be years before this thing is finally resolved. But I think we both agree there has got to be a better way to do things. It's an opportunity for the NCAA to remake it's current model.

So now when the Northwestern team goes 5-7 next season , can the team be let go for nonperformance?

(03-28-2014 05:01 PM)BlazerPhil Wrote:  So now when the Northwestern team goes 5-7 next season , can the team be let go for nonperformance?

Since all present athletic scholarships are renewed annually - or NOT - any number of the school's players could be terminated "at will". Now their ability to replace them at 25 maximum per year might give them some pause - and if they are not "in good academic standing", they may cause the school some APR problems as happened to UAB when Callaway ran a bunch off.

(03-28-2014 05:01 PM)BlazerPhil Wrote:  So now when the Northwestern team goes 5-7 next season , can the team be let go for nonperformance?

Schollys are renewed year to year. Any kid on scholarship can find his scholarship not renewed for whatever reason.

Generally does not happen that way, but it can and it has.

Then there is Nick Satan and the "medical waivers" that clear a kid off the team roster while still paying for his school, if they want/need a roster slot.

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