UNC not alone in academics with athletics struggle
HBO’s Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel will tackle this issue Tuesday night at 10 p.m. in approximately a 14-minute segment titled Gaming the Sys tem, a look at NCAA student-athlete academic reform ( watch the trailer here). Yes, UNC is included. But so are several other prominent schools, too.

The piece opens with former Memphis football player Dasmine Cathey, who came to Memphis in 2008 and graduated in Dec. 2011 despite failing 13 classes and racking up seven Ds. He goes into his room and pulls out a shoebox full of Dr. Suess-type books. He then explains how he would lock himself in his room, pull out the books, and try to teach himself to read.

Remember, he graduated from Memphis.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/03/24/3...rylink=cpy

Jeebus.

People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

That's why using graduation rates to determine which schools are performing the best academically is a JOKE! Of course schools are going to push kinds through when the choice is that or loss of scholarships. The NCAA is literally incentivizing cheating.

There is a lot more of this to come.

It's happening in a lot of places and a lot of places you wouldn't guess.

The sooner this gets brought to the light the better.

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

Chapel Hill is the very definition of "loss of institutional control", yet nothing really happens to them. Sure it happens at other institutions but that's a cop out. Other schools don't try to emit a "public ivy" persona, etc. At least that silly idea if forever gone.

USNews.com......but wait, they want to be us!

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

(03-25-2014 09:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

JR every program in the SEC has a cheating academic culture for playas.
Even Michigan, a public "Ivy", has a major for dummies. This isn't about Brooks, Newton or Bo Jackson, it is about a University making sure an incoming student athlete is worthy. We all know what this is about, getting vastly undereducated blacks into revenue producing college sports programs. Prop 48, which tried to address this, just led more creative cheating.

(03-25-2014 09:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

JR every program in the SEC has a cheating academic culture for playas.
Even Michigan, a public "Ivy", has a major for dummies. This isn't about Brooks, Newton or Bo Jackson, it is about a University making sure an incoming student athlete is worthy. We all know what this is about, getting vastly undereducated blacks into revenue producing college sports programs. Prop 48, which tried to address this, just led more creative cheating.

Where's the proof of your claims? I'll wait. BTW I traveled the Southeast for 20 years and turned in many programs. Cheating in recruiting is one thing, academic fraud is quite another. Your saying so doesn't make it so. This isn't the Spin Room. If you make a claim back it up. If it is your opinion then say so.

"since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues."

Well sure, if you don't count Thomas Petee's directed readings . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports...uburn.html

(03-25-2014 09:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

JR every program in the SEC has a cheating academic culture for playas.
Even Michigan, a public "Ivy", has a major for dummies. This isn't about Brooks, Newton or Bo Jackson, it is about a University making sure an incoming student athlete is worthy. We all know what this is about, getting vastly undereducated blacks into revenue producing college sports programs. Prop 48, which tried to address this, just led more creative cheating.

Where's the proof of your claims? I'll wait. BTW I traveled the Southeast for 20 years and turned in many programs. Cheating in recruiting is one thing, academic fraud is quite another. Your saying so doesn't make it so. This isn't the Spin Room. If you make a claim back it up. If it is your opinion then say so.

Athletic admissions should be the same as those for the regular student body. For 25 consecutive years the SEC had at least 1 program on probation for recruiting violations or some sort of academic fraud. Would you agree that admission standards should be the same for athletic schollys?
Even then High Schools cheat.

(03-25-2014 09:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  People act like these stories are new. Here are two articles from 1999 detailing how James Brooks got a degree from Auburn and Dexter Manley got a degree from Oklahoma State. Both were illiterate, and no one else knew until they were forced to tell a judge.

Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

JR every program in the SEC has a cheating academic culture for playas.
Even Michigan, a public "Ivy", has a major for dummies. This isn't about Brooks, Newton or Bo Jackson, it is about a University making sure an incoming student athlete is worthy. We all know what this is about, getting vastly undereducated blacks into revenue producing college sports programs. Prop 48, which tried to address this, just led more creative cheating.

Where's the proof of your claims? I'll wait. BTW I traveled the Southeast for 20 years and turned in many programs. Cheating in recruiting is one thing, academic fraud is quite another. Your saying so doesn't make it so. This isn't the Spin Room. If you make a claim back it up. If it is your opinion then say so.

Seriously JR? The proof is in every damn academic scandal that come out recently from the power (aka Big TV $$$) schools.

(03-25-2014 10:07 PM)Proud Bammer Wrote:  "since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues."

Well sure, if you don't count Thomas Petee's directed readings . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports...uburn.html

The number of tutors used to prop up the athletes were the workaround in the 80's. Independent studies became the ticket in the 90's. While highly suspicious it would be difficult to prove that independent studies for academic hours under the direction of a professor were illegitimate. The issue here is the difference between the records office of a university signing off on a fictitious class with forged grades and forged instructors signatures as is alleged to have happened at North Carolina and which implicitly signifies the highest level of administrative consent and that of professors (at Florida State and Alabama, and Georgia, and others) having athletic department personnel pressure them to keep players eligible, or the assigning of a staff of tutors to help the athlete prepare for take home exams, or the utilization of a professor to to direct independent studies. While all of them have a highly suspicious if not sleazy feel to them, they are still not a matter that approximates all out institutional fraud. It might be said that at least in all other cases the burden of proof was upon the accuser and plausible deniability by the institution was maintained. What gets me is that with the North Carolina case no effort was given at all to maintain a distance between the mainline academic offices of the school and the athletic department, a fact which shocks even me as it pertains to an academic stalwart that should have been working diligently to maintain such a distance. The only conclusion I can draw by the fact that they weren't even trying to maintain a semblance of institutional control boils down to the sheer arrogance of thinking that it would never bite them.

As far as admitting that it is a universal problem and that if affects most if not all P5 sports schools, I freely do so. SuperflyB and others have implied that the problems at North Carolina are universal and what I am stating is that they emphatically are not. Most schools maintain buffers between those who assist the athletes in remaining eligible and the integrity (even if simply feigned) of their academic records and degrees. In this case North Carolina failed even this and that is quite different. It passes being a shade of gray and clearly puts their actions into darkness.

(03-25-2014 10:07 PM)Proud Bammer Wrote:  "since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues."

Well sure, if you don't count Thomas Petee's directed readings . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports...uburn.html

The number of tutors used to prop up the athletes were the workaround in the 80's. Independent studies became the ticket in the 90's. While highly suspicious it would be difficult to prove that independent studies for academic hours under the direction of a professor were illegitimate. The issue here is the difference between the records office of a university signing off on a fictitious class with forged grades and forged instructors signatures as is alleged to have happened at North Carolina and which implicitly signifies the highest level of administrative consent and that of professors (at Florida State and Alabama, and Georgia, and others) having athletic department personnel pressure them to keep players eligible, or the assigning of a staff of tutors to help the athlete prepare for take home exams, or the utilization of a professor to to direct independent studies. While all of them have a highly suspicious if not sleazy feel to them, they are still not a matter that approximates all out institutional fraud. It might be said that at least in all other cases the burden of proof was upon the accuser and plausible deniability by the institution was maintained. What gets me is that with the North Carolina case no effort was given at all to maintain a distance between the mainline academic offices of the school and the athletic department, a fact which shocks even me as it pertains to an academic stalwart that should have been working diligently to maintain such a distance. The only conclusion I can draw by the fact that they weren't even trying to maintain a semblance of institutional control boils down to the sheer arrogance of thinking that it would never bite them.

As far as admitting that it is a universal problem and that if affects most if not all P5 sports schools, I freely do so. SuperflyB and others have implied that the problems at North Carolina are universal and what I am stating is that they emphatically are not. Most schools maintain buffers between those who assist the athletes in remaining eligible and the integrity (even if simply feigned) of their academic records and degrees. In this case North Carolina failed even this and that is quite different. It passes being a shade of gray and clearly puts their actions into darkness.

Trying to pin this kind of thing, failing student athletes, is happening across the country in schools big and small. It's happening everywhere to some degree.

The entire system is a sham when it comes to education. There needs to be a top down review of every school by an independent organization that is going to give us a real picture of the state of higher education for cash producing athletes.

Saying "isn't it wonderful my school isn't doing it as bad as your school" is to miss the entire point. The point is both schools are taking advantage of kids to make money while failing them in the most heinous way. The entire system ought to not tolerate failure of any kind, instead of being cool with a little failure here and there.

You know what they say about the splinter in your eye...

(03-25-2014 10:21 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:52 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 09:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-25-2014 04:01 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Brooks is the polar opposite of the memphis player. Brooks had others take his tests. The Memphis player flunked 13 classes.

I like finding out how people, organizations cheat. UNC created fake classes that nobody went to and they got As and Bs. What did UNC have 54 bogus classes? That is taking it to a different level.

You do realize that Brooks played at Auburn in the late 70's to the early 80's and that since getting hit with a lack of institutional control suit (Pat Dye era which started in the early 80's) we have not been mentioned with regard to academic issues. I'm not saying Auburn is squeaky clean, but this is one area we seemed to have cleaned up. One of the reasons Barkley turned pro as a Junior was that he was facing academic issues. If we had been going to break those rules Barkley would have certainly been one that would have been covered. I knew one of his tutors well. He truly tried hard. I'm glad to see him doing so well and encouraging others to get their education. Bo Jackson came back after his professional career and finished his education. Cam Newton is doing the same in the off season.

JR every program in the SEC has a cheating academic culture for playas.
Even Michigan, a public "Ivy", has a major for dummies. This isn't about Brooks, Newton or Bo Jackson, it is about a University making sure an incoming student athlete is worthy. We all know what this is about, getting vastly undereducated blacks into revenue producing college sports programs. Prop 48, which tried to address this, just led more creative cheating.

Where's the proof of your claims? I'll wait. BTW I traveled the Southeast for 20 years and turned in many programs. Cheating in recruiting is one thing, academic fraud is quite another. Your saying so doesn't make it so. This isn't the Spin Room. If you make a claim back it up. If it is your opinion then say so.

Athletic admissions should be the same as those for the regular student body. For 25 consecutive years the SEC had at least 1 program on probation for recruiting violations or some sort of academic fraud. Would you agree that admission standards should be the same for athletic schollys?
Even then High Schools cheat.

Recruiting violations, yes. Academic fraud against the institution? Cite the cases that led to probation. The distinction is an important one. Especially as it pertains to the North Carolina situation. I can think of two in the past 30 years and in both cases it involved grade leniency by instructors, but not fraudulent classes and forged signatures and grades in the records office. High school cheating is rampant. And it includes grade fixing to get athletes qualified for admittance to P5 schools and G5 schools.

(03-25-2014 10:35 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Trying to pin this kind of thing, failing student athletes, is happening across the country in schools big and small. It's happening everywhere to some degree.

The entire system is a sham when it comes to education. There needs to be a top down review of every school by an independent organization that is going to give us a real picture of the state of higher education for cash producing athletes.

Saying "isn't it wonderful my school isn't doing it as bad as your school" is to miss the entire point. The point is both schools are taking advantage of kids to make money while failing them in the most heinous way. The entire system ought to not tolerate failure of any kind, instead of being cool with a little failure here and there.

You know what they say about the splinter in your eye...

I don't disagree with anything you are saying here H.O.D. I'm merely pointing out the difference between what North Carolina is alleged to have done and that of which others have been guilty. It is a new all time low, in what has been an extremely sleazy history of college athletics. And none of this even addresses situations that amount to institutional prostitution where willing coeds are encouraged to help their schools by pleasing recruits (ESPN touched on this in the Ohio State case and backed away). The thousand dollar handshakes by boosters are passe. Buying cars has given way to accessing jobs for relatives through state favors. Campus guides on visits have turned into campus "escorts". It is all so way out of kilter and disgusting that I would say the public should be outraged, but then we keep electing even worse to congress. Comparisons to the last days of Rome may be inserted by whomever now.

(03-25-2014 03:10 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Remember, he graduated from Memphis.

People said this stuff was going on there for years, and was a big reason the Tigers were stiff-armed from the Big East all that time (as well as the SWC and Big XII). Adding them would be an academic nightmare and they were a perpetual violation machine.

Of course, that didn't stop the Big East from taking other great academic pillars from the mid-south, but the line was drawn somewhere, and Memphis/Memphis State was on the wrong side of it.